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Hodos
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I would imagine that the pro-life advocates within the Democratic party are the same as those who crossed the aisle and voted for the anti-infanticide bill recently. You might try checking the voting record there.
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Erikaspirit16
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Let’s see now. I quoted the catechism, canon law, John Paul II, the Bible…and mentioned Augustine, Jerome, and Aquinas. The last I heard, these were all good Catholic sources.
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Erikaspirit16
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Wait a minute! Who has lost track of the original question, you or me?
This was the original post. I’m answering the question. “most are radically pro-abortion” is a statement like the question “When did you stop beating your wife?” They are NOT “pro-abortion.” They are pro-choice. They are completely different positions. They ARE pro-life. Just not according to your definition.
It’s like if I posted something that said “Why are all Republicans in favor of locking up little children in cages?”
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Camehome4john6
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If you insist on using snippets of quotes to justify your belief that killing a baby is ok, the only thing I can do is pray for you.
But I’d suggest starting a new thread so as not to derail this one.
But I’d suggest starting a new thread so as not to derail this one.
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Erikaspirit16
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I don’t think killing a baby is OK. Please don’t put words into my mouth, or the mouths of Democrats. Or pro-choice people in general.
Let me quote from yet another Church document, Decretam Gratiani, which was a collection of canon law not superseded until 1917: “He is not a murderer who brings about abortion before the soul is in the body.” Official Church teaching until 1869.
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alcuin18
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I figured this would turn into a debate about abortion, even though as I said in my original post, that wasn’t my intention. It’s impossible to avoid arguments on the internet as I’ve learned through experience, but I appreciate everyone’s replies that actually addressed my original question rather than something unrelated to it (and yes, quoting a part of my original post to start a new discussion IS unrelated to my actual question). I just thank God for giving us the perfect and unchanging truth of His Church so that despite all the confusion and sin in the world, there is one constant of goodness and truth, even if it is constantly attacked by those who claim to follow it.
(If the separate issue in question is continued by this reply, I will not address it. The teaching of the Church is clear, despite our preferences, so there is nothing to debate.)
(If the separate issue in question is continued by this reply, I will not address it. The teaching of the Church is clear, despite our preferences, so there is nothing to debate.)
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Hodos
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Per my previous comment, these are the Democratic senators who supported the anti-infanticide bill. Obviously this only covers Senators since the bill was blocked in the House. I believe there were 20 Representatives in the House who crossed the aisle for this vote. This also doesn’t include any Democratic state governors. None of the people below are running for President at this time though.
Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.V., Bob Casey, D-Pa., and Doug Jones, D-Ala.
Sens. Joe Manchin, D-W.V., Bob Casey, D-Pa., and Doug Jones, D-Ala.
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FiveLinden
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None of them are ‘pro abortion’. They just do not seek to use the power of the state to limit or direct women’s decisions about abortion. Laws against abortion do not prevent abortion. Democratic contenders have a range of views on late abortions but usually reject attempts to pass laws against these rare and complex events as simple virtue-signalling by those in favour of legal restrictions on abortion. At least that is how I read the US situation, from the outside.
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CatholicSooner
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CatholicSooner:
And so you KNOW what absolute truth is, right? And all those ignorant Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and atheists are clueless. And the Church itself was clueless until 1869. Remarkable. My congratulations!
Actually, Scripture is NOT clear. John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, 1995: “The texts of Sacred Scripture never address the question of deliberate abortion and so do not directly and specifically condemn it.”
And if you want to quote Scripture on the subject, why not start with Genesis 2:7-- "“He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.” Interesting, right? Man is formed (has nostrils!) before God breaths the “breath of life” into him and makes him a “living person.” Sounds pretty much like the position of the Church before 1869 and the current position of most other religions. Amazing!
- You are taking things out of context. Scripture does not specifically mention abortion but it talks about life in the womb. And sacred scripture is clear in the fact that John the Baptist, a mortal man, could recognize and react to Jesus while both were in the womb.
And that 1869 point is laughable. The church is allowed to change their thinking on social topics with divine revelation. They realized that using when a mother could feel the child move as having consciousness isn’t correct. And with the advent of technology, etc we know that fetus feel pain from the very early stages of development
Bottom line, can I be certain that life begins at conception? No. Can I prove it? No. But I do know that at conception there is a new creation that is alive. That isn’t debatable. And this new creation is a human being. That isn’t debatable. Lets pretend that life indeed doesn’t begin until actual birth and I am wrong. My wrong is that I didn’t terminate a living human in teh womb. Now lets pretend that you are wrong and that life begins at conception. Your wrong is murder. Which side do you want to be on?
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Sbee0
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Yes no-one is “pro abortion” per se but it’s accurate to label them pro abortion rights. Which the “pro abortion” label probably refers to.alcuin18:
They are all “pro-life.” They are also “pro-choice.” Pro-choice does NOT mean you are for abortion, it means you respect the religions and beliefs of other people and do not insist on imposing your own religious beliefs on others. Simple. If you want to call that “pro-abortion” go ahead, but it would be a lie.
It’s also arguable that the respect you talk about doesn’t exist for many on the Left side of this issue. They’re not prochoice at all as there can be fierce hostility to those who they disagree with. Like the pro life woman in Canada who was roundhouse-kicked for being pro life. That’s not being prochoice if you assault me for making a different choice than you agree with.
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CatholicSooner
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You are actually hurting your case. This quote was from a time when it wasn’t believed that a fetus had a soul. The quote is still accurate but the belief of when the soul is present has changed.Camehome4john6:
I don’t think killing a baby is OK. Please don’t put words into my mouth, or the mouths of Democrats. Or pro-choice people in general.
Let me quote from yet another Church document, Decretam Gratiani, which was a collection of canon law not superseded until 1917: “He is not a murderer who brings about abortion before the soul is in the body.” Official Church teaching until 1869.
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painters2
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And that is why I cannot vote for a democrat on the state or federal level…they all
support killing the unborn.
support killing the unborn.
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Peeps
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I’m guessing his church (LDS) had some words with him in private about his pro-choice stance.
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Peeps
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Senator Manchin seems like a decent guy, and he does owe Pres. Trump, because Pres. Trump did not campaign in W. Va for Sen. Manchin’s Republican opponent. The fact that Sen. Manchin pays back his debt tells me that he’s honorable.
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Vonsalza
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Sure, there’s violence on both sides. Reminds me of the cretins that bombed clinics when I was a kid.
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ZMystiCat
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I think you missed the point of my post. I was not commenting on the morality of abortion but the quoted statement. Nothing more.
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otjm
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Over the years the Democratic Party has moved farther and farther into a progressive agenda, to the point where it is hard for any Democrat in public office to be any form of pro-life. and given the changes during the last Administration and the current one, there are more and more Democrats becoming Marxist based. Sadly, young voters seem to think this is in their favor. About the only hope I have for this country is that we can appoint one more Constitutionalist Supreme Court judge before 2020.
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dochawk
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Now, now. In all fairness, it can also be used about the choice to “own” other human beings . . .
My wife was one of those in the days before I met her . . . and then one look through a microscope in a class . . .
Kathy Ireland tells a similar story . . .
You are aware, I presume, that a strong majority wants significantly stronger restrictions on abortion than exist today in the US?
So was the confederacy, by this definition, but no-one would take you seriously if you suggested that it wasn’t pro-slavery . . .
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Joe_5859
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West Virginia is one of those “blue collar Democrat” type of places, which is pretty much the constituency that Trump was able to win over and get elected. So it makes sense that Manchin wants to cooperate with Trump whenever possible. I don’t envy him trying to navigate those waters. It does sort of make him an ideal liaison, though.
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