Any logic behind your decision to be a devout Catholic?

[crazydyl]

I SENT THIS TO MY FRIEND WHO IS ARGUING THAT WE ARE ANIMALS AND THAT THERE IS NO GOD.

We came from nothing?
thekeyboard.org.uk/Where%20universe%20from.htm
‘Could the universe have been created in nothing? No, for the reasons stated above. However, just for the sake of argument, let us imagine it was. If the universe was created in nothing then where was it ‘put’? If somewhere ‘outside’ of nothing, this would require an ‘outside’ to pre-exist, but it could not because that would require a boundary. It can not be ’ put’ within nothing, because containing a universe would no longer be within our definition of nothing.

1. It must be timeless.
2. It must have always existed and could not have been created.
3. It is unchanging.
4. Nothing else can exist.
5. It is unable to create anything.’
   ‘’We are now left with just these two possible solutions, either God created the universe and He always existed, or the universe itself always existed.’’
   ‘‘An infinite eternal unchanging nothing that has always existed and has always contained a finite but unbounded closed universe that constantly changes but is itself eternal. Doesn’t exactly roll of the tongue does it.
   With this model I can detect only one possible problem (I may be wrong of course, you may find many!) and that is the acceptance of the universe having always existed. If I could present a theory that proved this I would expect a Nobel Prize at the very least! Having said that I would suggest that the route to take in order to establish the concept of ‘always’ requires a more precise understanding of exactly what time Time? Is.’’
   Big bang theory
   thekeyboard.org.uk/The%20Big%20Bang%20Theory.htm
   ‘’It is necessary to understand that the Big Bang did not begin as a huge explosion within the universe, the Big Bang created the universe. A popular misconception is that it happened within the universe and that it is expanding through it. ‘’
   Are you saying that we came from a big bang? How are you saying that we came about? The big bang needed something to start it off, so the universe was always around – which is proven to not be the case through SCIENCE – or something that we can’t measure AS SOMETHING and is TIMELESS created us……
   So there is more to life than just us!!!

I THINK THAT I PROVED THAT SOMETHING CREATED US THAT IS NOT WHAT WE SEE IN OUR NORMAL EVERYDAY SURROUNDINGS.

NOW I HAVE TO PROVE TO HER THAT JESUS IS REAL MAYBE HARDER TO PROVE THAN SOMETHING THAT WE CAN’T DETECT CREATED US

 

[crazydyl]

These scientists have proven that the sample that was taken for carbon dating was a repaired piece, because the piece separated whilst being analysed and they noticed some resin which was holding them together. The new piece also had dye on it to look like the rest of the turin shroud. There was also resin that was found to keep the new and old threads entwined.

youtube.com/watch?v=iKj56swhuVQ
youtube.com/watch?v=UiKLcNv_NXk&NR=1
youtube.com/watch?v=llMnmYDXqRg&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=zmO6PRoHkpQ&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=DsMdvSDNvBQ&feature=related

The professor says that if this is no Jesus’ burial shroud, then it is a miracle that they can’t understand how this was created - even in our modern times.

Here is a lot of scientific evidence on the shroud british-israel.ca/shroud.htm

another tv show about the shroud channel4.com/programmes/s…st/4od#2929828

I have proven that Jesus is real, haven’t I?

Surely there is enough scientific evidence here? I’ve proven that the world was created by another dimension and now that Jesus was real, do I not have valid grounds for being a Catholic now? Would it make sense to not be a Catholic?

 

[crazydyl]

:extrahappy: :hypno: :egyptian: :coffeeread:

 

[Bastoune]

Does anyone know of any miracles of The Catholic Church which are like totally impossible, tested and unexplainable, meaning that they couldn’t be trying to trick us?

Well, besides Padre Pio in the very recent past, look at the Eucharistic Miracle in Lanciano, Italy (8th Century), tested in the 1980s with the cardiac flesh of the Lord still in tact and the blood still intact as if just drawn that day:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

But you CANNOT base your faith on “miracles” – Your post made me think of the Lord telling His disciples that even if someone were to come back from the dead (not only HIMSELF, but in Matthew we hear about the dead coming back and preaching after the Lord died in the flesh), people still wouldn’t believe.

As it was stated earlier, people will reject God to justify their own wills and desires.

Why do I as a cradle Catholic believe not only that the Lord is God but that He exists and the Catholic Chuch teaches the fullness of the Faith? Not because of my own feelings or opinions, but given the “proof” through reason (if not the Catholic Church, WHICH faith — and would a God who so loved the world leave His loved ones so clueless and lost as to have to figure things out all alone? And if none of Christianity is correct, than God is really a jerk because I would like to know where He is and if He created us NOT to love us, He is not worthy of praise – why not just destroy Earth? It’s like getting a pet and not taking care of it. Horrible).

But it was through GRACE. A leap of faith, a hope, but mostly because God extended His love to me and I responded.

The key to understanding God and His will, something totally beyond us, is to be HUMBLE. Humility opens so many doors. Accept adversity, although you can question it – but not to be arrogant, only in the quest of understanding.

Love God and if you really start to hate Him, TELL Him.

I tell you, humbly ask God for help and understanding and He WILL give it… just be patient and alert!

If you have trouble understanding nuclear physics, how much moreso the inner-workings of the universe!!! So be humble, be patient, and be loving. God will make everything clear.

 

[geekborj]

The title of the thread says it all

I am finding it difficult living amongst so many people that don’t care about God or don’t believe in Him here in England

Are there solid reasons for bein a Catholic? Like proofs? How can I evangelise when I am struggling with my faith and don’t even know what reasons there are to have the belief systems of a Catholic?

I just want something to show/tell my future kids and other people why to be Catholics, because otherwise there’s no point in me being a Cathiolic, having kids and not telling them to be Catholics and evangelising

1. It is the catholic Church that proposes a very logical and self-coherent truths.
2. It is the catholic Church that Christ has built himself.
3. The church that Christ built was promised not to succumb even to death nor its minions.

Ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you and increase your faith. To evangelize does not necessary mean to “preach” like others do. By living the true Christian Faith is already evangelizing the world.

 

[crazydyl]

I’ve been asking atheists why they don’t believe in God. A big reason is because God allows people to be harmed. Who says how God should be? Did they know previous gods before they existed?

God is not with us and being lovely to us because of the way we are and what happened with Adam and Eve… Atheists see nothing wrong with their actions and this is where they are going wrong. They think that God should be a loving God and with us not causing harm, but they need to look at themselves and think about why God would do that when everyone is behaving how they behave Would God be great to us if we were selfish? No way! Are we selfish? Yes way! Look at how everyone in the world do not help each other out. Look at how we do not give our all to help the poor. Look at how we fight one another. And atheists think that God is not real because He is not loving and nice to us as we are?

Atheists’ problems are that they are not sinners and they are not bad when they are actually evil and selfish. Jesus shows himself to Christians - who atheists believe are lying for some reason - because they are good people who are unselfish and their hearts are unselfish enough for God to be present to them

I have finally got my head around the world Should I move to the Philippines where I hear the people are nice? Or should I stay and have a family in the wicked west?

 

[admonsta]

One other suggestion to add to the mix: if you want logic to argue for Catholicism, read or listen to anything you can find by Peter Kreeft. He is a professor (?) of philosophy, specialising in the Socratic method. He’s great, because he keeps it simple, but makes false arguments very difficult to maintain, because he challenges people to support their own argument.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Admonsta,

Do you have a favorite link for Dr. Kreeft?

Tom

One other suggestion to add to the mix: if you want logic to argue for Catholicism, read or listen to anything you can find by Peter Kreeft. He is a professor (?) of philosophy, specialising in the Socratic method. He’s great, because he keeps it simple, but makes false arguments very difficult to maintain, because he challenges people to support their own argument.

 

[crazydyl]

I like this bit on Peter Kreeft’s website

'C. S. Lewis, who uses this argument in a number of places, summarizes it succinctly:

Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A dolphin wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. (Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, “Hope”) ’

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#9

 

[benedictus2]

Hi, Crazydyl, The Catholic Church has only taken a stand condemining atheistic evolution. As long as God’s Hand is seen as creating matter from nothing and putting everything in the order He has chosen, you are free to believe whatever you wish on how the world got here.

Einstein believes that we could not have started without God Darwin was agnostic, I think?

Here is my take on creation or evolution.

I do not think as a Christian that we can believe in evolution because evolution by its very nature is something arbitrary and unplanned. In short evolution rests on chance.

To say that we believe in evolution and yet believe that God is the cause of this evolution is contradictory since once intelligient intervention is factored into the equation it ceases to be evolution but design / creation.

Here’s a simple analogy.

Say I am invisible.

I place a little blob of clay on your desk. Whenever you are not looking I would slightly alter this blob of clay until one day you look and it has become the form of a man.

From your vantage point this clay is evolving as it seems to be taking on a different form on its own.

But from my vantage point, (the “invisible god” who is making this possible), there is nothing evolutionary about it at all because I had planned this from the beginning.

Once you factor the hand of an Intelligient Being, it ceases to be evolution. So evolution in real terms is really atheistic.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Crazydyl,

Thanks for the link.

Tom

I like this bit on Peter Kreeft’s website

'C. S. Lewis, who uses this argument in a number of places, summarizes it succinctly:

Creatures are not born with desires unless satisfaction for these desires exists. A baby feels hunger; well, there is such a thing as food. A dolphin wants to swim; well, there is such a thing as water. Men feel sexual desire; well, there is such a thing as sex. If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. (Mere Christianity, Bk. III, chap. 10, “Hope”) ’

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm#9

 

[crazydyl]

i think that we are missing something vital here Christ was predicted before He came and He fulfilled the prophicies when He came

So was He just some guy off the street? Well, He must have been some kind of magician if He had all of the believers in the streets to believe Him, because normally some guy off the street trying to pretend that He was Christ would probably be laughed at unless he could do something. And wouldn’t the disciples be gaining something if they were helping Him with His magic tricks? Surely all of the time that they spent with each other they’d have realised if He was a magician or really performing miracles, because they had no incentive to follow Him apart from believing that He was the Son of God

Also, you have this miracle that backs up Christian beliefs because it is only explainable through Jesus being Christ Jesus predicted by the Jews.

youtube.com/watch?v=UpUpgf8Ui1E&NR=1

You also have these two guys who got nothing from Islam and even had demons about to attack them but then this guy called JC saved them
youtube.com/watch?v=n7fXvgeS-v4
youtube.com/watch?v=4Q6KEAp6sqQ

You can pretty much forget all of the theories that humans have made up… We have the Jewish prophecies of Christ, the disciples that followed Him, the conversion of Muslims after experiencing spriritual things and the miracle in Damascus.

Does everyone agree with me? Or should we all be atheists or buddhists?

 

[crazydyl]

Now let us all be happy about Jesus and watch this video with good music on!

youtube.com/watch?v=KF3Y5qfnhGc

 

[djeter]

Blaise Pascal once wrote: “The heart has its order, the mind has its own, which uses principles and demonstrations. The heart has a different one. We do not prove that we ought to be loved by setting out in order the causes of love; that would be absurd. Jesus Christ and St. Paul possess the order of charity, not of the mind, for they wished to humble, not to teach.” (Pensées 298)

Peter Kreeft has offered by way of interpretation: “It is a prejudice of rationalism (not reason) that rational order, the order of the mind, is the only kind of order. In fact, the heart’s order is just as much order, but a different kind. The head seeks truth, the heart seeks goodness. This is why reason’s order is that of a map or outline of truth, while the heart’s order is that of a journey to its goal, its heart’s desire….How can humbling be better than teaching? …In regard to nature, the highest stage of knowledge is knowledge. But in regard to God and his images, the highest stage of knowledge is love. We know God and man only by loving them.

St. Thomas says that it is better to know a stone than to love a stone but better to love God than to know God, because love conform the lover to the beloved, while knowledge conforms the known object to the way-of-knowing of the knower. When we love a dog, we become more doggy, but when we know a dog, we raise it up to our own level: thought.

When we know God we drag him down to our anthropomorphic level, we make God more humanoid than he really is; but when we love God, we are raised up more closely to his level, we become more God-like than we were (for ‘God is love’).”

So Fr. Aidan Nichols cites in his magisterial work The Shape of Catholic Theology. six approaches to God’s existence, experiential signs and a kind of argument.

For approaches to the divine, not reasons or logic, see this (where the above came from)

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.
The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.
Albert Einstein

dj

 

[curlycool89]

The Spirit lead me. I guess as an engineering student there’s not much logic to it, but it makes complete sense to me. There are decisions that I’ve made in the past that I had no real explanation for that all the sudden made perfect sense. Somehow I made a bunch of blind turns and ended up running right into God. Good enough for me.

 

[crazydyl]

The Spirit lead me. I guess as an engineering student there’s not much logic to it, but it makes complete sense to me. There are decisions that I’ve made in the past that I had no real explanation for that all the sudden made perfect sense. Somehow I made a bunch of blind turns and ended up running right into God. Good enough for me.

Yeah, the same happened to me when I started dating a Muslim woman after finding that no non-religious woman or way of life was meaningful. If there was no proof then I’d be with her and have converted to Islam, but I now believe that Jesus was Christ so I’m back to my roots as a Catholic I’ve just been looking for information to show to people when evangelising but also to secure my own faith

Here is another cool song haha youtube.com/watch?v=owz9Khl07WM&feature=related ‘Ain’t nobody’. Think of Jesus when you watch this hehe

 

[bluemary]

I am also a logical thinking person, it’s just my nature. I prayed for God to reveal himself to me in a way that I would know beyond a doubt that he existed, and he did.

I studied the scripture, reading them over and over to gain more of an understanding and learned also what the Catholic Church’s true belief’s are. (many people will tell you what the Catholic Church believes, both Catholics and non, but most are wrong.) Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Plus I might suggest a set of easy to read and short booklets called Beginning Apologetics from San Juan Catholic Seminars. ( about 6.00 ea.)

Also very important is the reading of the writings of the early church leaders. We have writings as early as 96 ad by followers of the apostles. These were found and authenticated by Historians. There are many, many writings too. I would highly suggest that you start with a series called, The Faith of the Early Church Fathers by William A. Jurgens (the selector and translator) If you can’t afford the 3 book series, just start with the earliest writings in Vol. 1. It will blow your mind! You’ll see where we get much of what we believe through the writings and they also clear up the meaning of contested passages in the Bible.

The vatican has documented 100’s perhaps thousands of Eucharistic miracles, many have been studied and verified, such as the host, when being consecrated by a priest turning to flesh or blood. When the flesh was examined by scientist it was concluded to be flesh from a human heart, type AB (I think), and every time this has happened throughout history and the blood was typed it was found to be human blood and the same type, AB.

This just so happens to be the same type of blood found on the Shroud of Turin. This is another thing to study. Go on the internet and read up on all of the current scientific knowledge on it. I did a paper on the shroud and it will blow your mind once you see all of the evidence to support it truly being the shroud of Christ and the image only being able to get on the cloth through a sudden burst of energy emmiting from the body of the crucified man. I believe the group of U.S. scientist is called STURP.

Plus there is much, much more. If you want evidence, we’ve got plenty. The evidence can bring you almost all the way to proving that Jesus was God and that God truly exists, but it can’t bring you all the way. You have to reach out and search for Him. Done in sincerity, you’ll find Him. As one ex-atheist lawyer put it, “If I had to try this case in a court of law and I was trying to prove that Jesus was who he said he was, they would have to find for Him, based on simply the evidence alone. It is beyond any reasonable doubt.”

 

[snowman10]

There are a lot of logical reasons to believe. Being a science trained professional, I find it easy to believe. Science does not interfere with my faith. It actually fosters it. But not everything that claims to be a miracle convinces me. Personally I do not believe the Shroud of Turin to be real. But if it helps contemplate the Lord than I am okay with it. But there are things like Eucharistic miracles, incorruptibles, Fatima, etc that provide some amazing proof. Also, why would so many people suffer horrible deaths (St. Peter, St. Paul) if Christ was not truly resurrected?

That being said, to believe a lot of what we do takes faith. But I think mixing faith with reason is good and healthy. Really, to say some random man was tortured and killed then got up three days later only to fly up into the clouds sounds like a fairy tale. But there is reason behind it as mentioned before.

 

[Cinette]

There are a lot of logical reasons to believe. Being a science trained professional, I find it easy to believe. Science does not interfere with my faith. It actually fosters it. But not everything that claims to be a miracle convinces me. Personally I do not believe the Shroud of Turin to be real. But if it helps contemplate the Lord than I am okay with it. But there are things like Eucharistic miracles, incorruptibles, Fatima, etc that provide some amazing proof. Also, why would so many people suffer horrible deaths (St. Peter, St. Paul) if Christ was not truly resurrected?

That being said, to believe a lot of what we do takes faith. But I think mixing faith with reason is good and healthy. Really, to say some random man was tortured and killed then got up three days later only to fly up into the clouds sounds like a fairy tale. But there is reason behind it as mentioned before.

*Hi Snowman!

My husband was atheist and is now a Catholic who attends daily Mass. I am amazed at the transformation! In belief I mean, because he was so cynical about religion. One of the things that has fascinated him has been the Shroud and recently he sent for a book called "The Mystery of the Shroud of Turin"* (New Scientific Evidence) by John C Iannone. Perhaps you should get it also. I have yet to read it and I am currently uncertain myself but my husband believes 100% and if he does…

Cinette

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hee hee hee . I have $25 to go shopping for Catholic movies with, and I’m going to have fun!!! My two brothers, one of whom is Protestant, are watching dramatic Catholic movies with me, so that’s good too . . .

Cinette:

My husband was atheist and is now a Catholic who attends daily Mass. I am amazed at the transformation! In belief I mean, because he was so cynical about religion. One of the things that has fascinated him has been the Shroud and recently he sent for a book called “The Mystery of the Shroud of Turin” (New Scientific Evidence) by John C Iannone. Perhaps you should get it also. I have yet to read it and I am currently uncertain myself but my husband believes 100% and if he does…

Cool . I only know an overview of what’s been said about the Shroud of Turin, myself. I tend to give it the benefit of the doubt. Plus some of what I’ve heard is amazing.