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Daniel_Keeran
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Now sideline, you can still give us the list without posting the whole article.
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buffalo
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At age ten? When you left are you really sure what you had left? Now I am the skeptic.
So to continue we should query the historians. Are you a historian and have you written any works that refute the historians? I would like to read them if you have.
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Sideline
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Didn’t say I left at 10, I said I was a Catholic at 10. In other words, how hard can it be if a ten-year-old can do it?
This is just the height of hypocrisy. At age seven I was told I had reached the age of reason and could sin against God and man. I was expected to go to confession and received communion, and at age 12 I was confirmed. My bishop obviously thought I understood what I was doing. If he didn’t, he shouldn’t have confirmed me.
If you don’t think that children that young are capable of understanding the faith, perhaps you should write your bishop about your concerns.
Are you really a Catholic? Nothing you’ve posted in this thread seems to jive with Catholicism.
You’ve already stated that you refuse to acknowledge points that don’t agree with what you want them to be. I’m not debating with you anymore.
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Sideline
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No… I can’t. How would you like it if someone posted the bulk of an article you paid them to print?
And if you aren’t willing to figure it out yourself. I don’t see the point of posting it anyway. It’s simple, find things in the Bible that sound like you.
But by all means, keep asking. See where it gets you.
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buffalo
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Faith is a journey. At a young age we are taught the fundamentals as our minds can comprehend. As a Catholic we are to continuously learn and develop a deeper and greater understanding of the faith. You stopped somewhere and lost the experiential aspect.
Confirmation is a sacrament where we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
Will you accept the verdict of historians?
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Daniel_Keeran
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Why don’t you just give us say 10 examples then?
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Sideline
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Here, why don’t I do you the same favour I did Buffalo and just give your response to whatever I post?
“Sideline, you’ve completely missed the point. These verses don’t mean what you think they mean. Jesus had Credible Witnesses™ that established that he really did all of the things claimed. They didn’t pick and chose random verses, but saw that his life was a true reflection of what was written…”
Why pretend that you want to consider something when you’ve already decided it’s false beforehand? Why not just save the trouble and say, “I don’t care what you say. I’m going to believe no matter what?” As sad as that is, it’s honest.
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Daniel_Keeran
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You don’t want to give us just 10 examples? OK then. I won’t beg you.
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mich2
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I agree with most of what you wrote. For example, I have no problems in understanding the description of the orbital displacement of the celestial spheres in turns of angels moving such bodies being used in order to identify some form of divine laws governing such bodies.
However, we have certain stories which was taught, throughout the world, by all religious civlizations, which doesn’t fall in this category, such as the story of the great flood. I doubt very much that this particular story could have been distinctly invented by different tribal people across the spectrum of humanity. I cannot think otherwise but to see that such a story has a common geographical focal point, and that such a story seemed extremely important to be passed on to all generations.But why? The story of the great flood doesn’t depict something which relates an explaination concerning a philosophical question, such as who are we? Or why are we here? The story seems to relay simply an historical event which was believed to have happened.
The descendant lines seen in the Hebrew scriptures must have been implimented, not to explain a phenomenon but to relay what they claimed were historical events.
True; but it does explain why humanity is religiously oriented. It seems that our curiosity might be responsible for our being philosophers, but not necessarily religious, in such a manner as to prevent natural atheism to exist.
I respect your argument, although in my opinion, it seems to fall short in explaining why would all of humanity have found it important to hold on to particular stories such as the great flood, if such an event never happened.
Andre
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wasmit
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Yes, it is easier and more comforting to believe in god and intelligent design.
But is there any evidence to suggest that it is true?
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wasmit
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speciation of wild flowers:
“Three species of wildflowers called goatsbeards were introduced to the United States from Europe shortly after the turn of the century. Within a few decades their populations expanded and began to encounter one another in the American West. Whenever mixed populations occurred, the specied interbred (hybridizing) producing sterile hybrid offspring. Suddenly, in the late forties two new species of goatsbeard appeared near Pullman, Washington. Although the new species were similar in appearance to the hybrids, they produced fertile offspring. The evolutionary process had created a separate species that could reproduce but not mate with the goatsbeard plants from which it had evolved.”
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wasmit
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Details of Antony Flew’s changing opinion: link
Antony Flew has become mentally ill. It is a shame that he was taken advantage of by Roy Varghese, who deceptively wrote a book under Flew’s name.
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wasmit
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wasmit
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How do you know that this is a genuine fulfilled prophecy, and that the gospel writers did not fabricate the fulfilling act in order to garner more credibility for the story of jesus after his death? The gospel writers would have had a strong motivation to do so.
That is one of the major reasons for me dismissing the claim of a fulfilled prophecy.
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wasmit
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wasmit
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Specifically which serious historians agree that the gospels are true?
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Daniel_Keeran
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There are too many witnesses and too many details to have been fabricated. Also, in some cases the details of fullfilment are incidental to the narrative. Did the writers have strong motivation to fabricate? If so, they would have surely denied their claims to save their lives (and wealth) in the face of Jewish and Roman persecution. Why be a member of some hated radical sect in a sea of pagan popular belief?
The credibility and reliability of the NT writers should be questioned. Using the historical and judicial methods, one can evaluate the documents.
- Do the writers claim to be eyewitnesses of the events? Yes.
- Do the documents date from the time/place when the alleged events occured? Yes, fragments from the period have been discovered.
- What were the motivations of the writers to gain material wealth or power? No, they died as **impoverished pacifists **for their claims.
- Are there known historical inaccuracies in the documents? No, archaeology confirms historical details, e.g. Gallio inscription, Pontius Pilatus inscription, Erastus inscription, “first man” of the island inscription, Lysanius tetrarch inscription, etc.
- Are there **contemporary external sources **corroborating the historical details in the documents? Yes. In addition to #4, there are Tactitus, Josephus, Thallus, etc
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wasmit
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Shredderbeam
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- The documents were written some 20-40 years after the death of Jesus, though. They might have been well-preserved from that point onwards, certainly, but did his message survive unchanged without being written down?
- The only motivations aren’t ones for wealth and power - it’s possible that the NT writers would see faith as generally beneficial to the community.
- Tactitus was born in 56 AD, Josephus in 37 AD, and Thallus supposedly wrote his works in the mid-to-late first century.
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buffalo
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