any former mormons out there?

[Allweather]

Are you telling me that there were no prophets after Jesus? If you think so, then you don’t know your Bible. Have a look at Acts 13:1; 15:32; 21:10. There were prophets and revelators after Christ came.zerinus

Leaving aside, for now, definitive characterizations of the word “prophet,” since, as you suggest, I don’t know my Bible very well, let me ask you: Did any of the prophets in the three verses you provided reveal prophesies which deviate in any way whatever from what our Lord Jesus Christ revealed?

This is what I’m getting at by bringing up plural marriage. Plural marriage is a disgusting, immoral, criminal thing. It is my understanding ( and I may need some clarification from you) that Joseph Smith taught plural marriage, and that he said he was instructed by God to take wives apart from Emma Hale Smith. It is my understanding that JS was reluctant to do so, but that he did it in obedience to God. This puts it at the level of revelation, rather than just a horny guy wanting to have multiple sex partners. Therefore, JS apparently received revelation that deviates from what our Lord taught about marriage. Right? or Wrong?

 

[zerinus]

Fair enough, I probably heard wrong, and have made a mistake. Perhaps you’d indulge us and tell exactly what Joseph Smith DID say and teach about plural marriage. Thanks.

What Joseph Smith taught was that polygamy was permissible under divine law, if and when God sanctions it or commands it.

zerinus

 

[truthsilence]

scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132
37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.
38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.
39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.
40 I am the Lord thy God, and I gave unto thee, my servant Joseph, an appointment, and restore all things. Ask what ye will, and it shall be given unto you according to my word. …

61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

 

[truthsilence]

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them.
**(Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.268 - p.269, Brigham Young, August 19, 1866)
**

“Patriarchal marriage involves conditions, responsibilities and obligations which do not exist in monogamy, and there are blessings attached to the faithful observance of that law, if viewed only upon natural principles, which must so far exceed those of monogamy, as the conditions responsibilities and power of increase are greater. This is my view and testimony in relation to this matter. I believe it is a doctrine that should be taught and understood”.
**(Journal of Discourses, Vol.20, p.30, Joseph F. Smith, July 7, 1878) **

Some quietly listen to those who speak against the Lord’s servants, against his anointed, against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny “Mormonism,” and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose that doctrine, and the whole of them would be damned. What are you opposing it for? It is a principle that God has revealed for the salvation of the human family. He revealed it to Joseph the Prophet in this our dispensation; and that which he revealed he designs to have carried out by his people.
**(Journal of Discourses, Vol.5, p.204 - p.205, Heber C. Kimball, October 12, 1856) **

Let it be said that the Journal of Discourses is not currently considered to be “official doctrine”. However, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and Joseph F Smith are all former Prophets of the LDS church

 

[Allweather]

What Joseph Smith taught was that polygamy was permissible under divine law, if and when God sanctions it or commands it.

zerinus

I’m assuming that you know exactly, word for word, what he said, and I’d like to know what that is. I don’t have much of a Mormon library here, and what I do have is anti-Mormon, and so I wouldn’t want to rely completely on that. If the texts are too ponderous to quote here, maybe you could just link me to them or tell me where I can find them to read for myself.

BTW I aim to keep this within the bounds of the thing about revelation. I contend that any revelation which contradicts the teachings of Scripture, especially Scriptures which relate the teachings of our Lord, Jesus Christ, is false, and any so-called prophet who issues such a revelation is a false prophet. I just want to know what Joseph Smith taught, in his exact words, and how it is squared with what Jesus taught about marriage, and not only Jesus, but the apostles as well, as recorded in the NT.

 

[truthsilence]

The only reason I’ve posted the above, is so that readers can see for themselves, in context, what Allweather and Zerinus are discussing. This will be my last posting of this nature.

Thank you to all those on this thread who have shared, in Christ, their personal experiences. I pray one day we will all come to the unity of faith. Every knee will bow…

 

[zerinus]

Leaving aside, for now, definitive characterizations of the word “prophet,” since, as you suggest, I don’t know my Bible very well, let me ask you: Did any of the prophets in the three verses you provided reveal prophesies which deviate in any way whatever from what our Lord Jesus Christ revealed?

No; and neither did Joseph Smith.

This is what I’m getting at by bringing up plural marriage. Plural marriage is a disgusting, immoral, criminal thing.

If that is so, then you must believe that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and all the ancient holy men, patriarchs, and prophets were disgusting, immoral, and criminal people, because they all practised polygamy. I can tell you that they were not. Have you not read what the Lord told Abraham? Allow me to remind you: “And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 12:2-3). I should think twice before calling Abraham “disgusting, immoral, and criminal”—unless you want to be cursed of course, if you are not already. Even in the NT polygamy is not condemned. Jesus never condemned it, even though it was practiced among the Jews, and some of His own disciples were probably polygamists. There are even indications that it was practiced in the Christian church after the time of Christ. You seem to be the type of guy who talks first and thinks afterwards. I suggest think first before you let your mouth loos like a rabid animal.

It is my understanding (and I may need some clarification from you) that Joseph Smith taught plural marriage, and that he said he was instructed by God to take wives apart from Emma Hale Smith. It is my understanding that JS was reluctant to do so, but that he did it in obedience to God. This puts it at the level of revelation, rather than just a horny guy wanting to have multiple sex partners.

Yes, Joseph Smith taught plural marriage, and it was a revelation from God.

Therefore, JS apparently received revelation that deviates from what our Lord taught about marriage. Right? or Wrong?

That is a silly question to ask. Whatever comes from you vis-à-vis Mormonism is always wrong!

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

The only reason I’ve posted the above, is so that readers can see for themselves, in context, what Allweather and Zerinus are discussing. This will be my last posting of this nature.

Thanks, truthsilence. Very interesting! I’m sitting here browsing thru D&C section 132. Also very interesting! In the introduction, it says that though the revelation was recorded on 12 July 1843, it is “evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.” This may explain why he was having relations with other women since the mid- to-late 1830s.

In my first read-through, I notice that Emma is threatened with destruction unless she heels to the doctrine. In verse 54: “And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.”

I also notice in verses 62 and 63 that the polygamy is a one-way street. The man may take many wives (virgins) but if any of the women “shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed.”

All investigatores, check this out! Especially the women.

 

[truthsilence]

From our very own "Catholic Answers

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0110qq.asp

Q: A Mormon recently challenged me: Where in the Bible does it say that polygamy is wrong?

A: Be careful of falling into the trap of thinking that every point of faith and morals has to be explicitly attested in Scripture. That isn’t the case. It’s an advantage if one can show Scripture clearly supporting a position, but it isn’t required.

On the subject of polygamy, Scripture indicates that for a time God did tolerate this practice during the Old Testament. However, it was portrayed even then as a negative thing. When Scripture describes the domestic life of polygamists, it brings out consistently the negative effects of polygamy—jealousy, taunting, conflict, favoritism—as different wives and children struggle for position within the family. (Take for example the strife between the wives of Abraham, Jacob, or Elkana; see Gen. 21, 29–30, 1 Sam. 1).

The problems were so clearly recognized that, even if there was not then a flat-out prohibition on the practice, there had to be special legislation concerning polygamy. Thus a husband playing favorites among his wives was not allowed to deprive the children of his first wife their inheritance rights in favor of the children of a more recent wife (Deut. 21:15–16). Kings in particular were forbidden to multiply wives to themselves (Deut. 17:17). Unfortunately, this prohibition was often not followed.

As time progressed, the problems with polygamy became more and more obvious, and it stopped being practiced.

The clincher came in the time of Christ, when Jesus indicated that marriage was to be restored to the state God had intended in Genesis 2. Thus Jesus prohibits divorce (Mark 10:2–9) on the grounds that it was not provided for in God’s original plan. God made one man and one woman to be together. Polygamy is ruled out by the same logic. God’s plan was for Adam and Eve to be together, not for Adam to be married first to Eve and then later to Barbara, and certainly not for Adam to be married to Eve and Barbara at the same time.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[zerinus]

To all my Catholic bretheren here who “get it” -

I want to profoundly than you all for the kind and encouraging comments you have said about my posts.

I walked away yesterday. I was written off as someone who wants to delve into incomprehensible deep theology and as someone who apparently couldn’t see my own hand in front of my face, after presenting what I thought was a simple answer to a certain scripture delimma (did the blind man sin?), and a certain simple theological conclusion (God is greater than everything, including time).

I realize now that some of the things I posted must have been so obvious, so reasonable, and so disturbing that to address them honestly could cause my confronter to have a crisis of faith.

I know how frightening a crisis of faith is. I understand why anyone who is deeply convinced of the truth as it has been presented to him would want to prevent that crisis at any cost, even if it means accepting his church leaders’ avoidance of issues and contradictory explanations for the faith he has been given.

We have people around us who would prefer to remain assured of their faith in simple, but rock-solid, ignorance. Even in the Catholic Church we have them. Saint Thérèse of Lisieux, the Little Flower, comes to mind. Blessed are our bretheren of simple faith; they may have as little capacity as a teacup, but it is completely overflowing. And cursed are those of us who struggle with great barrels that can never seem to be filled enough.

I myself had a crisis of faith as a teenager, when I was confronted with the writings of Erich von Danaken in his book “Chariots of the Gods”, in which I had to face the possibility that everything I had ever been taught, indeed the very core of my faith, could be wrong. I was in shock.

The result for me was a very unsettling several years when my church-going amounted to little more than “going through the motions.” Eventually, von Danaken was exposed as a fraud, and I realized that although he had alternate explanations for Jesus’ miracles (space aliens with advanced technology), he could never explain the ultimate origin of his aliens, nor where and how the universe itself came to be.

And that is how I realized that God must exist, how the universe literally demands a God who is so great that He can create everything that the universe itself can not create. The universe and time can change what already exists, but can not create itself out of nothing. Something greater than what we can sense with our five senses must be out there after all.

After that, it became a historical and scientific search to find out whether real religious truth existed, truth that was unchanging and provable, that did not tap-dance around uncomfortable issues, and that could stand up to the deep theological issues and hard questions with reliable, consistent answers.

The only place I found that truth to fully and completely exist is in the Catholic Church.

Again, a special thanks to my Catholic friends. You have encouraged me to continue.

Nan

You still didn’t answer my queston though. Did God create eternity or not? If He created time, then He must have also created eternity, because time is only a small, incomplete segment of eternity. And if He created eternity, then there must have been a time when He wasn’t eternal!

zerinus

 

[Karin]

“For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife (not wives); and they shall become one flesh (not multiple fleshes)” Genesis 2:24

He shall not have many wives, that may allure his mind, nor immense sums of silver and gold
Deuteronomy 17:17

It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, 1 Timothy 3:2

Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses 1 Timothy 3:12

 

[Allweather]

No; and neither did Joseph Smith.zerinus

OK, but it appears to me that polygamy is a sinful thing. I’m not aware of any teaching of Jesus, or of the Apostles that ratifies polygamy. Going back to the OT, polygamy is related to troubles (which I can amplify for you if you want) such that, rather than being sanctioned and approved by God, it was something he tolerated and was a sign of hardheaded and sinful men. So, please tell us how it is that Joseph Smith is not guilty of issuing false prophesies in the case of polygamy.

 

[zerinus]

OK, but it appears to me that polygamy is a sinful thing. I’m not aware of any teaching of Jesus, or of the Apostles that ratifies polygamy. Going back to the OT, polygamy is related to troubles (which I can amplify for you if you want) such that, rather than being sanctioned and approved by God, it was something he tolerated and was a sign of hardheaded and sinful men. So, please tell us how it is that Joseph Smith is not guilty of issuing false prophesies in the case of polygamy.

If you had read the rest of that post, you should not have needed to ask that question.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

If that is so, then you must believe that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and all the ancient holy men, patriarchs, and prophets were disgusting, immoral, and criminal people, because they all practised polygamy.zerinus

Well, lets just take the first of that list. Abraham. You infer that Abraham was practicing polygamy with Hagar at the command of God. Abraham embraced Hagar at the behest of Sarah, in order to father a son. Abraham and Sarah didn’t have faith to believe that God would provide him a son by her. Moreover, Sarah is shown in Gen 16 as regretting this decision. It caused turmoil in the household. Rather than being a blessing from God, as you Mormons propose, this unholy union between Abraham and Hagar was a source of conflict and sin.

Would you like to explore the other cases?

 

[Karin]

“For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife (not wives); and they shall become one flesh (not multiple fleshes)” Genesis 2:24

He shall not have many wives, that may allure his mind, nor immense sums of silver and gold
Deuteronomy 17:17

It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher,
1 Timothy 3:2

Let deacons be the husbands of one wife: who rule well their children, and their own houses
1 Timothy 3:12

 

[Allweather]

If you had read the rest of that post, you should not have needed to ask that question.

zerinus

Sorry, I tend to take things one item at a time. However, I still do not see where you give chapter and verse where JESUS or the APOSTLES (or, for that matter, anyone in the entire 2000 year history of the Church) teach polygamy. Jesus, rather, does not teach polygamy. Unless I’m missing something. That’s what I’m asking of you, Z. Chapter and verse showing me where Jesus and/or the Apostles teach polygamy.

 

[truthsilence]

Even in the NT polygamy is not condemned. Jesus never condemned it, even though it was practiced among the Jews, and some of His own disciples were probably polygamists. There are even indications that it was practiced in the Christian church after the time of Christ".

References, please.

What you’re trying to tell us is that because Jesus Christ doesn’t flat out say “polygamy is wrong”, you can infer that his own disciples were* polygamists*? Please, tell me, which ones? Please, just where are these indications that you are talking about?

Where in the world do you come up with this stuff?

 

[zerinus]

Well, lets just take the first of that list. Abraham. You infer that Abraham was practicing polygamy with Hagar at the command of God. Abraham embraced Hagar at the behest of Sarah, in order to father a son. Abraham and Sarah didn’t have faith to believe that God would provide him a son by her. Moreover, Sarah is shown in Gen 16 as regretting this decision. It caused turmoil in the household. Rather than being a blessing from God, as you Mormons propose, this unholy union between Abraham and Hagar was a source of conflict and sin.

It was not the cause of conflict and sin. God told Abraham that He would bless his son Ishmael who was born through Hagar, and make him a great nation: “And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. (Genesis 17:20). That promise was indeed fulfilled. Through Ishmael came the Arab nation, with a rich cultural heritage and great history, through whom the world has been greatly blessed.

Would you like to explore the other cases?

I will be glad to! First, more about Abraham. Hagar was not the only polygamous wife that Abraham took. He took more wives and concubines after Ishmael and Isaac were born.

Genesis 25:

1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.

2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.

3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

If Polygamy was such an evil ting as you suggest, why did Abraham not learn his lesson from the first one, and went ahead and married even more wives and concubines than ever before, even after his favourite son Isaac had been born—and all this in his old age! Remember that he was well past a hundred years old by this time.

Another example: when the Lord censured David for his great sin, this is what he said to him through the prophet Nathan:

2 Samuel 12:

8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. {i.e. would have given him more wives and other goodies like it!}

If having plural wives was a curse rather than a blessing, why does God talk of it in such glowing terms as blessings not as coursings?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Sorry, I tend to take things one item at a time. However, I still do not see where you give chapter and verse where JESUS or the APOSTLES (or, for that matter, anyone in the entire 2000 year history of the Church) teach polygamy. Jesus, rather, does not teach polygamy. Unless I’m missing something. That’s what I’m asking of you, Z. Chapter and verse showing me where Jesus and/or the Apostles teach polygamy.

I did not say that they taught polygamy. They did not need to. It was already permissible and practised under their law. But Jesus never condemns it either. Jesus changes or abrogated many of the old Jewish laws; but He never condemned or abrogated polygamy.

zerinus

 

[Karin]

I did not say that they taught polygamy. They did not need to. It was already permissible and practised under their law. But Jesus never condemns it either. Jesus changes or abrogated many of the old Jewish laws; but He never condemned or abrogated polygamy.

zerinus

why does the Bible state the following then (words in red are mine)
“For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife (not wives); and they shall become one flesh (not multiple fleshes)” Genesis 2:24