Any protestant or non-christian closet-devotees of Mary, Mother of Christ?

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Marybeloved

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I’m curious, After all the miracles that Catholics and Orthodox credit to the Mother of Christ, like Zeitoun, Icons weeping healing oil or myrrh, Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe etc, Are there people from “non-Marian” traditions who secretly desire and even practice devotions and prayers to her, without joining the Catholic or Orthodox churches? If so, any one experienced her help in a real and tangible way?

Please come-out and share!! 😃
 
I know of some Pagans who see her as a goddess (or a goddess-like person, anyways) who pray to her, especially those of the Christo-Pagan/Christian Witch variety. I know of one Heathen who has a relationship with her, along with several other non-Germanic deities, but no details.
 
OF COURSE JAKASAKI. For a christian person to believe that it would mean there is no basis for christianity LOL. I noticed you have never once argued the facts but keep on arguing things that dont matter.
 
Lokabrenna said:
I know of some Pagans who see her as a goddess (or a goddess-like person, anyways) who pray to her, especially those of the Christo-Pagan/Christian Witch variety. I know of one Heathen who has a relationship with her, along with several other non-Germanic deities, but no details.
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I would question to which heavenly vision of the blessed Mother Virgin Mary do your Pagans pray to?

Can you name which heavenly vision of the virgin Mary for example; do they pray to Mary in the nativity scene holding the divine child, Our Mother of Joy? Do they pray to Mary revealed at the foot of the cross our Mother of sorrows? Do they pray to Mary revealed in heaven Revelations 12:1 in glory crowned by God in heaven? How about the feast of Cana? How about the visitation from the angel Gabriel? or how about Lourdes our Mother of prayer in her rosary?

Do you know exactly which heavenly revelation of Mary do these pagans pray too?

Because if there “goddess-like person” is not revealed in scripture or does not follow the heavens revelations, then the pagans self proclaimed “goddess” is never the blessed Mother Virgin Mary, unless they are mocking “theotokos” as satanist conduct black mass.

Can you define “a Heathen relationship” with Mary?
 
LUV4ALL said:
On a sidenote, Mary the bleoved mother of Jesus is buried in the city of MUREE in Pakistan.

[campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/marianshrine(name removed by moderator)akistan.htm](http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/resources/marianshrine(name removed by moderator)akistan.htm)
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If this is true for all Muslims? Are Muslims flocking to this sacred sight “MUREE” in pilgrimage, as is the custom of Islam, To pilgrimage to the sight of Fatima?

If Muslims are not flocking to this Muree sight, then why are you trying to convince others? IF this were true, Muslims would be the first to declare this “Muree” a holy sight? Facts are supported by living proof.
 
Marybeloved said:
I’m curious, After all the miracles that Catholics and Orthodox credit to the Mother of Christ, like Zeitoun, Icons weeping healing oil or myrrh, Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe etc, Are there people from “non-Marian” traditions who secretly desire and even practice devotions and prayers to her, without joining the Catholic or Orthodox churches? If so, any one experienced her help in a real and tangible way?

Please come-out and share!! 😃
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In order to hold the Blessed Virgin in high esteem and regard, to believe she is “the noblest gem in all Christendom except Christ Himself”", is it a requirement to ask for her intercession?

Jon
 
JonNC said:
In order to hold the Blessed Virgin in high esteem and regard, to believe she is “the noblest gem in all Christendom except Christ Himself”", is it a requirement to ask for her intercession?

Jon
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Blessings Jon;

To be a Catholic in good standing with the Church does not require one to have a “devotion” to the blessed Mother of Jesus.

Although what is binding on all Christian believers is that Mary is “Theotokos” Mother of God.

Mary **remained a Virgin **before during and after giving birth to Jesus.

Mary is “Immaculate” concieved without original sin, different from John the baptist birth, because John the baptist was born without sin because John was baptised in the holy Spirit When John heard Mary’s voice while in her counsin Elizabeths womb…

Mary is the first Christian (before the second coming) God has assumed into heaven both body and soul in her “Assumption”.

Luke the Gospel writer a “Greek pagan convert” is the first to record a devotion to the blessed Mother; “From now on all nations will call me blessed”. Many if not all the ECF’s held the blessed Mother in devotions and high esteem, in fact the “Hail Mary” completes the second half of the biblical angelic psalter from the council of Ephesus when the Church confirmed Mary “Theotokos”. “Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners”
 
Marybeloved said:
I’m curious, After all the miracles that Catholics and Orthodox credit to the Mother of Christ, like Zeitoun, Icons weeping healing oil or myrrh, Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe etc, Are there people from “non-Marian” traditions who secretly desire and even practice devotions and prayers to her, without joining the Catholic or Orthodox churches? If so, any one experienced her help in a real and tangible way?

Please come-out and share!! 😃
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No, but because I accept the notion of intercession of the saints, I have prayed for her intercession on one occasion. But I was nervous and felt I was going to be smited soon after. 😊
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
If this is true for all Muslims? Are Muslims flocking to this sacred sight “MUREE” in pilgrimage, as is the custom of Islam, To pilgrimage to the sight of Fatima?

If Muslims are not flocking to this Muree sight, then why are you trying to convince others? IF this were true, Muslims would be the first to declare this “Muree” a holy sight? Facts are supported by living proof.
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No - it’s only true / belief of the Ahmadi muslims - created by their self proclaimed prophet from India in the 1800’s

Sunny islam does not believe this - they make up 85=% of the islamic muslim population

Shia islam does not beleive this - they make up about 10% of the islamic muslim population

It’s only the Ahmadiyya muslim that believe this.
 
jakasaki said:
No - it’s only true / belief of the Ahmadi muslims - created by their self proclaimed prophet from India in the 1800’s

Sunny islam does not believe this - they make up 85=% of the islamic muslim population

Shia islam does not beleive this - they make up about 10% of the islamic muslim population

It’s only the Ahmadiyya muslim that believe this.
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Interesting, so Islam has its own protestantism within its ranks?

Do you know if the Ahmadi muslims conduct pilgrimages to this supposed sight?
 
And blessings also with you, Gabe.
=Gabriel of 12;8469566]
To be a Catholic in good standing with the Church does not require one to have a “devotion” to the blessed Mother of Jesus.
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That is what I have heard. Thanks.
Although what is binding on all Christian believers is that Mary is “Theotokos” Mother of God.
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Agreed.
Mary **remained a Virgin **before during and after giving birth to Jesus.
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Agreed, and the Lutheran Confessions say so, though it is not considered binding on us.
Mary is “Immaculate” concieved without original sin, different from John the baptist birth, because John the baptist was born without sin because John was baptised in the holy Spirit When John heard Mary’s voice while in her counsin Elizabeths womb…
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Do the Orthodox agree? Do you consider the Catholic construct regarding the IC to be the specific belief regarding her sinlessness?
Mary is the first Christian (before the second coming) God has assumed into heaven both body and soul in her “Assumption”.
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Agreed with the first. On the Assumption, same question regarding the Orthodox, or is Dormition an acceptable variation?
Luke the Gospel writer a “Greek pagan convert” is the first to record a devotion to the blessed Mother; “From now on all nations will call me blessed”. Many if not all the ECF’s held the blessed Mother in devotions and high esteem, in fact the “Hail Mary” completes the second half of the biblical angelic psalter from the council of Ephesus when the Church confirmed Mary “Theotokos”. “Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners”
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I agree with all of this, except the second half of the “Hail Mary.” But on that, is it enough to know that she prays for us even without our invocation?

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I agree with all of this, except the second half of the “Hail Mary.” But on that, is it enough to know that she prays for us even without our invocation?

Jon
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Curious question:
If Lutherans believe that the Church Triumphant does indeed pray for us, why would it be strange to invoke their intercession? Wouldn’t it simply make sense to do so?
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
Interesting, so Islam has its own protestantism within its ranks?

Do you know if the Ahmadi muslims conduct pilgrimages to this supposed sight?
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Yes they do…

Their claim is that Jesus left Jerusalem and went east Afganistan and towards India along with The Blessed Mother Mary.

Their claim is that Jesus settled in India, got married, had children and he lived to be 90+ or 100+

He, Jesus whom they call Isa/Essa, died there and was buried right next to Mother Mary, whom had also died in India.

So, they claim they have 2 tomb stones - 1 for Jesus & 1 for Mary

And yes, they do make pilgrimages there to this place.

Sunni & Shia islam call them heretics and they do not consider them muslims at all.

They, the Ahmadi muslims, are being persecuted by the rest of islam.

Just last week they killed many Ahmadi muslims I believe in Pakistan during their mosque time.

They are a target just like Christians are in those islamic countries.
 
FabiusMaximus said:
Curious question:
If Lutherans believe that the Church Triumphant does indeed pray for us, why would it be strange to invoke their intercession? Wouldn’t it simply make sense to do so?
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What the confessions say is that there is no command, example, or promise attached to the practice in scripture, even including the events portrayed in 2 Macc. The issue is not whether or not they pray for us, the Church Militant, in a general way. Scripture clearly says they do. The question for us is whether or not God has the intention that we invoke them directly for intercession. On this scripture is silent. That’s not to say, however, that we can’t ask God to hear their prayers in our behalf. It seems to me we should, and I have done so, most notably with St. Peregrine in connection with prostate cancer a few years ago.

Jon
 
jakasaki said:
Yes they do…

Their claim is that Jesus left Jerusalem and went east Afganistan and towards India along with The Blessed Mother Mary.

Their claim is that Jesus settled in India, got married, had children and he lived to be 90+ or 100+

He, Jesus whom they call Isa/Essa, died there and was buried right next to Mother Mary, whom had also died in India.

So, they claim they have 2 tomb stones - 1 for Jesus & 1 for Mary

And yes, they do make pilgrimages there to this place.

Sunni & Shia islam call them heretics and they do not consider them muslims at all.

They, the Ahmadi muslims, are being persecuted by the rest of islam.

Just last week they killed many Ahmadi muslims I believe in Pakistan during their mosque time.

They are a target just like Christians are in those islamic countries.
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Thanks for the information and update. I will pray for the Ahmadi muslims. So this Ahmadi shrine is not believed in by all muslims. It sounded strange at first, but thanks for clearing it up:thumbsup:

So Ahmadi muslims derive from India and are a minority group in the Islam faith? Iam aware of Islam expansion into India, but I was not aware that Islam took on a different form from the rest of Eastern Islam. Interesting, do you know of any sites off hand that records the history of the Ahmadi? Thanks, if not Iam conducting a search…

Peace be with you
 
Gabriel_of_12 said:
Thanks for the information and update. I will pray for the Ahmadi muslims. So this Ahmadi shrine is not believed in by all muslims. It sounded strange at first, but thanks for clearing it up:thumbsup:

So Ahmadi muslims derive from India and are a minority group in the Islam faith? Iam aware of Islam expansion into India, but I was not aware that Islam took on a different form from the rest of Eastern Islam. Interesting, do you know of any sites off hand that records the history of the Ahmadi? Thanks, if not Iam conducting a search…

Peace be with you
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Their “sec” was created in the 1800’s by a self proclaimed prophet in India - I believe it was during British rule.

You can google Ahmadi or ahmadiyya and read all about them .

They are considered a “heretical” sect by mainstream islam
 
JonNC;8469614]
Do the Orthodox agree? Do you consider the Catholic construct regarding the IC to be the specific belief regarding her sinlessness?
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The Orthodox position on Mary being sinless does not reach far back into the Old testament prophecies as being “Immaculately concieved” fulfilled in the salvation plan of God. Orthodox are holding to a position that Mary did not sin but had the capability to sin. Never the less special devotion to “theotokos” is reached in both liturgies and practices.

Depends what you define as “construct”? For me “Emmanuel” (God with us) could never touch sin when taking on our humanity in the Blessed Virgin Mary’s womb, this “Woman” the title Jesus diginified His mother Mary with must be Immaculate.

The protoevangelium Gen.3:15 introduces into the path of time when God places an “Enmity” between satan (sin) and the woman. God made her immaculate so that the divine holy son of God can take on human flesh to legally lawfully by creation save humanity.

A woman is cursed with birth pains from original sin. Isaiah the prophet who foretold of the coming virgin birth, later announces “She gives birth without birth pains, who ever heard of such a thing” see Isaiah 66;7-8. All these prophecies fulfilled because Jesus fulfilled **“ALL **THE PROPHETS AND THE LAW”.

Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture reveals the “Immaculate conception” of Mary.
Agreed with the first. On the Assumption, same question regarding the Orthodox, or is Dormition an acceptable variation?
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When it comes to these Marian doctrines, The Orthodox refuse the growth and development of these doctrines. In short their theology does not conflict with Roman Catholicism. Catholics still maintain its original Orthodoxy, but with more emphasis, clarity, growing understanding and maturity of development from what God has revealed followed by heavens signs and wonders. What you may look to see a difference between Orthodox and Catholics, to me is never a difference. One branch Catholicism of the True vine has matured in growth and developed in clearer understanding ever reaching to the sun for life, while the other branch Orthodox remains shaded on the vine.

Just because the lower braches of the same tree remain shaded from the sun, does mean it is different from the branches that are exposed to the sun for growth. The shaded branch remains closest to the root of the Tree, while the sunny branch seeks growth to bring food and water to the root.

Jon this is the best I can do for you in a short summary, regarding Catholic/Orthodox Marian theology.
I agree with all of this, except the second half of the “Hail Mary.” But on that, is it enough to know that she prays for us even without our invocation?
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My short answer is this; If you want to get close to Jesus personally, learn to be friends with His Mother. This philosophy holds to true to carnal relations. Mary is more alive than you and I are because she is in the eternal presence of God. Asking her to pray for us, is believing all Jesus did on the Cross because She lives as Jesus lives.

Jon pray for me? Did that hurt asking you to pray for me? Catholics believe in the resurection and live this faith by asking our Saints to pray for us.

Do you know the history of the bibical angelic psalter and how the ECF’s prayed it as we have it today in the “Hail Mary”?
 
Hi Marybeloved,

Interesting post/question. As one with a solid Catholic background plus 20 years in Protestant circles I only remember one Protestant who had no Catholic teaching/knowledge who said when he saw “The Song of Bernadette” he believed it as he didn’t see how it could possibly not be true. Other than that, in my experience, Protestants are completely ignorant of Mary other than the erroneous explanations they have been told.

Personally, I like her and I don’t see why Protestants are so against the Catholic devotion of Mary other than just the false assumptions they have of her.
 
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