Any opinions on these books from my son's Catholic high school English class?

[benjamin1973]

I read some Captain Underpants with him. It’s entertaining enough, and he thinks it’s very funny, of course. However, I’m currently reading the Ramona books, which are a little more literate, and which actually teach something about life.

I wouldn’t read Dickens to Grade 1 students, but there are quite a lot of well-written classics which both appeal to a young mind, and also include grammatically correct sentences and more formal idioms. I don’t think you have to “dumb it down” for kids in a desperate bid to get them away from their phones or anything like that. Some proper parental supervision and direction is better IMO.

My daughter is in middle school, and she recommend a book called Divergent. It’s about a society which has been forcibly divided into factions based on personality traits: one group for kindness, a separate group for intelligence, another for bravery, and another for honesty. It’s quite an interesting concept, but there’s one little thing that bugs me: the main character is always wanting to look into the eyes of a young man, it’s always talking about her trembling hands or her racing pulse and so on. There’s quite a lot of that, actually.

Not sure if children’s literature really needs to involve kissing in order to engage young readers-- though I suppose the writer knows her market.

 

[Dlee]

Ethel Waters

When I was in HS, I asked permission to read an alternate book because of the content (can’t remember what it was.) Teacher said I could select a book from the library. I selected the biography of Ethel Waters based on the fact that she sang at the Billy Graham Crusades. Well, needless to say, I learned quite a bit and by comparison, the assigned book was probably more tame. Waters overcame so much in her lifetime, including abuse.

 

[PetraG]

I smell pretention. Just a whiff. I caught it a couple of posts ago and…there it is again. Anyone else smell it?

Now Harry Potter may not be high art or great literature but if you think they are not extremely well written then you don’t know good writing from a box of rocks. Maybe you should read King’s book ‘On Writing’ rather than his tweets so you’d have a better grasp of the difference between mediocre, good and great.

Perhaps you can get one of your parents to blank out the swear words so your sensibilities are not offended.

A page-turning story and an “extremely well written” novel are not the same thing. Really…you don’t think it is pretentious to say so, do you? You can like s’mores and point out correctly that they are a dessert that holds a special place in many hearts, but no one would argue that a s’more is an example of an “extremely well-crafted” dessert. They’re simple and they do the job, partly because it does not take the skill of a pastry chef to make them. They are not haute cuisine, and they do lack the refinement that makes haute cuisine worth all the trouble.

On the other hand, in my not-humble and only partly-tongue-in-cheek opinion, nothing will be better for the Harry Potter series than if those books are dismissed as unfit fodder for the attention of English lit classes. Why? The great advantage that the Harry Potter series will enjoy if English teachers never use any of them as an example of the finest writing is that no one will ever be forced to dissect a section by Monday or to squeeze them for hidden metaphors until dead rather than just reading them as the page-turners full of obviously-planted food for thought they were intended to be.

Who ever cried in frustration, trying to learn to make a s’more? There is room in this world for both the high and the low.

 

[Gingersnaps4]

Haha, I used to love reading Stephen King, because I am a fan of the horror/thriller genre but after following his twitter and facebook for a while, I have unsubscribed and will probably never read his books again. So I agree with you on that!

 

[Irishmom2]

Hmmm. That’s the second negative mention of his Twitter. I don’t do Twitter, but what makes his so bad?

 

[Gingersnaps4]

He’s boorish, not very smart, and always the profanity of course. I don’t know if it would be against guidelines to post a screen shot of his twitter feed so I won’t, but you can go to twitter and search his name and it will pull up his last few tweets without you needing to subscribe. I just looked at it and was not surprised at all, he’s still the same as always.

 

[Irishmom2]

Ohh, ok. Don’t think I need to check that out then, do I?

 

[pnewton]

English prof. here. I’d deem them all appropriate for that level in school. Are they the best choice? Maybe or maybe not, but it could be far worse. I am not in favor of censorship at that age.

While I agree that a more latitude is needed, I still see wisdom in boundaries. If I have boundaries for movies and games, and I do, then it only makes sense to expand this to literature, though the books mentioned here are well within those boundaries. High school is also prime age for depression, suicide, and now, mass shooting. I know that what we feed these minds contribute to these ills.

OTOH, perhaps your son might find himself better understanding “girls” and “women” by reading this “chick book.”

I agree, but only for educational purposes. School is for education. Too much though would discourage the love of reading, whereas reading enjoyable books encourages reading for the sake of reading. Rather than discourage such books, I look for them. Right now, my son is reading Clive Cussler and Tom Clancy.

Books with all this emotion stuff are good to a point, but will always be the quadratic equation of literature.

 

[pnewton]

But please be kind–labeling less advanced books as “dull” or "shallow,’ or “the scourge of modernity” isn’t necessary,

Also, times are a-changin’. Now, there are graphic novels which attract many young readers. Here, not only the words, but the context can be understood. My crystal ball tells me that in two generation universities will have courses on the video game genre as literature. There is a balance between pushing kids to read beyond their natural level, and letting them pick their level by reading what they want. I believe the latter is the most important.

I would also like to mention that the thread began with a question about a Catholic school. A Catholic school would not be expected to run like a public school, but consider moral content in books and in teaching. Two years ago I found a set of popular 4-8 grade books (about some teen agents) that needed removal because of sexual content, language, and the general tone. The principal was rather shocked at the excerpts I sent her.

 

[Alex337]

We do have units on video games as new media. One of the professors at my uni wrote their thesis on it. There’s some really good storytelling to be found in videogames if you know where to look.

 

[Peeps]

I’ve not read the Harry Potter series, but my husband and daughter (35 years old) have.

I’m not sure if you respect the Writers’ Digest Magazine, but one thing that they and other writers’ review sites praise about Rowling is her plotting skills.

Apparently the plot lines of these novels are extremely complex and take the reader up and down and all around and back again and then out again

I’ve read that Rowling inserts incidents throughout the novels that seem to be merely throw-away padding, but show up in later novels and have a major effect on the course of the plots.

So even if the writing style is beneath your standards, the plots should be respected.

One more thing–please keep in mind that the Harry Potter series is written for the average 6th grader (in the U.S.–not sure what they are in Great Britain). Of course this will seem a little juvenile for teenaged and adult readers–they ARE classed as JUVENILE novels! But according to the experts, the plots are way beyond Adult level.

 

[midori]

It’s important to remember that the Harry Potter books weren’t like some series, like the Babysitter’s Club, or Warriors, or Nancy Drew, or anything, where all installments have the characters virtually frozen in time and/or all the installments are meant to be read by the same age group.

The first Harry Potter book came out in 1997 in the UK, and in 1998 in the US. The second one came out in 1998 in the UK, and 1999 in the US. The third one came out in 1999 in both countries. Then the fourth one came out in 2000; the fifth in 2003; the sixth in 2005; the seventh in 2007. So not only did the characters age by a year from book-to-book, but the readers themselves, who may have been 10 years old in 1997, were now 20 years old by 2007. The first three books were things that younger kids could read. Even though there might have been danger, it was still kept pretty accessible to a young audience, and the page counts range from the 300’s-400’s. The fourth book, things start off as a rolicking adventure, but then it takes a sharp left turn as people start dying for real, and the page count is up to the 700’s. The fifth book was just an angsty, annoying mess-- I don’t see a 10 year old making it through 870 pages of that without a struggle. The sixth book was moderately better-- back down to the 650’s, but was pretty forgettable, except for the good parts. The seventh book was back up to the 750’s, and it tied things up together okay, but still had its grim bits that make it less appropriate for a 10-year-old and more scaled towards an older kid.

My favorite book overall was always the third one. (I’ve never forgiven them for getting their werewolf depiction wrong in the movie— didn’t it say flat-out that there are several small way to visually distinguish a werewolf from a regular wolf? What’s up with that cartoonish CGI?!) But I can definitely appreciate how she handled the aging of her characters, the aging of her audience, and her progression as a writer. The bones and structure of what she wanted to do were always there from the beginning— but the books themselves are not interchangeable, and some require a more mature reader than others.

 

[PetraG]

I’ve not read the Harry Potter series, but my husband and daughter (35 years old) have.

I’m not sure if you respect the Writers’ Digest Magazine, but one thing that they and other writers’ review sites praise about Rowling is her plotting skills.

Apparently the plot lines of these novels are extremely complex and take the reader up and down and all around and back again and then out again

I’ve read that Rowling inserts incidents throughout the novels that seem to be merely throw-away padding, but show up in later novels and have a major effect on the course of the plots.

So even if the writing style is beneath your standards, the plots should be respected.

One more thing–please keep in mind that the Harry Potter series is written for the average 6th grader (in the U.S.–not sure what they are in Great Britain). Of course this will seem a little juvenile for teenaged and adult readers–they ARE classed as JUVENILE novels! But according to the experts, the plots are way beyond Adult level.

Oh, no, I meant when my sons found that they were asked by an English teacher to obsess over every little detail for some secondary meaning. They felt it ruined the book for them. You can read a really great novel over and over and keep getting new things from it, but you were never meant to read the very first time writing notes in the margins and milking every word for everything the author could possibly have meant by choosing each and every detail. That is a terrible way to be asked to read a book for the first time. It almost guarantees that it will be the last time that reader ever wants to see that book again!

 

[casslean]

Oh, no, I meant when my sons found that they were asked by an English teacher to obsess over every little detail for some secondary meaning. They felt it ruined the book for them. You can read a really great novel over and over and keep getting new things from it, but you were never meant to read the very first time writing notes in the margins and milking every word for everything the author could possibly have meant by choosing each and every detail. That is a terrible way to be asked to read a book for the first time. It almost guarantees that it will be the last time that reader ever wants to see that book again!

Oh this reminds me of a very popular Facebook meme (I’ll edit for language).

What the author wrote: The curtains were blue.

What the author meant (according to your English lit prof): The protagonist was profoundly depressed at both the state of the present world he was viewing and his prospects for the future. He desperately wanted to change, but his depression blocked out his ability to see where the solutions to his problems lie.

What the author meant (according to the author): The curtains were blue.

 

[somecanadian]

Just as a different perspective I believe this parent is displaying some great discernment here. Kids don’t have fully developed brains. They are easily poisoned. I know I was, anyway. The subtle little poisons that dripped in through my reading choices, friend choices and life choices led me away from God for many years.

I do actually think carefully guarding what our children are exposed to (yes, even literature) is important to helping to guard THEM before they are old enough to discern for themselves. I don’t know how old your teenager is but you probably know them better than we do.

I don’t know anything about the books in question so can’t give any thoughts on THAT but don’t let these posters shame you for guarding your children. That’s your job.

That’s just my personal belief though.

As an aside, when I was 16 my grandmother gave me a book. My parents did not study the book before giving it to me. It ended up being a book full of hardcore descriptions of sex, incest and anal play. It was my introduction to pornography. So yeah… I do think parents should have a look at things before handing it over to their kids.

 

[PetraG]

Oh this reminds me of a very popular Facebook meme (I’ll edit for language).

What the author wrote: The curtains were blue.

What the author meant (according to your English lit prof): The protagonist was profoundly depressed at both the state of the present world he was viewing and his prospects for the future. He desperately wanted to change, but his depression blocked out his ability to see where the solutions to his problems lie.

What the author meant (according to the author): The curtains were blue.

Exactly. Picture a room with baby blue curtains. It isn’t depressing!! Where do these people get this stuff?!?
I can’t imagine what kind of turgid and overwrought stories they must write!!

If a writer is going to err on the side of neglecting the immediacy of enjoyment or a clear primary meaning vs erring on the side of choosing details that have no secondary meanings, I have to say I’d much rather read a good story that doesn’t try so hard to produce for a hundred times that it fails to produce the first time through. If a story isn’t enjoyable the first time, who will want to read it even twice? If the primary meaning isn’t compelling, who cares about the meanings that are hidden below the surface?

Having said that, a writer who doesn’t choose details carefully won’t produce a story that anyone is going to enjoy more on the fifth reading than on the first. Yes, if I could only have one I’d rather have an eclair au chocolat than a s’more. Still, there is a place in this life for both.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Lord of the Flies is the only one I recognize. Glad to see that. But there are probably 50-100 novels I could name - classics, domestic and foreign - that are suitable for a high school student. I don’t want to Google any of this on your list because I already know what I will find and I won’t like it. I have come to question the idea that a ‘Catholic’ education is any less secular than a public one. This might be the lesson you are learning here. Mind you a secular one is pretty bad, especially in the area of liberal arts. The debilitating affects of this in our culture are huge, largely unnoticed because we are entering the second or even third generation of it.

 

[Peeps]

Something that I haven’t seen mentioned yet in this thread (although I very possibly missed it during one of my before-work, bleary-eyed readings of the CAF!) is that it is very important that parents demonstrate respect for a teacher’s authority and require that their children of all ages demonstrate respect for the teacher.

it is vitally important, probably one of the most important things they will EVER learn in all of their school years–is RESPECT for the authority of the teachers and other adult staff members of the school (e.g., the principal, the maintenance people, the secretary, the school nurse, the librarian, etc.

A lack of respect for authority is one of the reasons that there is so much crime in the U.S., and why our politicians are out-of-control.

It’s OK to disagree with someone, but when they are in authority over us, we need to respect them and obey them unless they tell us to do something sinful. Then we need to share with them in a respectful but firm way that we cannot do what they are asking because we believe it to be sinful.

The question that the OP needs to ask is, “Do I consider it a sin for my son to read these books?” I think it would be difficult for anyone to answer that question. Christians cannot avoid sinful situations if they are to live in this world. The question then becomes, “Have I imparted enough wisdom to my child that he can probably appraise the book and discern what is evil and what is good about it?”

But even if the OP decides that the book is an occasion of sin, there still needs to be respect for the teacher, and that means going to the teacher at a time that is convenient for him/her and discussing in a calm way the issue without bringing up any personal issues about the teacher or his/her ability to teach.

In the long run, teaching a child respect for authority will have a greater impact on the child’s entire life than allowing the child to read a book that has an objectionable sex scene.

 

[Alex337]

Have you heard of the game That Dragon, Cancer? Or What Remains of Edith Finch? Solid storytelling.

 

[Alex337]

That Dragon, Cancer was created in part by a husband and wife team as an autobiographical story concerning their son who was diagnosed with cancer at 12 months.

I admit I never got to play text based games, my family didn’t have a computer until 2002. But that looks really good, I’d love to see some modern takes on the old text games, with the revival of retro gaming I suspect we’ll be seeing some soon.