Any protestant or non-christian closet-devotees of Mary, Mother of Christ?

[Lokabrenna]

I would question to which heavenly vision of the blessed Mother Virgin Mary do your Pagans pray to?

Can you name which heavenly vision of the virgin Mary for example; do they pray to Mary in the nativity scene holding the divine child, Our Mother of Joy? Do they pray to Mary revealed at the foot of the cross our Mother of sorrows? Do they pray to Mary revealed in heaven Revelations 12:1 in glory crowned by God in heaven? How about the feast of Cana? How about the visitation from the angel Gabriel? or how about Lourdes our Mother of prayer in her rosary?

Do you know exactly which heavenly revelation of Mary do these pagans pray too?

Because if there “goddess-like person” is not revealed in scripture or does not follow the heavens revelations, then the pagans self proclaimed “goddess” is never the blessed Mother Virgin Mary, unless they are mocking “theotokos” as satanist conduct black mass.

Can you define “a Heathen relationship” with Mary?

As I said before, I don’t have details, as I’m not a “closet-devotee” of Mary, but I’m certain the Christo-Pagans I mentioned don’t shy away from heterodox interpretations of scripture.

I’m sure there are better websites than this one, but Lunaea Weatherstone (who is involved in Goddess spirituality, which is not necessarily Paganism) has a few pages devoted to Mary which basically explain in a nutshell how she fits into the Maiden, Mother, and Crone archetypes, not saying I agree with any of it, just pointing it out. Think of it as a curiosity.

 

[Marybeloved]

And blessings also with you, Gabe.

That is what I have heard. Thanks.

Agreed.

Agreed, and the Lutheran Confessions say so, though it is not considered binding on us.

Do the Orthodox agree? Do you consider the Catholic construct regarding the IC to be the specific belief regarding her sinlessness?

Agreed with the first. On the Assumption, same question regarding the Orthodox, or is Dormition an acceptable variation?

I agree with all of this, except the second half of the “Hail Mary.” But on that, is it enough to know that she prays for us even without our invocation?

Jon

Hi, Jon,

There’s no question that the Orthodox believe in the Holiness and sinlessness of the Theotokos- She never sinned. The disagreement has to do with original sin, not Our Lady’s sinlessness. But Mary has always been celebrated in Orthodox liturgy as “All- Immaculate, All Holy” and “more glorious than the seraphim and cherubim”.

There’s no real difference between the Assumption and the dormition, as far as I’m concerned, celebrated on the same August 15th everywhere for centuries. This is because the Catholic dogma of assumption says nothing of the manner in which the Mother of God ended her life on earth. It just says that when that life ended, the Mother of God was assumed body and soul into heaven- which is what the dormition says happened after Mary died. Many Catholics, including myself, believe she died because this is what has always been believed for the longest time. The assumption is formally defined dogma and cannot be disbelieved by Catholics without heresy- But to believe it means only to believe what it specifically defines- simply that Mary’s body was taken to heaven along with her soul- or Mary is in heaven, body and soul.

 

[Marybeloved]

No, but because I accept the notion of intercession of the saints, I have prayed for her intercession on one occasion. But I was nervous and felt I was going to be smited soon after.

Oh, this is so sad. But hey, at least you proved to yourself that no smitting accompanies her invocation!

 

[Marybeloved]

In order to hold the Blessed Virgin in high esteem and regard, to believe she is “the noblest gem in all Christendom except Christ Himself”", is it a requirement to ask for her intercession?

Jon

Jon, I know Gabriel has given an answer but I honestly, with all my heart, cannot imagine any practicing Catholic who does not rely heavily on the Mother of God! That would be such a strange thing to imagine- Life without a prominent place for her??? It’s more than just weird or strange- It’s truly alien! I cannot even remember having “met” a saint yet, or pope, who did not rely heavily on her, and teach the same.

Since it’s such a prominent part of the liturgy in the East and West, and the liturgy is the action of the Church, I do not picture anyone but a heteredox living in the Church without the invocation of the Theotokos- Seriously. How can they refuse to do what the Church does, and does so much and has done for so long? Isn’t that a clear sign that there’s a serious problem there?

I also cannot imagine making any progress in the spiritual life (or anywhere else) without her constant help - Mary has always been the one to snatch me from the traps I fell into and return me to our Lord. It’s such a horrible thought to think of a Catholic with a spiritual and active church life (or not!) who lives life without her, it truly inspires a gut reaction in my stomach.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

As I said before, I don’t have details, as I’m not a “closet-devotee” of Mary, but I’m certain the Christo-Pagans I mentioned don’t shy away from heterodox interpretations of scripture.

I’m sure there are better websites than this one, but Lunaea Weatherstone (who is involved in Goddess spirituality, which is not necessarily Paganism) has a few pages devoted to Mary which basically explain in a nutshell how she fits into the Maiden, Mother, and Crone archetypes, not saying I agree with any of it, just pointing it out. Think of it as a curiosity.

Thanks for the site Lokabrenna; I read the first sentence and already this site fell into heresy and blasphemy, I could not continue the research.

It reminded me of the story when certain Jews were trying to perform an exorcism in the name of the Jesus that Paul preaches, when the evil spirits stated; “Jesus we know, Paul we know but who are you? instantly the evil spirits jumped on them and beat them up and they fled naked from that house” short version here read it for yourself in Acts 19:13-17.

Do you know if Curiosity killed the cat?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Jon, I know Gabriel has given an answer but I honestly, with all my heart, cannot imagine any practicing Catholic who does not rely heavily on the Mother of God! That would be such a strange thing to imagine- Life without a prominent place for her??? It’s more than just weird or strange- It’s truly alien! I cannot even remember having “met” a saint yet, or pope, who did not rely heavily on her, and teach the same.

Since it’s such a prominent part of the liturgy in the East and West, and the liturgy is the action of the Church, I do not picture anyone but a heteredox living in the Church without the invocation of the Theotokos- Seriously. How can they refuse to do what the Church does, and does so much and has done for so long? Isn’t that a clear sign that there’s a serious problem there?

I also cannot imagine making any progress in the spiritual life (or anywhere else) without her constant help - Mary has always been the one to snatch me from the traps I fell into and return me to our Lord. It’s such a horrible thought to think of a Catholic with a spiritual and active church life (or not!) who lives life without her, it truly inspires a gut reaction in my stomach.

For the record Marybeloved I have a great devotion to the blessed Mother ever Virgin Mary, in fact my devotion reaches back to unbroken family generations. The answer I gave to Jon was an official answer the Catholic church holds to today. I do agree with all of your post in regards to the Saints, Popes and ECF’s holding to a devotion to the blessed Mother.

Peace be with you

 

[Lokabrenna]

Do you know if Curiosity killed the cat?

The problem with that saying is that it’s only true if the cat’s on the last of its nine lives.
I guess it depends on how far you go with that curiosity. I’m curious about lots of things, but I control how far I want to take that curiosity.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The problem with that saying is that it’s only true if the cat’s on the last of its nine lives.
I guess it depends on how far you go with that curiosity. I’m curious about lots of things, but I control how far I want to take that curiosity.

Point well taken; Thanks for the site again

Peace be with you

 

[JonNC]

=Marybeloved;8470323]Hi, Jon,

There’s no question that the Orthodox believe in the Holiness and sinlessness of the Theotokos- She never sinned. The disagreement has to do with original sin, not Our Lady’s sinlessness. But Mary has always been celebrated in Orthodox liturgy as “All- Immaculate, All Holy” and “more glorious than the seraphim and cherubim”.

There’s no real difference between the Assumption and the dormition, as far as I’m concerned, celebrated on the same August 15th everywhere for centuries. This is because the Catholic dogma of assumption says nothing of the manner in which the Mother of God ended her life on earth. It just says that when that life ended, the Mother of God was assumed body and soul into heaven- which is what the dormition says happened after Mary died. Many Catholics, including myself, believe she died because this is what has always been believed for the longest time. The assumption is formally defined dogma and cannot be disbelieved by Catholics without heresy- But to believe it means only to believe what it specifically defines- simply that Mary’s body was taken to heaven along with her soul- or Mary is in heaven, body and soul

Thanks Marybeloved,
So, it seems variations on these two beliefs is ok. For example, were I to say that her sinlessness, via a miracle of God, began at the time of the visitation, this is accetable?
On the Assumption, if I say that I know she is in Heaven with her Son, but make no comment on how this happened, is this acceptable?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Jon, I know Gabriel has given an answer but I honestly, with all my heart, cannot imagine any practicing Catholic who does not rely heavily on the Mother of God! That would be such a strange thing to imagine- Life without a prominent place for her??? It’s more than just weird or strange- It’s truly alien! I cannot even remember having “met” a saint yet, or pope, who did not rely heavily on her, and teach the same.

Since it’s such a prominent part of the liturgy in the East and West, and the liturgy is the action of the Church, I do not picture anyone but a heteredox living in the Church without the invocation of the Theotokos- Seriously. How can they refuse to do what the Church does, and does so much and has done for so long? Isn’t that a clear sign that there’s a serious problem there?

I also cannot imagine making any progress in the spiritual life (or anywhere else) without her constant help - Mary has always been the one to snatch me from the traps I fell into and return me to our Lord. It’s such a horrible thought to think of a Catholic with a spiritual and active church life (or not!) who lives life without her, it truly inspires a gut reaction in my stomach.

Thanks for your testimony regarding the importance of the Blessed Virgin in your spiritual life. It speaks to your deep faith in our Savior. It, frankly, is quite inspiring.

His peace,
Jon

 

[Marybeloved]

Hi Marybeloved,

Interesting post/question. As one with a solid Catholic background plus 20 years in Protestant circles I only remember one Protestant who had no Catholic teaching/knowledge who said when he saw “The Song of Bernadette” he believed it as he didn’t see how it could possibly not be true. Other than that, in my experience, Protestants are completely ignorant of Mary other than the erroneous explanations they have been told.

Personally, I like her and I don’t see why Protestants are so against the Catholic devotion of Mary other than just the false assumptions they have of her.

Hi, Eafan,
I wonder, do you ever say a quick “O Mary, help me out here” yourself? Perhaps not, it would probably feel weird. Just curious. Thanx for sharing anyway.

 

[hn160]

Blessings Jon;

To be a Catholic in good standing with the Church does not require one to have a “devotion” to the blessed Mother of Jesus.

Although what is binding on all Christian believers is that Mary is “Theotokos” Mother of God.

Mary **remained a Virgin **before during and after giving birth to Jesus.

Mary is “Immaculate” concieved without original sin, different from John the baptist birth, because John the baptist was born without sin because John was baptised in the holy Spirit When John heard Mary’s voice while in her counsin Elizabeths womb…

Mary is the first Christian (before the second coming) God has assumed into heaven both body and soul in her “Assumption”.

Luke the Gospel writer a “Greek pagan convert” is the first to record a devotion to the blessed Mother; “From now on all nations will call me blessed”. Many if not all the ECF’s held the blessed Mother in devotions and high esteem, in fact the “Hail Mary” completes the second half of the biblical angelic psalter from the council of Ephesus when the Church confirmed Mary “Theotokos”. “Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us sinners”

I really don’t any problem with what you wrote. The Lutheran Confessions state this.

 

[Sufjon]

I’m curious, After all the miracles that Catholics and Orthodox credit to the Mother of Christ, like Zeitoun, Icons weeping healing oil or myrrh, Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe etc, Are there people from “non-Marian” traditions who secretly desire and even practice devotions and prayers to her, without joining the Catholic or Orthodox churches? If so, any one experienced her help in a real and tangible way?

Please come-out and share!!

Hi Marybeloved: It’s good to hear from you again. I pray to Mary daily, but it’s not a secret in my case, and I say the rosary from time to time. I have witnessed what I sincerely believe to be her help and presence first hand, and have given an account of that story a few times before on this forum, although I would be devoted to her with or without miracles.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Miriam1947]

I am co-owner of a Catholic store. I have one customer who is Salvation Army who prays the Rosary and stops in to get booklets for others.

 

[Marybeloved]

Thanks Marybeloved,
So, it seems variations on these two beliefs is ok. For example, were I to say that her sinlessness, via a miracle of God, began at the time of the visitation, this is accetable?
On the Assumption, if I say that I know she is in Heaven with her Son, but make no comment on how this happened, is this acceptable?

Jon

Hello, Jon,

I’m not quite sure what you call “visitation”- It seems you mean when the angel Gabriel came to her with the good news of Christ? We call this “the annunciation” and Mary’s visit to St. Elizabeth (and st. John in her womb), is what we call “the visitation”.

About your question, well, for Catholics, the Immaculate conception is defined dogma- So we must believe that the miracle you referred to, was wrought in her at the first instance of her existence in St. Ann’s womb (Her mother), so for Catholics, Mary was never with sin at all. The Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception because of our differences over the doctrine of Original sin. But I believe that they also believe without question, that Mary never had any sin throughout her life. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more, what you mean about the miracle happening at the visitation?

And the 2nd question, how the assumption took place? I don’t believe there is any teaching regarding that at all, apart from the belief that Mary did not take herself to heaven- She had no such power- Her assumption is always distinguished from Our Lord’s Ascension by the fact that Mary was taken to Heaven by Christ, whereas He ascended to Heaven on his own power as God. So, you’re right, no obligation on the “how” of the assumption- It’s a mystery. We cannot possibly know how a body is taken/translated to the spiritual realm or to heaven!- We only Know by what power (God’s) and not any more.

Peace!

 

[Zooey]

Well, there’s me, certainly.
But its not anything even resembling a secret about Zooey; I have done battle too many times around here, in Our Lady’s defense, for any doubt to remain about that!
The rosary is my favorite prayer.

 

[Marybeloved]

Hi Marybeloved: It’s good to hear from you again. I pray to Mary daily, but it’s not a secret in my case, and I say the rosary from time to time. I have witnessed what I sincerely believe to be her help and presence first hand, and have given an account of that story a few times before on this forum, although I would be devoted to her with or without miracles.

Your friend
Sufjon

Hello, My friend,

I should very much like to read your testimonies! Will try and dig them up from the archives.

Peace!

 

[Izdaari]

I would not especially call myself a devotee but I do believe Mary deserves great respect and admiration, though not worship. I note that Jesus did what she said at the wedding at Cana, even though he was 30 years old and already starting his ministry.

I believe Mary was a virgin until after Jesus’ birth, though I believe she had other sons and daughters afterward by her husband, Joseph, and this by no means detracts from her blessed state, since a wife and mother is no less blessed a condition than perpetual virginity.

Immaculate Conception? I don’t know, but I don’t think it matters.

 

[JonNC]

=Marybeloved;8473915]Hello, Jon,

I’m not quite sure what you call “visitation”- It seems you mean when the angel Gabriel came to her with the good news of Christ? We call this “the annunciation” and Mary’s visit to St. Elizabeth (and st. John in her womb), is what we call “the visitation”.

Sorry, yes. I meant the Annunciation.

About your question, well, for Catholics, the Immaculate conception is defined dogma- So we must believe that the miracle you referred to, was wrought in her at the first instance of her existence in St. Ann’s womb (Her mother), so for Catholics, Mary was never with sin at all. The Orthodox do not accept the Immaculate Conception because of our differences over the doctrine of Original sin. But I believe that they also believe without question, that Mary never had any sin throughout her life. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more, what you mean about the miracle happening at the visitation?

I meant, at the Annunciation, the miracle of her sinlessness took place, as opposed to at her conception (ISTM that this too would have to be a miracle).

And the 2nd question, how the assumption took place? I don’t believe there is any teaching regarding that at all, apart from the belief that Mary did not take herself to heaven- She had no such power- Her assumption is always distinguished from Our Lord’s Ascension by the fact that Mary was taken to Heaven by Christ, whereas He ascended to Heaven on his own power as God. So, you’re right, no obligation on the “how” of the assumption- It’s a mystery. We cannot possibly know how a body is taken/translated to the spiritual realm or to heaven!- We only Know by what power (God’s) and not any more.

I would agree. Thanks.

Peace!

And also with you,
Jon

 

[catholic111]

I am a closet catholic so yes I have a great devotion to Mary such as Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe and all those other titles. I have also got my grandmother to believe in these!! [BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]