Any Quakers online ?

[jewells17]

I understand. There have been many Seekers who never become comfortable with Meeting…for me the Living Silence has been a refuge and a balm to my soul as I leave behind the sounds and voices of the world and join with others in seeking to commune with the Presence…for me it is challenging to recognize and hear the voice of “that of God” in the “vocal ministry” that some others would bring…but that is also the joy of acknowleding that God is Present to teach us…and because it is challenging at times to “hear the voice of Christ” in what others would say…there is also a reward as well.

When I have attended a liturgical group for worship…or an evangelical worship service…I always leave it feeling feeling that something is missing…for me the experience is exchanging one set of “noise” for another…in other worship settings I never seem to be able to Center fully…there is always a song that needs to be sung…or a prayer that needs to be spoken…or I’m standing…or kneeling…or XYZ…my heart rarely is filled with the awareness of being in the Presence of God as it is in Meeting.

I really don’t think that poster was referring to the silence…at all. The silence in a Quaker Meeting is beautiful. The silence in an Adoration Chapel is hauntingly Holy. But that poster is not talking about the quiet being a problem.

 

[Publisher]

I really don’t think that poster was referring to the silence…at all. The silence in a Quaker Meeting is beautiful. The silence in an Adoration Chapel is hauntingly Holy. But that poster is not talking about the quiet being a problem.

It is difficult to speak “to the condition” of others as our experiences relating to others spiritual disiplines at times is strange to us. I understand the “feeling” of not being ministered to…or not 'hearing" the message we need to grow spiritually…I have felt similar when I’ve attended liturgical services, including Catholic.

Each of us finds our “niche” in what we are comfortable with and what ministers to us. While the feelings of “crying when I got home” was not as severe for me…I did feel “something” important was missing…I understand the feeling of “missing something”…for me the Quaker worship experience has made all the difference to me and my walk with God…as I’m sure becoming Catholic has made the difference for you and the poster.

 

[Abba]

**"Do we share our deepest beliefs and values with each other and with our children, while leaving them free to develop as the Spirit may lead them?

“How do we educate our members and attenders about the Bible (especially the teachings of Jesus), other spiritual literature, and the history, principles and practices of Friends?”**

I don’t clearly understand the ‘Jesus’ in Friend’s spirituality. From what I gathered, members are free to believe in anything as they work out their own salvation. The teachings of "Jesus’ are but tools amongst others to work out one’s own salvation. This appears to justify the ability to be selective with his teachings. What ever he said that would help the person to work out their own salvation may be taken and what may interfere can be set aside. There may be a Meeting of which the majority of ‘Elders’ consider that the teachings of ‘Jesus’ are very helpful and may guide the newer members to appreciate the teachings of "Jesus’ but, even this is selective and done in such a way as to have the objective to help the members to work out their own salvation. This seems to be how the picking and choosing of the teachings of "Jesus’ is justified, that is because the purpose is to gain spiritual development and knowledge as the members work out their own salvation.

 

[Student09]

But, there is one concept that is unifying and that is the idea that they are each working out their own salvation. This is where Our Lord Jesus and Sacred Scripture in reality play no role in the theology of the Quakers and neither his name nor the Bible should be used in such a way.

As I understand it, Catholics also believe that we are each working out our own salvation, but we believe we are doing so within the set framework of the Church. The Church has given us gifts (the sacraments, the teachings, creeds, etc) to help us in working out our salvation and we are obligated to make use of them (in the same way as one is obligated to eat in order to sustain life, etc). Whereas Quakers believe they are doing it completely independently. I’m guessing this is what you meant (though I don’t want to put words in your mouth!) but it might not be explicitly clear to non-Catholics.

 

[Publisher]

“Salvation” begins now…not in some far off etherial heaven…the Kingdom of God is NOW. We “work out our own salvation”, trusting that the Lord will guide us and teach us how to live…how to work for the betterment of society and our world. Eternity will take care of itself…“Now is the day of salvation, now is the appointed time.” We live in the Sacred Present…that means we do not wait until “eternity” to do what is right…we do what is right in the present.

“Eternity is set within our hearts”…“We have been translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son.”

For many Friends, including myself, I seek to live in the Divine Present…my neighbor wears the face of Christ…“abundant life”…“eternal life” begins today. I don’t know what the future holds…but I know Who holds the future…it is a different perspective I understand.

We can become bogged down in our theological statements that we loose sight of some things that need to happen TODAY…my faith is not “fire insurance” against some far off judgement…I have placed myself in Good Hands…“I am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him against that day.” Each moment is a chance to live in sacramental grace…

For many Friends, myself included, this Jesus is “God with us”…our “Immanuel”…He is the “True Light that enligtens every man who comes into the world.”…“The Word made flesh and dwelt among us.” That is a guiding principle of Friends…that Jesus is not gone, but among us now as Present Teacher, Guide, Priest, Minister, Comforter, Baptizer, Redeemer…and all that entails.

It’s a message for everyone…but not everyone is comfortable with the responsibility of standing naked before the Light and trusting in Him and Him alone…if water baptism and eucharistic celebrations and foot washings and any other rites and rituals bring one closer to the Eternal One…we have no problem…for us…we have found the Reality of His Presence…“Christ is present among his people to teach them himself.”

Friends believe that God is present in each of us…and each of us seeks to understand God and is led in the Light…sometimes imperfectly…

Yes, we have atheists among us…seeking to understand “that of God” in their own way…we have Buddhists as well…we even have a few Catholics…the underlying “principle” or belief is that God meets us where we are…God is ever Present among us…and each of us must respond to this Light Within. We have one another to talk to…to pray with…to worship with…we are not in this alone…we are on a Journey…a collective Journey to the Light…

There is a wide spectrum of belief among us…we could demand a set pattern of belief…we could follow an heirarchal mode and divest ourselves of the responsibility of seeking for Truth and just believe what we are told is Truth…we are individualistic to be sure…and this “individualism” is not for everyone it seems…but to us the Journey is worth it…we know Whom it is that awaits us and walks with us on this Journey…we are not alone.

 

[Publisher]

As I understand it, Catholics also believe that we are each working out our own salvation, but we believe we are doing so within the set framework of the Church. The Church has given us gifts (the sacraments, the teachings, creeds, etc) to help us in working out our salvation and we are obligated to make use of them (in the same way as one is obligated to eat in order to sustain life, etc). Whereas Quakers believe they are doing it completely independently. I’m guessing this is what you meant (though I don’t want to put words in your mouth!) but it might not be explicitly clear to non-Catholics.

So too do Friends believe we are ‘working out our salvation’ within the framework of The Church…we are members of The Church…our testimony to that is we do not call ourselves a “church”…we are a “society of believers”…a “Society of Friends”…we do not believe we do it independently…we have each other on this Journey.

We have been called “Children of the Light”…“The People of God called Quakers”…“Publishers of Truth”…“Society of Friends”. We are not alone in this…we are on a Journey together.

 

[jewells17]

Current day Friends are unified in their beleif in non-violence. They are united in their pacifism. Otherwise…they hold all kinds of different spiritual beliefs and perspectives and all are accepted. The article I mentioned before is a good example of what alot of groups do to Friends Meetings. Google…“Quakers going Pagan” and read that article. The same thing happens with anti-war people, environmental groups, new age groups…they come for one aspect of the Quaker faith without believing in the rest of the revelation Christ gave to its founder George Fox.

 

[Student09]

There is a wide spectrum of belief among us…we could demand a set pattern of belief…we could follow an heirarchal mode and divest ourselves of the responsibility of seeking for Truth and just believe what we are told is Truth…

Living according to the Catholic faith is hard. It costs. Many people have lost their friends, have found that their families no longer wish to speak to them, have left their lovers or remarriages or jobs and made many sacrifices in order to adhere to the Catholic faith, and in some parts of the world, people still die for their Catholic faith. But you think they are just divesting themselves of the responsibility of seeking for Truth.

No. Rather, some of us have sought the Truth, for years, for our whole lives, and then we found Him. And when we found Him - the Truth - we assented to His demands.

What Quakers are asking is that the Truth be something only to be sought, and never found.

 

[Publisher]

Current day Friends are unified in their beleif in non-violence. They are united in their pacifism. Otherwise…they hold all kinds of different spiritual beliefs and perspectives and all are accepted. The article I mentioned before is a good example of what alot of groups do to Friends Meetings. Google…“Quakers going Pagan” and read that article. The same thing happens with anti-war people, environmental groups, new age groups…they come for one aspect of the Quaker faith without believing in the rest of the revelation Christ gave to its founder George Fox.

From an “insider” perspective…those who claim to be “Pagan Quakers” eventually move on to pagan groups…as those of us in the Meeting seek to witness to the Light Within from a very Christian perspective. Since most Neo-pagan groups tend to rely on “ritual expression” of one sort or another…it tends to run counter to Friends belief that “rituals” and “rites” are not necessary…so “Pagan Quakers” tend to move on eventually…at least in my experience…to a more formal Pagan expresssion which includes rituals.

Those who do remain and still consider themselves “Quaker” and “Pagan” do so more of a reaction against their former Christian tradition, which may have left a “bad taste” in their mouths…among Friends they are able to explore their “call toward the Divine”…but the quiet leading of “elder Friends” eventually heals hurting hearts…it is an exercise in patience at times…it is not always easy to “speak to that of God” in those who have been hurt by those who claim to “speak for God” in other faith traditions…but when the connection is made to “that of God” with a more positive Christian emphasis…the change is amazing.

 

[brb3]

Friends believe that God is present in each of us…and each of us seeks to understand God and is led in the Light…sometimes imperfectly…

Yes, we have atheists among us…seeking to understand “that of God” in their own way…we have Buddhists as well…we even have a few Catholics…the underlying “principle” or belief is that God meets us where we are…God is ever Present among us…and each of us must respond to this Light Within. We have one another to talk to…to pray with…to worship with…we are not in this alone…we are on a Journey…a collective Journey to the Light…

There is a wide spectrum of belief among us…we could demand a set pattern of belief…we could follow an heirarchal mode and divest ourselves of the responsibility of seeking for Truth and just believe what we are told is Truth…we are individualistic to be sure…and this “individualism” is not for everyone it seems…but to us the Journey is worth it

Publisher … your group of friends is indeed ‘wide spectrum’. Like the blind leading the blind. No wonder you don’t refer to your gathering as a church. No wonder you have no creeds … it would be impossible to reach a consensus. Tradition would be hard to determine in your meetings. How can you be so sure your meetings are lead by the H.S. ? Who confirms the H.S. upon them, w/o a priest, pastor, or elder to baptize / confirm them ?

 

[jewells17]

Publisher;6461953:

Friends believe that God is present in each of us…and each of us seeks to understand God and is led in the Light…sometimes imperfectly…

Yes, we have atheists among us…seeking to understand “that of God” in their own way…we have Buddhists as well…we even have a few Catholics…the underlying “principle” or belief is that God meets us where we are…God is ever Present among us…and each of us must respond to this Light Within. We have one another to talk to…to pray with…to worship with…we are not in this alone…we are on a Journey…a collective Journey to the Light…

There is a wide spectrum of belief among us…we could demand a set pattern of belief…we could follow an heirarchal mode and divest ourselves of the responsibility of seeking for Truth and just believe what we are told is Truth…we are individualistic to be sure…and this “individualism” is not for everyone it seems…but to us the Journey is worth it

Publisher … your group of friends is indeed ‘wide spectrum’. Like the blind leading the blind. No wonder you don’t refer to your gathering as a church. No wonder you have no creeds … it would be impossible to reach a consensus. Tradition would be hard to determine in your meetings. How can you be so sure your meetings are lead by the H.S. ? Who confirms the H.S. upon them, w/o a priest, pastor, or elder to baptize / confirm them ?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Any Quakers in the hizz-ouse!?

 

[Abba]

2 Timothy 4:4
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

As I understand it, Catholics also believe that we are each working out our own salvation, but we believe we are doing so within the set framework of the Church. The Church has given us gifts (the sacraments, the teachings, creeds, etc) to help us in working out our salvation and we are obligated to make use of them (in the same way as one is obligated to eat in order to sustain life, etc). Whereas Quakers believe they are doing it completely independently. I’m guessing this is what you meant (though I don’t want to put words in your mouth!) but it might not be explicitly clear to non-Catholics.

Hello Student09,

You guessed right. :yup:

As you pointed out on an earlier post; a problem occurs with the Society of Friends and Catholics in theological discussions. Many words and phrase that are commonly used by Christians have a different meaning to a Quaker. I think that is a serious semantic problem as it causes deception.

When Christians say they are ’ working out their salvation’ there is a great difference to when a Quaker says that ‘they are working out their OWN salvation’. Christians for instance understand that Jesus is their SAVIOR and they were REDEEMED by CHRIST. It is within christian theology that a christian understands that he/she is ‘working out their own salvation’.

In Paul’s letter to the Phillipians we read: “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.” But, notice what comes directly before and after that little phrase:

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 12

13

For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

We are working out our salvation in this world of exile but as Christians and as such understand that Jesus is our SAVIOR, that God is the one that is giving us the GRACE to work out our salvation and that without God we can not save ourselves.

But, a Friends is working out his or her salvation independent of Jesus etc…

The phrase let’s say; "working out my salvation’ to a Quaker phrase ‘working out MY OWN salvation’ may sound the same but there is a tremendous difference in theology.

The Quaker content is something like this and much more, from what I gather:

Pelagianism (5th Century)

Pelagius denied that we inherit original sin from Adam’s sin in the Garden and claimed that we become sinful only through the bad example of the sinful community into which we are born. Conversely, he denied that we inherit righteousness as a result of Christ’s death on the cross and said that we become personally righteous by instruction and imitation in the Christian community, following the example of Christ. Pelagius stated that man is born morally neutral and can achieve heaven under his own powers. According to him, God’s grace is not truly necessary, but merely makes easier an otherwise difficult task.

Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century)

After Augustine refuted the teachings of Pelagius, some tried a modified version of his system. This, too, ended in heresy by claiming that humans can reach out to God under their own power, without God’s grace; that once a person has entered a state of grace, one can retain it through one’s efforts, without further grace from God; and that natural human effort alone can give one some claim to receiving grace, though not strictly merit it.

This is quoted from the article on Heresies at CAF and I would like to quote what is written about the use of confusing terminology of the following heresies:

Arianism:

Arianism (4th Century)

Arius taught that Christ was a creature made by God. By disguising his heresy using orthodox or near-orthodox terminology, he was able to sow great confusion in the Church. He was able to muster the support of many bishops, while others excommunicated him.

Catharism (11th Century)

Catharism was a complicated mix of non-Christian religions reworked with Christian terminology. The Cathars had many different sects; they had in common a teaching that the world was created by an evil deity (so matter was evil) and we must worship the good deity instead.

So, the Quakers are working out their OWN *‘salvation’ *and use the Bible and Jesus to work out their own salvation.

I’m reading and learning of the theology of the Friends. Great mythology. It would be nice to say a rosary for them and pray that they will see.

Peace,

Abba

To the Church in Laodicea
Rev 3: 14-22
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev%203:%2014-22&version=NIV

 

[Publisher]

Publisher;6461953:

Friends believe that God is present in each of us…and each of us seeks to understand God and is led in the Light…sometimes imperfectly…

Yes, we have atheists among us…seeking to understand “that of God” in their own way…we have Buddhists as well…we even have a few Catholics…the underlying “principle” or belief is that God meets us where we are…God is ever Present among us…and each of us must respond to this Light Within. We have one another to talk to…to pray with…to worship with…we are not in this alone…we are on a Journey…a collective Journey to the Light…

There is a wide spectrum of belief among us…we could demand a set pattern of belief…we could follow an heirarchal mode and divest ourselves of the responsibility of seeking for Truth and just believe what we are told is Truth…we are individualistic to be sure…and this “individualism” is not for everyone it seems…but to us the Journey is worth it

Publisher … your group of friends is indeed ‘wide spectrum’. Like the blind leading the blind. No wonder you don’t refer to your gathering as a church. No wonder you have no creeds … it would be impossible to reach a consensus. Tradition would be hard to determine in your meetings. How can you be so sure your meetings are lead by the H.S. ? Who confirms the H.S. upon them, w/o a priest, pastor, or elder to baptize / confirm them ?

"Who confirms the H.S. upon them, w/o a priest, pastor, or elder to baptize / confirm them ? "

It is Christ Himself who “confirms” us…He is Priest, Pastor and Chief Elder…it is He who baptizes us.

 

[Publisher]

For the majority of Friends, it is the Light of Christ which regenerates us…it is Christ who is the bringer of salvation…we do not “divorce” ourselves from Jesus…“He is present among His people to teach them Himself.”

Creeds and statements of faith are not Truth…they are expressions of Truth…Truth is something Inward and regenerating…Truth is lived out in the daily of life…not expounded to the smallest syllable or letter…unless Truth has expression lived out in this world…it is simply finite words.

I have been a Friend for over 30 years…I’ve seen the 'trends" come and go…but the simple message the God is an immediate Presence and accessible to all has never changed…“He is present among His people to teach us Himself.”

We do not call our Meeting houses “churches” becasue the Church are People…the Church is not brick and mortar, stone and glass, but flesh and blood people. The Church is not a peaked roof or steeple…it is a Living Temple in which God Himself resides…and we turn inward and find that Alter where we worship and commune with Him directly, without mediation of priest or minister…He is our High Priest…Chief Elder…Shepherd…we are not the “whole Church”…we are members of His Church…and the Church meets together to worship.

 

[Abba]

…each of us seeks to understand God and is led in the Light…

Yeah, but, that “Light” (as Vivaldi plays in the background) is going to one day became an all consuming fire when ‘God’ will call all his creation back to himself. OUCH!



Why believe in HELL when all will end in a GREAT INFERNO?

---

The so-called no-creed works for this sect because it makes it difficult to decipher their theology. It’s hard to pin point it all and it evolves. But, I think that we can put the evolving ideas in a spectrum and the beliefs and respond to each group.

---

Jewells17, thank you for sharing that link. In the article they say that we should NOT included Satan. WHY NOT? I once skimmed the Roman exorcism booklet (I forgot what that is called right now). Anywho, there is a prayer against sects which is understood to be the work of Satan. Why should I pretend that Satan has nothing to do with this and allow him to hide? I see his tail and tale Singing a lullaby and giving people false peace.

You noted that God gave George Fox a revelation to found this sect. I do not think God with give anyone a revelation to start a sect. I don’t think that it was with the help of God that George Fox started this sect. Do you agree?

 

[Student09]

we do not “divorce” ourselves from Jesus…“He is present among His people to teach them Himself.”

What do you mean, though, in saying that? It could mean a lot of different things. In what sense is He present? By what means and in what way does He teach them?

Creeds and statements of faith are not Truth…they are expressions of Truth…Truth is something Inward and regenerating…Truth is lived out in the daily of life…not expounded to the smallest syllable or letter…unless Truth has expression lived out in this world…it is simply finite words.

Catholics also believe that creeds are expressions of Truth. The difference is that we think that expressions of Truth in words are valuable. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Now Jesus is the Word, and is also the Way, the Truth and the Life.

I love what the Catechism says about this:

In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: "Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men."63

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:

"You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time." (St. Augustine)

…

108 the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word which is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.”

-Catechism of the Catholic Church

We do not call our Meeting houses “churches” becasue the Church are People…the Church is not brick and mortar, stone and glass, but flesh and blood people. The Church is not a peaked roof or steeple…it is a Living Temple in which God Himself resides…and we turn inward and find that Alter where we worship and commune with Him directly, without mediation of priest or minister…He is our High Priest…Chief Elder…Shepherd…we are not the “whole Church”…we are members of His Church…and the Church meets together to worship.

Of course, Catholics also believe that the Church refers to the people, not the buildings, and that Christ is our High Priest and Shepherd, who has appointed the pope as His earthly representative.

 

[jewells17]

Yeah, but, that “Light” (as Vivaldi plays in the background) is going to one day became an all consuming fire when ‘God’ will call all his creation back to himself. OUCH!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...t_of_days.jpg/220px-Blake_ancient_of_days.jpg

Why believe in HELL when all will end in a GREAT INFERNO?

---

The so-called no-creed works for this sect because it makes it difficult to decipher their theology. It’s hard to pin point it all and it evolves. But, I think that we can put the evolving ideas in a spectrum and the beliefs and respond to each group.

---

Jewells17, thank you for sharing that link. In the article they say that we should NOT included Satan. WHY NOT? I once skimmed the Roman exorcism booklet (I forgot what that is called right now). Anywho, there is a prayer against sects which is understood to be the work of Satan. Why should I pretend that Satan has nothing to do with this and allow him to hide? I see his tail and tale Singing a lullaby and giving people false peace.

You noted that God gave George Fox a revelation to found this sect. I do not think God with give anyone a revelation to start a sect. I don’t think that it was with the help of God that George Fox started this sect. Do you agree?

I am not sure what God allows. But…I see your point that George Fox could very well hear those words…“there is only one, Christ Jesus who can speak to thy condition”…and the words not be from God. However…my point back there in that post is that those who join for anti-war, environmental, new-age reasons…tend to avoid this part of what Fox taught. And as far as anyone putting down a Catholic for creeds or rituals…excuse me but alot of what publisher has said is in quotes because they are not his own thoughts or words about Quaker beliefs…but those of early Quakers. That is what our creeds are. And every First Day Friends gather and observe the ritual of sitting in the quiet to wait upon the Spirit. The Meeting is over when an Elder ritually breaks Meeting with a handshake. All I know is be careful to not put peace before truth…that goes for all of us. And we need to pray the rosary for each other…it is praying the Gospels and is so Holy.

 

[jewells17]

And anytime someone advises you against doing a prayer or devotion because it is only an empty ritual…you need to try it for yourself and judge it by it’s fruits. Jesus said to stay away from VAIN repetition…meaningless repetition. Find out for yourself and by all means pray with your heart…not in a meaningless, vain way.

 

[jewells17]

I am not sure what God allows. But…I see your point that George Fox could very well hear those words…“there is only one, Christ Jesus who can speak to thy condition”…and the words not be from God. However…my point back there in that post is that those who join for anti-war, environmental, new-age reasons…tend to avoid this part of what Fox taught. And as far as anyone putting down a Catholic for creeds or rituals…excuse me but alot of what publisher has said is in quotes because they are not his own thoughts or words about Quaker beliefs…but those of early Quakers. That is what our creeds are. And every First Day Friends gather and observe the ritual of sitting in the quiet to wait upon the Spirit. The Meeting is over when an Elder ritually breaks Meeting with a handshake. All I know is be careful to not put peace before truth…that goes for all of us. And we need to pray the rosary for each other…it is praying the Gospels and is so Holy.

One more quick thing…I won’t know the whole truth on this side of heaven. But…if I do make it over there I will be shocked to find out that anyone other than God could say the words George Fox heard. In fact I think no other could have said such a beautiful thing. But…as with any revelation…it is what we do about it that decides what direction it shall take in our lives. I think God said it and Fox responded…and I can’t judge.