Any Pentecostal Protestants?

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I get annoyed when I hear people whine about how unfriendly church x was when they visited.

Of course there are cases where a person will encounter actual hostility from a member or the minister. It sounds like Syele had something like this kind of experience.

And I am not saying it’s okay to be rude.

But to kvetch because you visited a church and they didn’t give you a hug and make you feel welcome is puerile.

Christ didn’t die on the cross so everyone would be nice.

Judge a church by what they confess, not by whether they fall all over themselves trying to make you feel good.

You don’t deserve it and if it’s what you expect, I’m inclined to guess that you’ve imported expectations from our narcissistic culture into the church.
 
I’ve made the mistake of going to a pentecostal university to understant what pentecostals believed. I was raised a Catholic. Left the church and was “born again” and like many began intensive study of scripture. I enjoyed certain pentecostal services so I went to a pentecostal university to get a undergraduate liberal arts degree while learning about their faith. I came away understanding that there is very problematic issues with pentecostals. It also started a real indepth look at theology and now I’m here. If your interested where I went lets say it’s located in cleveland tn headquarters of one of the prominant pentecostal denominations. When I get some time I’ll post back on this site specific problems faced in this aspect of christianity.
 
sambos671 said:
I’ve made the mistake of going to a pentecostal university to understant what pentecostals believed. I was raised a Catholic. Left the church and was “born again” and like many began intensive study of scripture. I enjoyed certain pentecostal services so I went to a pentecostal university to get a undergraduate liberal arts degree while learning about their faith. I came away understanding that there is very problematic issues with pentecostals. It also started a real indepth look at theology and now I’m here. If your interested where I went lets say it’s located in cleveland tn headquarters of one of the prominant pentecostal denominations. When I get some time I’ll post back on this site specific problems faced in this aspect of christianity.
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I would like to hear your experience as a Pentecostal. My current boss is a Pentecostal. I here him mention Cleveland, TN quite frequently. I know that he has been down there as well. For what I do not know.
 
honeysuckle said:
I just want to invite you, if this is you, to attend Mass. I wish you could have attended Mass yesterday. We read several pages of the gospel, straight from the gospel, about the Passion. God’s Grace is given full reign to work effectively in our lives in the liturgy and Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit just penetrates every word and action of the Mass.

If you are a Pentecostal Protestant, have you gone to Mass lately?
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Since I go to an Assembly of God church…this would encompass me.

Thanks for the invite.

Unfortunately in my town there are 15-20 churches of assorted denominations. I would sort of feel kinda uncomfortable going to any church that is not mine without a personal invite from somebody I had a relationship with that attended that church.

And I have this thing about being loyal to where God has you, so I’m really not in the market for changing churches anyway.

But thanks for the invite.
 
Hisalone said:
Why are these commonplace first century church gifts active in the present Catholc mass ?
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I don’t know what you mean. Is this something you saw on the website I gave you? I need to read that in context.
 
honeysuckle said:
Well, I would agree it’s not usual for Catholics to use the gifts of the spirit today. However, historically, this was not the case. (Think of the many Catholic mystics that are part of our history).

As a matter of fact, I was part of a Vineyard Church, and while I did not personally go to Brownsville, several in my church did.
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Yes you are right there has always been a remnant throughout history that the miraculous was present.
That spiritual gifts were active. The present Charismatic movement was birthed in the NonCatholic charismntic movement.
For those that dont know Brownsville was AG
Toronto was originally Vineyard.

Its hard to believe if you are from the Vineyard to lose the gift of worship that you learned, a place where worship is not a “sideline sport” but everyone participates.
 
You obviously didn’t hear me when I said, “the Holy Spirit to me is more present in the Mass then it was…”

With time, I found the focus on the gifts, especially in the Vineyard Church, to be less substance than superficial human seeking after experiences. I don’t think it necessarily has to be this way, though. I don’t think all Pentecostal churches have the problems I saw. One practice was for “prophets” to meet with people in their homes and give them “personal prophetic messages from God”. There were also esoteric systems of understanding the mechanics of spiritual workings, (roots of bitterness, demonic strongholds) that have no basis in either scripture or tradition.

In my case, the spiritual pride of friends and very hurtful “prophetic messages” drove me away from the Lord for a few years, and tragically, the loose, subjective teachings lead me into the study of New Age philosophies that are totally apostate. Now, obviously, if it were the Holy Spirit really working here, that would not have been the outcome. I would like to point out that the practice of going directly to people for “prophetic messages” is very similar to going to a psychic, and borders on seeking divinations. The reason why we do not seek “experiences” or divinations is because those things are not substantial, they do not build spiritual discipline. Spiritual discipline is developed by practicing obedience, through that obedience, allowing the fruits of the spirit to flourish.

*No, what I found is that true spirituality is not about gifts but about fruits. * That is the measure of how close you are to the Lord- whether or not you are bearing the fruits of the spirit.

Notice that a gift is not something we seek, it is given unexpectedly, and is not commonplace. A fruit, on the other hand, is something we nourish daily and work on developing and growing.

I personally think there is a lot of error in the Catholic church, too, (which I speak out against) but I am called into this Church, and I find Christ very present in the liturgy and sacraments. On the major theological points, I agree with the Church.
 
Hisalone said:
Its hard to believe if you are from the Vineyard to lose the gift of worship that you learned, a place where worship is not a “sideline sport” but everyone participates.
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By the way, I most certainly did not “lose” anything. I would have no problem visiting and participating in my family’s AOG church and worship style. Again, here is the pride that I was discussing earlier, and the blindness to how truly present the Holy Spirit is in worship that is not flashy but full of humility.

For example, the humility and participation of worship in Mass. Mass is as far from a sideline sport as I can imagine. In fact, I would say Mass is the opposite of a sideline sport. You respond and acknowledge the word of God by mouth. You sing praises to God. You kneel in worship. And then you enter into the most intimate union with God through the sacrament of communion.

Sideline sport? Not at all. Simply because nobody is dancing in the aisles?

I didn’t lose anything, I gained the fullness of Christ in the Church.
 
honeysuckle said:
equip.org/site/c.muI1LaMNJrE/b.2759553/k.BD5A/DP245.htm
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This article is less than convincing.

As I understand the logic of the article.
  • There are reports of God doing gold fillings
  • God would not do gold fillings
  • Therefore these folks are counterfeit.
Now I have no idea whether these folks Mr. Hanegraaff cites are counterfeit, and personally I could care less.

However, I can’t see any sound reason why God can and would not do gold fillings. As far as I am concerned, God can do whatever he wants.

The only issue I see here is whether this is something that God did actually do. So where is the evidence that He did not do this? If Mr. Hanegraaff can cite this evidence, he would be much more convincing.

Instead, he dismisses the possibility entirely; and I am sorry God can do whatever he pleases.

BTW, a missionary from Peru came to our church and claimed that something just like this happened in Peru (and happened to him…he made available his tooth to see if anybody wanted to).

Do I know for sure that God did this? No. Do I have a basis for dismissing it entirely without good reason? No. (I do note that poor people in Peru do not have access to dental care…maybe this is something that God did).
 
You obviously are totally ignorant of the whole issue, and have nothing to contribute to this discussion, but want to try to pick an argument with me. Hank wrote a book called Counterfeit Revival that goes into the issues in much more depth. It was a huge debate in the Protestant community in the 90s.
 
honeysuckle said:
You obviously are totally ignorant of the whole issue, and have nothing to contribute to this discussion, but want to try to pick an argument with me. Hank wrote a book called Counterfeit Revival that goes into the issues in much more depth. It was a huge debate in the Protestant community in the 90s.
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obviously totally ignorant:shrug: 🤷 🤷
 
Because if you were acquainted with the excesses and errors Hank is briefly touching on in this article, you would know that the issues go much deeper than whether or not God can turn teeth into gold.
 
honeysuckle said:
By the way, I most certainly did not “lose” anything. I would have no problem visiting and participating in my family’s AOG church and worship style. Again, here is the pride that I was discussing earlier, and the blindness to how truly present the Holy Spirit is in worship that is not flashy but full of humility.

For example, the humility and participation of worship in Mass. Mass is as far from a sideline sport as I can imagine. In fact, I would say Mass is the opposite of a sideline sport. You respond and acknowledge the word of God by mouth. You sing praises to God. You kneel in worship. And then you enter into the most intimate union with God through the sacrament of communion.

Sideline sport? Not at all. Simply because nobody is dancing in the aisles?

I didn’t lose anything, I gained the fullness of Christ in the Church.
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What pride that folks honor and love God and sing praises and exalt Him and His name?
Where is the pride in this?
 
mozart-250 said:
obviously totally ignorant:shrug: 🤷 🤷
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I cant see someone who never was at Toronto
Never at Brownsville never attended aRodney Howard Brown meeting calling someone else tottally ignorant. Seems to me she is placing judgement on something she does not know of.
Where am I wrong?
 
honeysuckle said:
Because if you were acquainted with the excesses and errors Hank is briefly touching on in this article, you would know that the issues go much deeper than whether or not God can turn teeth into gold.
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Once again what are those excesses and errors.
Are you familiar with what Hank says about Catholicsm?
 
HisAlone,

I have a background in psychology, and in my opinion, you are acting in some pretty inconsistent ways that are characteristic of someone who has some unresolved issues.

First of all, you have left the Catholicism, and yet you continue to attack the beliefs of Catholics on message boards, and then deny that you are attacking them. You certainly aren’t here to spread truth and light. Why are you doing it?

Second, you attack my experience of the Holy Spirit in the Mass, and when I tell you that is your spiritual pride, you deny that you have attacked my experience, and deny the prideful attitude of someone who would demean another’s experience of the Holy Spirit with these wods, “What pride that folks honor and love God and sing praises and exalt Him and His name?
Where is the pride in this?”

Do you really believe what you are saying there? I don’t know how you can. You attacked my experience of the Holy Spirit in Mass, saying I had “lost my knowledge of how to worship” or something to that effect, which is prideful. Then you slip and slide away from any accountability for doing that by saying what you say above in italics.

Third, you say this, "I cant see someone who never was at Toronto
Never at Brownsville never attended aRodney Howard Brown meeting calling someone else tottally ignorant. Seems to me she is placing judgement on something she does not know of.
Where am I wrong?

This is enormously insincere. This is total obfuscation. I have already established my personal knowledge of these movements, and I do not need to have actually been at Brownsville to have personal knowledge of what was going on at Brownsville.

Fourth, you then challenge me to discuss the issues Hank Hannegraff raised in the Counterfeit Revival, ignoring the fact I have already addressed issues of false teaching and excess in a previous post. You ignored that post. Go back to that post and deal with it before you tell me to list any more theological issues.Clear obfuscation.

Fifth, you attempt to distort the issue by asking me if I know what CRI thinks of Catholicism. Who cares, Hisalone? How is that pertinent to this conversation?

I really question why you are on these boards when you refuse to deal with the issues that people bring to you in an honest manner.
 
honeysuckle said:
Because if you were acquainted with the excesses and errors Hank is briefly touching on in this article, you would know that the issues go much deeper than whether or not God can turn teeth into gold.
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In the article cited Hank does not touch an any excesses and/or errors. Hank just uses the faulty logic I cited.

And for the record, I was around during the 1995 time period and am quite familiar with the “laughing revival” (at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship and Brownsville) and the issues surrounding it (obviously totally ignorant:rolleyes: :rotfl: :rotfl: 🤷 ). Churches up here in Vermont split over the issue.

That does not mean that the logic employed in this article is correct. Instead the logic employed by this article is similar to the Chick tract logic where the reader must assume that the referenced institution is evil.

Again…I see no reason why I should assume God can not fill teeth. The only issue here is did He.
 
Ok here are my thoughts towards Pentecostals. I have a two fold approach. The first is doctrine and the second is practical applications ( or experiential).

Having attended Lee this is what my investigation into this denomination has lead me to find problematic.

The first is this : “• In the verbal inspiration of the Bible” These Pentecostals are primarily Prima Scriptura or Scriptures first. The scriptures are the primary authority however this is backed up by the Leading of the Holy Spirit. In their theology there can be new revelation (as long as it’s supported by the bible).
Two personal points to this: The bible they mention here is not the scriptures refered to by the Early Church Fathers (Septuigant) but the Protestant Bible which is ordered like the LXX but includes only those included in the Hebrew bible. Not really bad so far as that goes. Don’t get confused they may say scriptures but they mean the modern selection since the ancient church used the older version. LXX. They hold to all the NT scriptures as authoritative.
the next personal point is this The Holy Spirit is the authority in how this revelation is to be interpreted and understood. When have Protestants agreed to anything? Much less this denomination. They split early in their history, which is short, creating COGOP from COG. Personal interpretation is their authority "as led by the spirit. Vague huh? Who’s to say which Spirit lead interpretation is correct? yours or mine. Authority for scriptures is problematic here. Keep in mind snake handlers split from the COGOP based on their personal revelation. Which is very problematic.
 
sambos671 said:
Ok here are my thoughts towards Pentecostals. I have a two fold approach. The first is doctrine and the second is practical applications ( or experiential).

Having attended Lee this is what my investigation into this denomination has lead me to find problematic.

The first is this : “• In the verbal inspiration of the Bible” These Pentecostals are primarily Prima Scriptura or Scriptures first. The scriptures are the primary authority however this is backed up by the Leading of the Holy Spirit. In their theology there can be new revelation (as long as it’s supported by the bible).
Two personal points to this: The bible they mention here is not the scriptures refered to by the Early Church Fathers (Septuigant) but the Protestant Bible which is ordered like the LXX but includes only those included in the Hebrew bible. Not really bad so far as that goes. Don’t get confused they may say scriptures but they mean the modern selection since the ancient church used the older version. LXX. They hold to all the NT scriptures as authoritative.
the next personal point is this The Holy Spirit is the authority in how this revelation is to be interpreted and understood. When have Protestants agreed to anything? Much less this denomination. They split early in their history, which is short, creating COGOP from COG. Personal interpretation is their authority "as led by the spirit. Vague huh? Who’s to say which Spirit lead interpretation is correct? yours or mine. Authority for scriptures is problematic here. Keep in mind snake handlers split from the COGOP based on their personal revelation. Which is very problematic.
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Thanks sambos671. What does the “OP” stand for?
 
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