Any One Else Noticed Protestants Calling Themselves 'catholic'?

[GKC]

Exactly.

Although I feel like I should add a qualifier to my previous comments. Namely, I fully understand if (and actually expect that) e.g. on an Eastern Orthodox forum the term “Catholic” is used to mean the EO. Likewise for, say, an Anglican forum or blog that uses “Catholic” in a more inclusive sense. My point was only that here on CAF, “Catholics” (as distinct from “catholics”) should be understood to mean just members of the Roman Communion.

So - I should leave?

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[manualman]

As do many Lutherans. Acknowledging the honorary primacy historically afforded to the Bishop of Rome does not mean accepting the erroneous (in our view, of course) position of universal immediate jurisdiction or papal infallibility. In this particular instance, Lutherans find themselves in a similar stance as our Orthodox brothers.

Don’t go there, it’s a whole 'nother ball of tangled yarn. IIRC, we don’t even define bishop/patriarch the same way you guys do. Do Lutherans even believe in the Sacrament (mystery) of Holy Orders and apostolic succession the way Catholicism does? (Forgive my ignorance, it’s a genuine question).

 

[manualman]

So - I should leave?

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

Perish the thought!

Nobody literate finds your sig misleading, nor aggressively appropriating.

“Evangelical Catholic”, on the other hand is a verbal smoke filled room. Does it refer to George Weigel’s ideas about the internal factions occurring in Catholicism or is it a euphemism for Lutheran? Nobody knows without context. Bad communication.

 

[SteveVH]

This is the heart of what I’m getting at. I see it this same way. At the same time, I should put my spirit in check as regards looking to unity, not divisiveness.

However, several people appeared to have glossed over what I wrote in the original post. Maybe I didn’t explain it properly, as to what boiled my kettle. It was the preachers comment that “…Apostolic has nothing to do with bishops and popes…”..

If anything is divisive, that is.

Amen.

 

[Peter_J]

Perish the thought!

Nobody literate finds your sig misleading, nor aggressively appropriating.

“Evangelical Catholic”, on the other hand is a verbal smoke filled room. Does it refer to George Weigel’s ideas about the internal factions occurring in Catholicism or is it a euphemism for Lutheran? Nobody knows without context. Bad communication.

I’ll have to remember that one. (Though I’m not sure yet where I would use it. Are there Lutheran biker-bars? )

 

[Peter_J]

So - I should leave?

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

Obviously there are exceptions. (I thought about saying that in my earlier post, but I figured it went without saying. )

For example, even on CAF I wouldn’t refer to the PNCC as “the Polish National catholic Church”.

 

[GKC]

Obviously there are exceptions. (I thought about saying that in my earlier post, but I figured it went without saying. )

For example, even on CAF I wouldn’t refer to the PNCC as “the Polish National catholic Church”.

Me either.

GKC

 

[GKC]

Perish the thought!

Nobody literate finds your sig misleading, nor aggressively appropriating.

“Evangelical Catholic”, on the other hand is a verbal smoke filled room. Does it refer to George Weigel’s ideas about the internal factions occurring in Catholicism or is it a euphemism for Lutheran? Nobody knows without context. Bad communication.

(Whew).

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[steido01]

Don’t go there, it’s a whole 'nother ball of tangled yarn. IIRC, we don’t even define bishop/patriarch the same way you guys do. Do Lutherans even believe in the Sacrament (mystery) of Holy Orders and apostolic succession the way Catholicism does? (Forgive my ignorance, it’s a genuine question).

It certainly can be complex.

I was responding to your assertion that Lutherans denied the papal primacy. That we deny supremacy and immediate universal jurisdiction is true, but I don’t see anything in the Lutheran Confessions that necessarily denies papal primacy (in the sense that Orthodoxy acknowledges it to exist, anyway).

When it comes to Holy Orders, Lutherans do acknowledge what we call the “Office of Public Ministry” to be commanded by Christ. Lutheran pastors are Ordained only once; should they receive a call to a new parish, they would be simply Installed. From Confessio Augustana:

Article V: Of the Ministry
That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ’s sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ’s sake.

They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works.

…

Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order
Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called.

Lutherans call this the Rite of Ordination. This is because Lutherans define ‘sacrament’ differently from Rome. The nomenclature really is the difference here. The Lutheran definition of sacrament: bookofconcord.org/defense_12_sacraments.php

Now when it comes to Apostolic Succession, Lutherans do differ from modern Roman Catholic practice in that we understand the Apostolic Teaching to be what is passed down - that is, “who laid hands on whom” is not necessarily what makes Apostolic Succession ‘tick.’ In other words, Lutherans practice Presbyter Ordination (which has been used by the Roman Catholic Church in the past, and was the accepted mode of Ordination in the early church). To Lutherans, the Rite of Ordination only confirms that Apostolic Teaching is confessed. The Ordination does not impart grace of itself in the same way Baptism or Holy Communion do.

I could fill an entire thread with Lutheran ecclesiology but, in essence, the Lutheran pastor is the local bishop. For more information regarding the Lutheran understanding of the power of bishops, see Article XXXVIII:
bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article28

 

[James82]

So - I should leave?

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

No! But you should come join me and rest finally in the bosom of the Church that Jesus Christ laid forth my Anglican brother.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

No, but I love the quatrain.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I suppose by the same token, I could refer to myself both as a baptist and as a member of the Church of Christ.

 

[GKC]

No! But you should come join me and rest finally in the bosom of the Church that Jesus Christ laid forth my Anglican brother.

You are very kind to say so.

GKC

 

[manualman]

To Lutherans, the Rite of Ordination only confirms that Apostolic Teaching is confessed. The Ordination does not impart grace of itself in the same way Baptism or Holy Communion do.

At risk of hijacking the thread, doesn’t the above imply that anybody with a bible can proclaim himself a pastor? And as long as his interpretation of that bible agrees with YOURS, then he’s got “apostolic succession?” I suspect this isn’t what Lutherans actually believe or practice, but the logic inevitably points that direction and fits pretty well with what the larger protestant world has morphed into after just a few centuries.

But neither one of us actually expects to convince the other, do we?

 

[commenter]

So - I should leave?

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus

No, of course you, and JonNC, have to remain here. My training is not yet complete.

Commenter

Catholicus-Arrogantus-Omnicientus-Opinionatus

 

[GKC]

No, of course you, and JonNC, have to remain here. My training is not yet complete.

Commenter

Catholicus-Arrogantus-Omnicientus-Opinionatus

You’re using my secret board name.

GKC

 

[RichWh1]

I don’t think the term “denomination” fits Catholicism for all sorts of reasons. Denominations are an invention of modern English-speaking Protestant societies.

Let me just remind you the word ‘denomination’ is a Latin word and came from the Latin language of ancient Rome. So it is not the invention of modern English-speaking Protestant societies.

Denominations by definition don’t claim to be the True Church. The closest Catholic counterpart would be a “sui juris church,” of which there are something like 23 within the Catholic Church (though the Roman Catholic Church in the strict sense is by far the largest).

Denomination means Of a Name or with a name. The church had no name and Jesus never gave it a name. The early 2nd Century believers used the word ‘catholic’ as referring to the church but never gave it a name as Constantine and Lucinius did in 332 AD via the Edict of Milan.

There is a difference between ‘catholic’ and Roman Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church is a denomination, since it is with a name and that is the meaning of the word.

 

[Novocastrian]

You’re using my secret board name.

GKC

I heard that if we say it aloud three times you appear behind us like Mephistopheles, and drag us away, screaming, into schism / a well-stocked library. Can you confirm or deny these rumours?

 

[GKC]

I heard that if we say it aloud three times you appear behind us like Mephistopheles, and drag us away, screaming, into schism / a well-stocked library. Can you confirm or deny these rumours?

I think you’re thinking of Bloody Mary.

GKC

 

[Nicea325]

Hey all,

Before I open here I will share something with you. I am in attendance at a men’s substance use recovery ‘retreat’ of sorts, it is ‘faith based’. Every Sunday we go to different churches, but they are always of Protestant denomination (Baptist, etc).

Well today at a ‘Calvalry Baptist Church’ it opened up with the usual koom-bah-yah, along with some open prayer for various infirmities and illnesses.

Then came the sermon…

The tract revolved around how all Christians who believe in the full truth of the Gospel are part of the ‘one.holy.catholic.apostolic.church’. This is how Jesus intended it. Then how no one is more holy than others, catholic is merely universal for the invisible/visible ‘church’, all Christians are inheritors of ‘apostolic tradition’.

As all of this was being said I was trying to pray and rub the Crucifix on my Rosary that I keep around my neck (but underneath my shirt).

Then the rub…"…but apostolic isn’t about Popes or succession or bishops…" At this point my spirit started to get very angry and on the way out I would not shake the pastor’s hand.

I guess my question is; is my anger misplaced? Should I just love them for the bit’s of true Christendom that they do adhere to and ignore heresy?

I only have two more days left before I start RCIA. Please pray for me and the guidance that Fr. Alfredo will bring to me. I cannot wait to be in the bosom of the Church.

In Christ,

James

Well saying that they are Catholics doesn’t necessarily make it correct. Baptists? In the family of God by virtue of baptism,yet divorced from the Holy Catholic/HolyOrthodox church.