Any word on Sacred Music from the USCCB?

[anamchara]

In the meantime, we are subject to** their sappy, nappy** tunes that celebrate the community and little else. Their hymns draw heavily on the Protestant tradition and do not resemble Catholicism in any way

First of all, this is YOUR opinion and secondly, I find this comment rather insulting. My husband has the Spirit and Song books and uses them on occasion. Some of us do like the music and don’t have paranoid issues about something being “too protestant!” just a thought here, we do actually have a few things in common with them. Imagine that! For heavens sake.

You know what? I don’t mind that you like the old traditional style, I don’t mind it myself. And that’s great for you but please stop it with the constant put downs and calling people’s Catholicism into question just because they may not agree with you. Good Lord.

This forum does have a traditional area for a reason.

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, this is YOUR opinion and secondly, I find this comment rather insulting. My husband has the Spirit and Song books and uses them on occasion. Some of us do like the music and don’t have paranoid issues about something being “too protestant!” just a thought here, we do actually have a few things in common with them. Imagine that! For heavens sake.

You know what? I don’t mind that you like the old traditional style, I don’t mind it myself. And that’s great for you but please stop it with the constant put downs and calling people’s Catholicism into question just because they may not agree with you. Good Lord.

This forum does have a traditional area for a reason.

The Spirit and Song hymnal is by far the worst of the worst of the OCP arsenal. The hymns are certainly Protestant pop music.

Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand the significance of Sacred Music. My theological point of reference still remains the same, and, I thank God that he was elected Pope in 2005.

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

Most, if not all, of the songs in Spirit and Song fall under that category. Just look at the kind of music it has and the lyrics.

Furthermore, Pope Benedict also makes some very interesting points that I submit for your consideration:

Words are superseded, but not the Word, the Logos. This is the second, deeper sense in which liturgical music is related to logos. The Church’s Tradition has this in mind when it talks about the sober inebriation caused in us by the Holy Spirit. There is always an ultimate sobriety, a deeper rationality, resisting any decline into irrationality and immoderation.

We can see what this means in practice if we look at the history of music. The writings of Plato and Aristotle on music show that the Greek world in their time was faced with a choice between two kinds of worship, two different images of God and man. Now what this choice came down to concretely was a choice between two fundamental types of music.

On the one hand, there is the music that Plato ascribes, in line with mythology, to Apollo, the god of light and reason. This is the music that draws senses into spirit and so brings man to wholeness. It does not abolish the senses, but inserts them into the unity of this creature that is man. It elevates the spirit precisely by wedding it to the senses, and it elevates the senses by uniting them with the spirit. Thus this kind of music is an expression of man’s special place in the general structure of being. But then there is the music that Plato ascribes to Marsyas, which we might describe, in terms of cultic history, as “Dionysian”. It drags man into the intoxication of the senses, crushes rationality, and subjects the spirit to the senses. The way Plato (and more moderately, Aristotle) allots instruments and keys to one or other of these two kinds of music is now obsolete and may in many respects surprise us. But the Apollonian/Dionysian alternative runs through the whole history of religion and confronts us again today. Not every kind of music can have a place in Christian worship. It has its standards, and that standard is the Logos. If we want to know whom we are dealing with, the Holy Spirit or the unholy spirit, we have to remember that it is the Holy Spirit who moves us to say, “Jesus is Lord” (I Cor 12:3). The Holy Spirit leads us to the Logos, and He leads us to a music that serves the Logos as a sign of the sursum corda, the lifting up of the human heart. Does it integrate man by drawing him to what is above, or does it cause his disintegration into formless intoxication or mere sensuality? That is the criterion for a music in harmony with logos, a form of that logike latreia (reasonable, logos-worthy worship) of which we spoke in the first part of this book.

There is not any sobriety in Spirit and Song. Many of these songs come from the Worship Anthems that Time Life Music plugs on TV every day. This is not liturgical music.

 

[benedictgal]

You know what? I don’t mind that you like the old traditional style, I don’t mind it myself. And that’s great for you but please stop it with the constant put downs and calling people’s Catholicism into question just because they may not agree with you. Good Lord.

This forum does have a traditional area for a reason.

One last point. Many people have stated several things that are questionable regarding the Church. Evidently there is a lot of serious misunderstanding about Liturgy, much less doctrine and sound Catholic theology. Our music is supposed to reflect solid Catholic dogma and sound liturgical theology. Praise music doesn’t cut it. The Church has guidelines and standards. We are not about spiritual relativism when it comes to sacred Music. “One song is not as good as another,” writes Pope Benedict.

I am afraid that publishing houses like OCP are part of that dicatorship of relativism that Joseph Ratzinger warned about when preached the homily before the conclave that elected him Pope.

How many winds of doctrine we have known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves * thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and so forth. Every day new sects are created and what Saint Paul says about human trickery comes true, with cunning which tries to draw those into error (cf Eph 4, 14). Having a clear faith, based on the Creed of the Church, is often labeled today as a fundamentalism. Whereas, relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and “swept along by every wind of teaching”, looks like the only attitude (acceptable) to today’s standards. We are moving towards a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as certain and which has as its highest goal one’s own ego and one’s own desires

OCP’s Spanish catalogue has hymns that reek of liberation theology (Hombres/Pueblos Nuevos). This particular hymn does not even mention God anywhere in its lyrics. The English hymns’ theological content is questionable, too. Come to the Feast is more a celebratory song about ourselves than it is about the Lord. Spirit and Song’s catalogue includes (as I have noted earlier), nearly all of those Songs of Worship Protestant hits that are touted on late night TV. These are not suitable for Sacred, Liturgical Music. There are standards that the Church sets out for her Sacred liturgical music. OCP is not following them.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

To blame OCP is to scapegoat them and skirt the real issue.

I’m no fan of OCP; I canceled their program in the last parish I was at. But they do have some good pieces in their repertoire.

They are a business; Even as a non-profit, they still cater to the masses. The root of the issue is what people are demanding. And today, they are demanding more garbage music.

 

[benedictgal]

To blame OCP is to scapegoat them and skirt the real issue.

I’m no fan of OCP; I canceled their program in the last parish I was at. But they do have some good pieces in their repertoire.

They are a business; Even as a non-profit, they still cater to the masses. The root of the issue is what people are demanding. And today, they are demanding more garbage music.

They cater to them because they are very adept at marketing a complete package to parish who may not afford to purchase quality hymnals. They offer the convenience of missalettes and cheap hymnals (English and Spanish) together. Once they have you hooked, then they start sending you stuff. It’s like cooking a lobster. You introduce the poor thing to warm water, and then, as it starts getting comfortable, you turn up the heat until the little guy doesn’t realize that he’s being boiled to death. No, I don’t cook but that’s how I understand the process to be.

By the way, it’s a good thing I don’t cook. Out of charity for my father, we are going to Golden Corral after Mass for Thanksgiving dinner. And, even though you and I have crossed swords in another thread, Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[anamchara]

The Spirit and Song hymnal is by far the worst of the worst of the OCP arsenal.

Again, your opinion. And again a rather insulting one at that. No where does it say any songs from that book are strickly forbidden to be used.

Unfortunately, you do not seem to understand the significance of Sacred Music

 

[anamchara]

I am afraid that publishing houses like OCP are part of that dicatorship of relativism that Joseph Ratzinger warned about when preached the homily before the conclave that elected him Pope.

 

[Strummer]

We are not about spiritual relativism when it comes to sacred Music. “One song is not as good as another,” writes Pope Benedict.

I’ve noticed that you often pull out the bromide but somewhat out of context, no? Let’s look at the WHOLE quote rather than just the cherry you picked…

In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration.

Now we see that the “one song” reference seems directed to those from our “heritage” which “must not be lost”. OR, maybe it is just a general caution that there’s drek from throughout the ages and will continue to be. No argument there. Going on, we get to the more vague “generic improvisation” and “musical genres which fail to respect…” All in all very subjective and would differ from diocese to diocese. All of this puts your knee-jerk bumper sticker “one song…blah blah blah” into it’s properly vague context. It does not hold water to support your argument in and of itself. Furthermore, your linking it to the “dictatorship of spiritual relativism” is a weak and soggy straw man argument at best.

Twisting one’s self into pretzle-like contortions in order to justify a personal preference is hardly a worthy exercise. Can we not be satisfied that some are fed by the music you hear and others are fed by the music they hear and the Church embraces us all?

 

[peary]

I just called EWTN to see if the bishops have done anything. I was told that they made statements on abortion, guidelines for religious education, Greek Orthodox relations and election time. However, they’ve heard nothing yet. Believe it or not, someone in their liturgy department will call me as soon as they’ve heard something. .

Don’t hold your breath LOL

 

[Strummer]

Come to the Feast is more a celebratory song about ourselves than it is about the Lord.

You’ll forgive me if I don’t just take your word for it and examine the lyrics for myself.

Come to the table, come to the feast.
Taste of the goodness; drink of his peace.
He has been broken that all may receive.
Come, come to the feast.

1. Blessed and broken for all to see,
   this bread is salvation for all who believe.
   This is his body; take and eat,
   and come, come to the feast.
2. Here at this altar the poor shall receive.
   The hungry are fed now and all are at peace.
   The meek and the humble, all shall eat,
   so come, come to the feast.

Sorry, I don’t see it. “We” are not the subject of the lyric except obliquely at the second verse as the “poor”, the “hungry” and the “meek” and each of them in the context of our relationship with God. And before you try to “correct” me by citing the “all” in verse one, you’ll note that the subject of that verse is the Eucharist, not us.

Additionally, while Spirit&Song is chock-a-block full of what some geezers might consider pop-ish tunes (not necessarily a bad thing depending upon the parish and each particular Mass) it also has many sober and spiritually reflective songs as well. To say that it lacks sobriety condemns St. Francis and the “Hail Mary” with that same broad brush.

Analyzing your position under the cold light of reason finds your argument lacking. It is difficult to conclude anything other than you have a marked bias against OCP and that clouds your reasoning.

 

[lak611]

Sorry, I don’t see it. “We” are not the subject of the lyric except obliquely at the second verse as the “poor”, the “hungry” and the “meek” and each of them in the context of our relationship with God. And before you try to “correct” me by citing the “all” in verse one, you’ll note that the subject of that verse is the Eucharist, not us.

The Eucharist is not just a meal. This song sounds Protestant.

 

[Strummer]

The Eucharist is not just a meal. This song sounds Protestant.

Indeed! And neither is a “feast” just a meal. What is it saying when simple bread is to be considered a “feast”? This is hardly “Protestant” in that it is proclaiming Our Lord in that “feast” of bread, broken for us.

 

[lak611]

Indeed! And neither is a “feast” just a meal. What is it saying when simple bread is to be considered a “feast”? This is hardly “Protestant” in that it is proclaiming Our Lord in that “feast” of bread, broken for us.

But we are not eating something from a table. We are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord in the Sacrifice of the altar.

 

[Strummer]

But we are not eating something from a table. We are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord in the Sacrifice of the altar.

You’re kidding, right? I mean a reference to “table” makes it “Protestant” even though there IS a reference to altar as well? Even though the Real Presence is made clear, that reference makes it “Protestant”?!
:ehh: :dts:

 

[peary]

Although I don’t agree with her charaterization of my position, it is not an unfair shot given our past conversations.

As I am sure you know by now, I take the Mass very seriously and it is a very important issue. The liturgical form of the Mass is also a valid issue, although not as important.

I would hope that we would agree that the following (which are not in any particular order) are each more important than whether “Lord of the Dance” is used at Mass:

Vocations and the priest shortage
The loss of parishoners to evangelical sects
The rising influence of Mormonism and their proselytizing among Catholics
Proper role of the church in politics
The rise of young earth creationism in american politics and religion and its effect on the faith
The influence of prominent evangelicals on catholics, including the rise in “catholic fundamentalists”
Effectively handling the threat of schism from traditionalists and providing pastoral space for them in the Church
Effectively handling the threat of schism from progressives and providing pastoral space for them in the Church
Protecting and enhancing the Church’s message in this age of modern communications.
Reversing the increasing public impression that the Church is bigotted, mean spirited, or hopelessly out of date, and dealing with the decline in faith that impression causes.
Properly ministering to the many american catholics that struggle with the Church’s teachings on sex and sexuality
Discussing and, if necessary, clarifying the recent directions on homosexually oriented candidates for priesthood.
Dealing with and, if possible, reversing the devastating drop in religious vocations of women
Handling the current crisis in care for elderly nuns whose orders cannot take care of them.
Sex abuse scandel
The financial fallout of the sex scandels
The proper role of the laity in managing parish and diocean affairs.

That is a few off the top of my head. Not all of the above are giant or imminent crises, but some of them are. Maybe a few drop down to be no more important than the “Lord of the Dance”, but not many. So I hope the bishops get to talking about musical styles and preferences, because I assume that means that the important issues have been dealt with.

**When it comes to worship and people desiring something inspiring and beautiful during Mass, your list misses the WHOLE POINT and is irrelevent. To come together badly is no better than attending a football game or rock concert. To worship God in community with beauty and awe permeating ALL of your senses is in itself something much higher. We need to give the best we can, and we have an obligation to bring the best we can into worship - which should uplift us and surround us with HEAVEN ON EARTH. That is why the eastern Church calls the Mass the DIVINE LITURGY. And that is why beautiful houses of worship inspire devotion. Architects and artists in both the Middle and Renaissance ages understood this concept. Although there is a myriad of problems here on earth, as St. Paul says, our home is elsewhere.

People cannot love what they do not know. Bishop Sheen once said that people are like pigs - if you let them stay in the mud they will. However, once you wash and clean them up they become a better lot. I resent being thrown into liturgical mud. I want something better than what I have been getting from my parish.**

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

But we are not eating something from a table. We are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord in the Sacrifice of the altar.

It’s not either/or. It’s both/and. That’s one of the great aspects of the mystery that we call Eucharist. We receive from both table and altar. It is both sacrifice and meal.

 

[VociMike]

To blame OCP is to scapegoat them and skirt the real issue.

I’m no fan of OCP; I canceled their program in the last parish I was at. But they do have some good pieces in their repertoire.

They are a business; Even as a non-profit, they still cater to the masses. The root of the issue is what people are demanding. And today, they are demanding more garbage music.

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said here. But let’s remember who it is who’s doing the demanding. It’s not the people in the pews, not directly anyway. They don’t place the orders for hymnals and missalettes. They don’t choose the music for a Mass. So it comes down not to the people but to their leaders. The pastor. The head of music ministry. And perhaps some parish liturgy committee. First they need to understand the mind of the Church in the matter of sacred music. Then they need to submit their own will to that of the Church. And finally they need to have the gumption to tell those in the pews who are demanding bad music that they can’t have it. That’s a simple lesson that every parent learns early on.

To give people bad music, or bad liturgy of any kind, is vastly unpastoral and uncharitable. It’s like parents letting their kids eat ice cream and play with matches all day.

 

[JButky]

The form of worship means something, but the meaning of the worship trumps the form. The form can change and has changed many times in the history of the Church. The meaning that stands behind the form and informs the form does not change. Our dispute has always been that I do not care what form is used, but only that true worship is captured in it. You seem to contend that there is only one narrow form that is capable of expressing true worship. If this is true, then the vast majority of Catholics throughout all of history have done it wrong. There have been many forms. They are several approved forms of liturgy in use now, today.

But this line of reasoning leads to some frightening conclusions. The Church determines the form of the true Worship because the Mass is not a private affair. It is the official public worship of the Church. And as Pope St. Celestine stated in the 5th century “Legem credendi statuit lex orandi.” which became as we more commonly know - lex orandi, lex credendi. The manner of prayer shows what we believe.

To say that the form does not matter, and that only true worship itself in any form is all that is needed gives legitimacy to the services of our separated Protestant brethren. The form does matter and that is why the Church provides it.

The Music issue is merely a symptom of the larger problem. Namely, the hierarchy is not unified in providing the form for us. We are adrift and filling in the forms at the whim of whatever Bishop, Pastor, or whomever, has the local authority to make it what they want. And we wonder why so many catholics are falling to other denominations or don’t know their faith. And there are reams of studies that demonstrate this has happened and continues to happen. That is the root problem. The music issue is just another symptom.

Until they return to a episcopal collegiality, we will suffer through this. Diversity is of no use unless it is couched in unity. When there is no authoritative unifying force, diversity is destructive to anything’s purpose and intent. Diversity becomes self serving for it’s own sake since it is separated from its purposeful intent.

Joe B

 

[peary]

You’ll forgive me if I don’t just take your word for it and examine the lyrics for myself.

Sorry, I don’t see it. “We” are not the subject of the lyric except obliquely at the second verse as the “poor”, the “hungry” and the “meek” and each of them in the context of our relationship with God. And before you try to “correct” me by citing the “all” in verse one, you’ll note that the subject of that verse is the Eucharist, not us.

Additionally, while Spirit&Song is chock-a-block full of what some geezers might consider pop-ish tunes (not necessarily a bad thing depending upon the parish and each particular Mass) it also has many sober and spiritually reflective songs as well. To say that it lacks sobriety condemns St. Francis and the “Hail Mary” with that same broad brush.

Analyzing your position under the cold light of reason finds your argument lacking. It is difficult to conclude anything other than you have a marked bias against OCP and that clouds your reasoning.

It is of MY opinion that liturgical songs during Mass need to have lyrics that ADDRESS GOD IN THEH FIRST PERSON rather than ABOUT Him. Most songs seem to shun an actual relationship with God. We sing ABOUT Him, usually in the 3rd person but we do not, it seems, sing TO Him. For me, any song which does not address the Lord DIRECTLY or which is not reflective of whatever part of the Liturgy we are doing AT A SPECIFIC TIME AND MOMENT has no place in the Liturgy.

 

[TMC]

But this line of reasoning leads to some frightening conclusions. The Church determines the form of the true Worship because the Mass is not a private affair. It is the official public worship of the Church. And as Pope St. Celestine stated in the 5th century “Legem credendi statuit lex orandi.” which became as we more commonly know - lex orandi, lex credendi. The manner of prayer shows what we believe.

To say that the form does not matter, and that only true worship itself in any form is all that is needed gives legitimacy to the services of our separated Protestant brethren. The form does matter and that is why the Church provides it.

The Music issue is merely a symptom of the larger problem. Namely, the hierarchy is not unified in providing the form for us. We are adrift and filling in the forms at the whim of whatever Bishop, Pastor, or whomever, has the local authority to make it what they want. And we wonder why so many catholics are falling to other denominations or don’t know their faith. And there are reams of studies that demonstrate this has happened and continues to happen. That is the root problem. The music issue is just another symptom.

Until they return to a episcopal collegiality, we will suffer through this. Diversity is of no use unless it is couched in unity. When there is no authoritative unifying force, diversity is destructive to anything’s purpose and intent. Diversity becomes self serving for it’s own sake since it is separated from its purposeful intent.

Joe B

Who is asking for an unapproved form? The issue is that apparently some feel they are in a better place than the Church to judge what should be approved.

I can’t agree that the hierarchy is not unified in this. The lack of unity that I have seen comes mostly from lay folks that don’t like the decisions made by their bishops.