Any non catholic: what is your opinion on Mary the Mother of God?

[GreggAlvarez]

No, Marys humanity brings the human nature to the birth and combines the two natures in pregnancy. God supplies the Divine Nature through the Word became Flesh

Jesus has two natures in the Hypostatic Union.

I agree… What I said did not contradict that. I just did not explain. As I told Ryan, I was just reiterating the fact that His divinity and humanity are inseparable as per your bible verse: “The Word became Flesh.”

Non-Catholics tend to do that when talking about Mary: Mother of God. That is, they separate His two natures and make them isolated from each other.

That is all. I do not disagree with the Church. I know what I said. I just did not explain it.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I agree… What I said did not contradict that. I just did not explain. As I told Ryan, I was just reiterating the fact that His divinity and humanity are inseparable as per your bible verse: “The Word became Flesh.”

Non-Catholics tend to do that when talking about Mary: Mother of God. That is, they separate His two natures and make them isolated from each other.

That is all. I do not disagree with the Church. I know what I said. I just did not explain it.

 

[RyanBlack]

Apparently, I needed to be more clear of explanation. I was not wrong. I just used it in a way that was ill-defined.

Fortunately for me, I am not a 1st semester theology student. Far from it.

No need for the insults people. I was just emphasizing their inseparability.

I did not intend the comment as an insult. I apologize for giving offense. However, what you said, as you said it, is, simply, wrong. It is Catholic teaching that Christ has two natures. It is also Catholic teaching that the Holy Trinity has one nature. One cannot conclude from the dogmatic teaching concerning the two natures of Christ that the Holy Trinity has two natures. On the other hand, one cannot conclude from the dogmatic teaching concerning the one nature of the Holy Trinity that Christ has only one nature.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I did not intend the comment as an insult. I apologize for giving offense.

No worries. I figured it was my fault if a Catholic says something to me.

However, what you said, as you said it, is, simply, wrong. It is Catholic teaching that Christ has two natures. It is also Catholic teaching that the Holy Trinity has one nature. One cannot conclude from the dogmatic teaching concerning the two natures of Christ that the Holy Trinity has two natures. On the other hand, one cannot conclude from the dogmatic teaching concerning the one nature of the Holy Trinity that Christ has only one nature.

I completely agree. Indeed, as I said it, it was completely wrong. Certainly not as I meant it. Words speak louder than thoughts. Haha…

I will do a better job of explaining next time. Thanks for pointing that out though!

 

[ConstantineTG]

I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant heritage, and am interested in reconciliation.

The Catholic view of Mary has been a problem for me. Why?

1. Mary is blessed, of course, and she merits the respect of all Christians. However, it would appear that Mariology mushroomed over the years. It wasn't until 1864, for example, that Pius IX defined the Immaculate Conception as an official doctrine. And it wasn't until 1950 that Pius XII defined the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary. These doctrines have been formulated from logic, but without a word of support from scripture.

Sure, but the belief that Mary has been conceived without sin has existed from the beginning. Even Eastern Catholics/Orthodox believe that Mary is without blemish from conception. The only contention the Orthodox has over the Immaculate Conception is the definition of Original Sin. But all are agreement that Mary is pure from her very beginning.

2. One can easily become suspicious that this increased focus on Mary was influenced by the importance of goddesses in the Greco-Roman world as well as in some of the mystery religions that rivaled early Christianity.

But the East also has a lot of focus on Mary. In fact, in the Roman Mass there is no hymn to Mary, in the Divine Liturgy there is. Plus Mary is mandatory on all iconostasis as Christ is. You will see this even with the Copts who are neight Greeks nor Romans.

3. It troubles me that the most popular prayer among Catholics if the 'Hail, Mary' rather than the prayer Christ taught us to say, True, the first part of the prayer is taken from scripture, but the last part was added and is where the problem exists.

Again, the Lord’s Prayer or Our Father is prayed in all Liturgies, but not the Hail Mary. That to me shows how important the prayer is.

 4. Apart from the Nativity and the Crucifixion, Mary is noted only three times in the gospels. In the first she and Joseph went a full day's journey from Jerusalem before they discovered that Jesus, 12 years old, was not among them. What parent would do that today? The other two references seem to be almost dismissive of Mary. Read them for yourself: Matt. 12:46-50 and John 2:4. "Who is my mother?" "Woman, what have I to do with you...?"

You have to understand the context to understand that Jesus is not dismissive but rather conveying a teaching. If he’s dismissive, why did he had to worry about who would care for Mary?

5. Paul wrote many epistles, and there were other epistle writers, too. Paul, in particular, gave instructions on doctrine and such. None of the epistles so much as mention Mary. If she were so central to early Christian worship, how could that have happened?

St. Paul didn’t tackle liturgical rules. He tackled attitude of the people, and at times rules on who should be chosen to become bishops, priests, etc. Can you conclusively say that all Protestants or a specfic Protestant church today strictly adhere’s to St. Paul’s prescriptions and nothing more?

6. Mary should be honored, but I've discovered that most Protestants feel that Catholicism has elevated her too much. Go into about any Catholic Church and there is her statue and/or a massive painting of her on the ceiling or elsewhere.

Mary is elevated. Angels are perfect beings, but none of them shared nature with God. And out of all the humans, it was Mary who bore God in her womb. If that doesn’t tell you she’s head and shoulders above all creation, what does?

7. Catholicism really goes far when it claims that she never committed a sin, while the Bible clearly says "all have sinned'. I guess I don't understand why it would be so serious if Mary were human like the rest of us and occasionally had some thought or committed some deed that was at least a minor sin.

How can you prove that? You can’t. For one who always refers to the Bible for everything, can you point to a verse in the Bible where Mary sinned? I can point to one which says she is full of grace. Grace connects us with God, one who has grace is in full communion with God. If Mary is filled with grace, how else can temptation seep into her consciouness?

8. One wonders if Mary would want all this adulation.

Would want, probably not. But she definitely deserves it. Look at it this way, even if you are not for Obama or for Bush, you would give them respect because of who they are, even if they did not ask for it and even if you don’t like them personally. Thats why we adore Mary, because she bore God. Its not because she’s asking for it, but being the human mother of Christ whom we all worship as God, she deserves such praise from us.

 

[larkin31]

Depends on what you think the “message and salvation of Christ” is. Your church probably did not have a fully orthodox understanding of that message–hence the failure to see how Mary is relevant.

You’re misrepresenting what I said. I said that I did not see how the parsing of the argument was relevant. Mary, herself, of course is relevant, and I never said otherwise.

I was taught the importance of the Apostle’s Creed. Which does not say all the rest of this business. All it says there is, I believe in Jesus Christ, “born of the Virgin Mary.”

 

[ConstantineTG]

God is the creator of all, I can agree with that statement.

If Mary gave birth to the second person in the Trinity as you stated, then she also gave birth to the 3 parson in the Trinity as well, The Holy Spirit. So in fact she gave birth to the Trinity, God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit seeing they are the same person. You can’t give birth to one without giving birth to the other 2.

Now I have to agree with Dokimas on this: God did not create God. Jesus always existed. He did not have His beginning in Mary’s womb. Can you explain this?

But the Trinity is one in being and undivided. While Mary is not the mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, she is mother of God the Son. So she is the mother of God.

Jesus came into the world through Mary. Just because His beginning didn’t start at Mary’s womb doesn’t mean she is not His mother.

 

[Dokimas]

It is not hope if you already know the object of that hope.

The object of that hope in context is that I didn’t say what you said I said.

Seriously? How so?

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas;7558837:

Wrong. It is quite possible to say something that is objectively a lie without being a liar. We all do it all the time–it’s called making an honest mistake.

Similarly, it is possible to say something that is objectively heretical without being a heretic.

Catholics distinguish between “material” and “formal” heresy.

Jesus has two natures.

Telling a lie seems to mean intent, thus done by a liar, no mistake intended by the one speaking a lie. We wouldn’t call it a lie if it is a mistake.

“Jesus has two nature.” Is this heretical, cuz this is what I’ve held all the way through this discussion?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

The Catholic view of Mary has been a problem for me. Why?

    3. It troubles me that the most popular prayer among Catholics if the 'Hail, Mary' rather than the prayer Christ taught us to say, True, the first part of the prayer is taken from scripture, but the last part was added and is where the problem exists.

The most popular Catholic prayer is actually the “Our Father”. It is said every single day, every single hour… There is Mass going on right now in the world and right now the Our Father is being said by thousands, perhaps even millions.

4. Apart from the Nativity and the Crucifixion, Mary is noted only three times in the gospels...

This statement perplexes me. :hypno:

The Incarnation and the Crucifixion are the two most pivotal moments in the history of the world!

The Jews might as well make the argument, “Well, apart from the New Testament, Christ is not even mentioned.”

You cannot take out those two moments in history to try to disprove something!

 

[GreggAlvarez]

The object of that hope in context is that I didn’t say what you said I said.

Actually, I was trying to say that what you said he said was not what he actually said.
Haha… We should squash this. We are both going to lose this one.

What does surrogate refer to?

I was hoping you would tell me what it means in relation to Mary and Jesus because I seriously have no clue what it means in that context

Not so simple. The Virgin part means the birth is supernatural, nothing more.

It was still significant though on Mary’s part. Otherwise, it would not have been mentioned.

Sure, why don’t you start one.

Nah… I am sure there are plenty of them out there.

Sorry I’m not following.

It is fine. It was irrelevant to the discussion.

The whole term, not it’s parts.

You agree with both His full humanity and divinity and the inseparability, but not when they are combined into one big easy doctrine?

 

[Contarini]

Telling a lie seems to mean intent, thus done by a liar, no mistake intended by the one speaking a lie. We wouldn’t call it a lie if it is a mistake.

Then your analogy doesn’t hold, does it? You’re the one who made this analogy in the first place. Whatever be the case with lying, one can quite easily say that an opinion is heresy (materially) without saying that the person who holds the opinion is a heretic (formally or culpably). That’s the point.

“Jesus has two nature.” Is this heretical, cuz this is what I’ve held all the way through this discussion?

Then you’re not heretical on that point. But Mary isn’t the mother of a nature–Mary is the mother of a Person or hypostasis.

Edwin

 

[elvisman]

You took these quotes out of their context. Are you doing this to distort what I’m saying? The first statement was because you called me a heretic (telling a lie makes one a liar, therefore speaking herecy makes one a heretic).

I never called you a heretic - I said you spoke heresy. To be a heretic - you must be part of the Church. You are not because you are already seperated from the Church. Your faith tradition comes from prideful men who broke away some 600 years ago. THEY were heretics because they WERE part of the Church when they proclaimed their heresy - just as Nestorius was, whose heresy you are proclaiming by attempting to seperate Christ’s 2 natures.**

What’s His nature? Devine which is God’s and only God’s nature. Seems you are playing with words. She DID NOT create His Nature.

**Jesus is NOT merely divine. He has unnited to himself TWO natures (Human AND Divine) which are indivisible. In your spiritual pride - you are playing with fire, friend . . . **

 

[GaryTaylor]

There’s a few concepts, far from new which must be understood here. The Incarnation the Hypostatic Union and the Trinity. All Christians believe this. Not just Catholics.

Here they are.

newadvent.org/cathen/07706b.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm

 

[Dokimas]

Actually, I was trying to say that what you said he said was not what he actually said.
Haha… We should squash this. We are both going to lose this one.

I was hoping you would tell me what it means in relation to Mary and Jesus because I seriously have no clue what it means in that context

It means what surrogate ususally means: Mary’s womb was used by God to grow the embryo we call Jesus.

It was still significant though on Mary’s part. Otherwise, it would not have been mentioned.

It being mentioned had nothing specifically to do with Mary except she was a virgin. It fulfilled prophecy AND it assured that Jesus would be special, not just a regular human. If Mary was not a virgin initially, then how would we know the embryo of Jesus was special? We wouldn’t.

Nah… I am sure there are plenty of them out there.

Ye but it would bear your name. :

It is fine. It was irrelevant to the discussion.

You agree with both His full humanity and divinity and the inseparability, but not when they are combined into one big easy doctrine?

I’m not sure what the highlighted part means.

 

[Dokimas]

Actually, I was trying to say that what you said he said was not what he actually said.
Haha… We should squash this. We are both going to lose this one.

I was hoping you would tell me what it means in relation to Mary and Jesus because I seriously have no clue what it means in that context

It was still significant though on Mary’s part. Otherwise, it would not have been mentioned.

Nah… I am sure there are plenty of them out there.

It is fine. It was irrelevant to the discussion.

You agree with both His full humanity and divinity and the inseparability, but not when they are combined into one big easy doctrine?

 

[Ranklyfrank]

I sort of left my devotion to Mary behind in grammar school. In high school Mary Help of Christians was honored, as it was a Salesian school. I always thought of her as a good Mother who was ideal but spiritual only. Being a guy, I guess I didn’t go far in that direction and was way more interested in “cool” guy Saints who did miracles or were brave. I especially liked St. Philip Neri because he was said to be very funny.

There was a woman in our parish who dressed in blue, wore heavy makeup and always, like seven days a week, prayed in the church to Mary. She died of anorexia. I always felt funny talking to her when I was cleaning the church or visiting. And all the nuns were “Sister Mary This or That.” All that was kind of creepy to me. And I never thought of the priests as Father after one of them tried to get in my pants and two others were shuffled off for similar reasons. And then there was high school…

I think it is great to have an ideal image of women and have great respect and devotion to one’s own woman, not to mention God and the idea of His Mother. And weird as it might be, I have learned a lot of that respect, much of it, after leaving the Church, from non-Catholic and even pagan ideas of ideal womanhood. So my take is kind of different. I think that Catholics don’t go far enough with Mary and might well look at her “sisters” as well. I know you all are going to think that’s crazy or disrespectful, but there are some extraordinary ideas in non Catholic cultures, whether we subscribe to that or like it or not. And since this is a non-Catholic religions thread, I would hope despite the sponsor’s faith it can be understood that there are many ways of devotion in the world, just as a phenomenon, whether they hold appeal for you or not, and these ides are not meant to step on anyone’s feelings.

God made ALL women in His own image and likeness, as he did all men as well. Why would we be surprised that other people’s ways have extremely elevated takes of the Mother idea?

 

[MaryandJoseph]

It was The Blessed Mother Mary who lead me to Jesus Christ her Son.

My “first” conversion was to believe in a Creator. It was Mary who ‘introduced’ me to Jesus which lead me to the Catholic Church (not even on my spiritual radar at first).

As a Catholic, I honor and love Mary but I do NOT Adore her as this is ONLY for God. I pray the Rosary to be closer to Jesus and enter more spiritually into His teachings and life. Mary takes me spiritually by the hand and gently guides me closer to my Saviour.

“Do what ever He tells you”!..This is the eternal role of our Queen Mother. She leads us all TO Jesus NOT away from Him.

As a faith, Catholics are forbidden to worship anyone/thing Other then the Trinitarian God, now that being said, there will always be those few who go off the rails and elevate the Blessed Mother to a higher statis then is appropiate, but as an Official teaching of the Church, ONLY GOD is to be worshipped.

If you choose not to pray With Mary and the Saints and Angels in heaven to interceed on your behalf before the Throne of God, that is your choice. But at least understand why we as Catholics DO choose to. Read what the OFFICIAL Church teaching on this is and not just what you have heard from others or read from NON-Catholic sources that may have an agenda to further.

If a pastor can lead his flock to Jesus Christ, how much more can the Mother of God the Son, the Blessed Virgin Mary lead us!

 

[Contarini]

It was The Blessed Mother Mary who lead me to Jesus Christ her Son.

My “first” conversion was to believe in a Creator. It was Mary who ‘introduced’ me to Jesus which lead me to the Catholic Church (not even on my spiritual radar at first).

Thanks for that testimony. Folks from Protestant backgrounds like me need to hear these stories!

There was a moment about ten years ago, while doing the Stations of the Cross (in my Episcopal parish), when I looked up at the picture of Mary and suddenly it all came together for me–of course she points me to Jesus and not away. But it took a while for me to get there, on a gut level, because I grew up relating to Jesus very intensely but not to Mary. So it was hard for me to get the idea of Mary helping us know Jesus better. Clearly it was different for you!

Edwin

 

[Peter_John]

How about starting with a simple concept and take it step by step, and we can determine things we do not need to address: For catholics I am not saying this is all there is to it, but that it is a place to start. If we cannot agree on these points we will be soeaking at odds with each other, and that is pointless.

1. God the father Almighty does not have a Physical body (Mormons will disagree)
2. Mary was a Virgin when Jesus was born, and served as a temple of the Lord while she carried Him.
3. Jesus had a physical body, and was resurrected withe that same physical body (hence the empty tomb).
4. Therefore the material of Jesus’ Human Body came from Mary, adn he carried that into heaven with him.
5. When we partake of Communion it represents the material of mary’s body and blood as certainly as it is the Body and Blood of Christ.