Any young earth creationists out there?

  • Thread starter Thread starter semper_catholicus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
(continued)

Also, the NABRE translation and interpretation of Gen. 1: 1-3 within the context of the rest of the creation narrative of Genesis 1-2:3 can hardly be said I believe to make any sense. For example, v.2 says ‘and darkness was upon/over the face of the deep.’ Where is this ‘darkness over the face of the deep’ if not in the heavens of verse 1? Verse 3 continues and says:

‘And God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.’

How can you have light/darkness, day/night, ‘one day’ without the heavens? If we follow the NAB/NABRE interpretation, the heavens aren’t made until day 2 in the making of the firmament separating the waters from the waters in which case it follows that we now have the light/darkness. day/night, a second day, above the visible heavens, the firmament, in an apparently another heaven of sorts uncreated by God. I don’t see how this is going to make any sense to the simple Israelite folk who were the immediate audience of Moses’ creation narrative of Genesis 1-2:3 or even to Moses, the traditional believed author of Genesis of whom it is written ‘The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as one speaks to a friend’ (Exodus 33:11) or to an inspired sacred redactor of Genesis 1, a master theologian.

Accordingly, the traditional rendering of Gen. 1:1 ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth’, God’s first creative act, makes much more sense with what follows not only with verse 2 which is a description of the state of the heavens and the earth after this first creative act, namely, the ‘the earth was without form and void’ and ‘darkness was upon/over the face of the deep,’ that is, there was only darkness in the heavens over the waters which covered the earth. Subsequently, God’s next creative act pertains to giving further formation to the heavens, namely, the creation of light and in which He divides the light from the darkness and ‘God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day’(verse 5).

The ‘one day’ of v. 5 is also mistranslated by the NAB/NABRE and the NRSV as ‘the first day.’ The hebrew text has neither the definite article ‘the’ or the ordinal number ‘first’ but simply the cardinal number ‘one’ with ‘yom’ day. Neither in the hebrew text of the Old Testament from days 2-5 is there the definite article ‘the’ as found in the NAB/NABRE and NRSV, but the indefinite article ‘a,’ i.e., ‘a second day,’ a third day,’ and so on. Only the sixth and seventh days in the hebrew text have the definite article ‘the’. The syntax used by the sacred writer concerning the ‘days’ of Genesis is all significant and many commentaries/interpretations of this use by the inspired sacred writer have been written concerning just this.
 
Last edited:
(continued)

In conclusion, translations of Genesis 1-2:3 such as that from the NAB/NABRE and the NRSV I believe are what are called something like ‘dynamic equivalence’ and it is heavily translated and interpreted according non-Israelite/Mosaic ancient cultural cosmologies/mythologies and stressing the ‘human element’ of the sacred writings to an almost or complete elimination of the divine element, namely, God who is the principle author of the Bible. Much better translations of the Bible use a more ‘literal’ or word for word translation of the ancient texts such as the RSV-CE which is definitely better but not perfect. When reading the Bible, I personally don’t want to read somebody else’s interpretation of it which is found more in the ‘dynamic equivalence’ translations which could be erroneous. The ‘when/then’ construction of Gen. 1: 1-3 found in the NAB/NABRE and the NRSV I believe to be erroneous and especially as this construction is interpreted in the footnotes in the NABRE, i.e., a pre-creation state of the world in vv. 1-2 followed by God’s first creative act in v. 3, the creation of light.
 
Last edited:
It is written as history and always interpreted that way.
It actually isn’t. Read Scott Hahn – who knows Hebrew far better than you or I do. He explains it very well: this is an epic poem.
Nope - There are several other passages that confirm Adam was specially created body and soul together at the beginning.
OK. Cite them, please?
As I mentioned in the last paragraph, there is not a text in the entire Bible from any sacred writer who understood Gen. 1: 1-2 in such a ‘pre-creation’ fashion as if the heavens, earth, waters, darkness, the ‘mighty wind’ translation of the NAB/NABRE for ‘Spirit of God’ are not creations and works of God.
Right. 👍

So, the explanation “oh, they were already there for billions of years before God started six-day creation!” just doesn’t hold up…
 
40.png
Richca:
As I mentioned in the last paragraph, there is not a text in the entire Bible from any sacred writer who understood Gen. 1: 1-2 in such a ‘pre-creation’ fashion as if the heavens, earth, waters, darkness, the ‘mighty wind’ translation of the NAB/NABRE for ‘Spirit of God’ are not creations and works of God.
Right. 👍

So, the explanation “oh, they were already there for billions of years before God started six-day creation!” just doesn’t hold up…
No, I wasn’t commenting or made any reference to what Glark said.
 
40.png
Glark:
The geneaologies in Genesis and other parts of the Bible are also problematic for evolution, I think.
The genealogies in the Gospels skip a few generations. Might these be the same?
I have heard a few different opinions on evolution. A priest I know believes that the story of Adam and Eve is literal, and after the fall evolution bagan. Another opinion, a more common one and the one I side with, is this: the Bible is not a science book. The creation story in Genesis is a figurative account that was put out to contradict the mythical creation stories that many people ay the time believed. It is to show the fall of man. God is outside time, so he could take as long as he wanted to get to that point.
I would agree that the creation narrative of Genesis 1-2:3 is not about how things work such as our bodies or plants which is the subject of a science book, but rather I believe it is about the origins/genesis of the manifold variety of creatures from God’s supernatural creative activity and work which pertains to sacred theology and not to a natural science book.

Thus, the first article of the profession of faith we recite at Mass every Sunday: I believe in God the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in the Apostles Creed: I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth…

I would agree that the days of Genesis need not be understood solely as six or seven 24 hour days. I believe they actually contain two meanings at the same time, namely, six 24 hour work days with the Sabbath rest on the seventh imitable my human beings, and also six indefinite time or work periods or God-days as it were culminating in the creation of the first couple, Adam and Eve, upon which God rests on the seventh day having completed the work of creation in its first institution but which he always administers or governs by his providence.
 
Last edited:
OK, then: so, if dating techniques show the earth as 4.5 billion years old and the oldest fossils are in rock dating to 3.5 billion years old ('cause, after all, the earth had already been created by then, right?), then how are we to explain the existence of life that’s 3.4 billion years older than your 6,000-10,000 year old date?
Scientists have to believe life on earth is billions of years old because that’s what their belief system - evolution - demands. The belief comes first, then the “evidence” follows - that’s why it’s called psuedo-science.

Furthermore, I believe the Scriptures allow for a creation that existed before the “six days” creation (ie, between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2). This earlier creation may have been destoyed as a result of the fall of the angels (notice the similarity between the state of the earth in Genesis 1:2 and the state of the earth after Noah’s flood).
 
Last edited:
Scientists have to believe life on earth is billions of years old because that’s what their belief system - evolution - demands. The belief comes first, then the “evidence” follows - that’s why it’s called psuedo-science.
You’re making up stories now. 😉

Scientists conclude that life on earth is billions of years old because that’s what the data tells them.

Your argument is dangerous to your project, though: couldn’t I just as easily claim that “for ID proponents, the belief comes first, then the ‘evidence’ follows – that’s why ID is called pseudo-science”…? 🤔
 
Your argument is dangerous to your project, though: couldn’t I just as easily claim that “for ID proponents, the belief comes first, then the ‘evidence’ follows – that’s why ID is called pseudo-science”…? 🤔
Well, you hit the nub of the argument here, Gorgias. Biblical literalism demands that belief is paramount, and that where science and belief appear to conflict, it is the science that must be discarded. Theistic evolution demands that science and belief are completely coherent, but that if science demonstrates something to the satisfaction of the ‘consensus’ (and it comes as a shock to many to realise that, yes, scientific knowledge is indeed a consensus, not necessarily an objective truth), then faith must be reinterpreted to maintain coherence.

So yes, you may indeed claim that ““for ID proponents, the belief comes first, then the ‘evidence’ follows”, as that is the entire and only basis for Creationism.

What makes Creationists so obdurate, of course, is that in attempting to reject science, (“You can’t prove it” “You don’t have enough evidence” “History isn’t Science” and all the rest) all they are doing is putting off for a few more years the inevitability of the collapse of their argument. Poor things.
 
After reading Leisola and Witt’s book, it is clear that a paradigm shift is needed in order to explain the origin and diversity of life, from chemical and Darwinian evolution towards a design explanation. This raises the question of whether the research community is willing to follow the evidence and allow such a shift to take place. If not, there is a great risk that the judgement of future generations will be hard. However, such a change will not come easily, since ultimately our worldview is at stake. – Ola Hössjer, Professor of Mathematical Statistics at Stockholm University

And there you have it…
 
The data they like. The other data, they say, it is wrong and discard it.
Contrary data is considered “no data” and is therefore ignored. You see the same bias when it comes to Climate Change science. Some folks are so naïve as to believe that all scientists are angels of honesty and are incapable of fraud.
 
Every now and again, a sliver of truth manages to get through the cult’s totalitarian filter system into the outside world … reminds of when all those dopey, gullible communists in the West believed the Soviet propaganda about their “Workers’ Paradise”. The lies and fraud were eventually exposed.
 
Last edited:
Man prefers his ways and his knowledge and ignores the Word of God to his detriment. Fortunately, not all men fall for the half-truths, deceptions and the desire, of some, to replace God with so-called science, especially in this case.

“Man is the measure of all things.” “A statement by the ancient Greek philosopher Protagoras. It is usually interpreted to mean that the individual human being, rather than a god or an unchanging moral law, is the ultimate source of value.”
 
Last edited:
The data they like. The other data, they say, it is wrong and discard it.
Isn’t that within the competence of science, though – to evaluate claims of empirical evidence on their own merits and decide which are reasonable and which are not?

I’m thinking of the “spontaneous generation” concept of a couple hundred years ago: when scientists realized that their interpretation of the ‘data’ of spontaneous generation of flies was mistaken, they rejected that ‘data’ and went with an explanation that more accurately modeled the physical systems under observation. That, after all, is precisely what scientists do – and it’s what they’re supposed to do!

On the other hand, if proponents of ID reject empirical data that demonstrates a billions-of-years-old earth based foundationally on their theological principles, then that’s precisely what scientists aren’t supposed to do! 🤔
Theistic evolution demands that science and belief are completely coherent, but that if science demonstrates something to the satisfaction of the ‘consensus’ (and it comes as a shock to many to realise that, yes, scientific knowledge is indeed a consensus, not necessarily an objective truth), then faith must be reinterpreted to maintain coherence.
Yes, with the following modification: it’s not that science and theology are ‘coherent’, so to speak… it’s that they’re dealing in mutually exclusive domains. So, science doesn’t make theological claims, and theology doesn’t make scientific claims. Therefore, when science comes up with new theories to meet new discoveries, theology is not affected.
 
Last edited:
Your argument is dangerous to your project, though: couldn’t I just as easily claim that “for ID proponents, the belief comes first, then the ‘evidence’ follows
It’s not dangerous, that’s the whole goal, to try and put ID on the same level as evolution without having to do all that pesky ‘work’ to actually find and present evidence.
 
Just for fun, suppose tomorrow a large number of scientists concluded life does require a designer. What do you think they’d conclude about that designer based on the evidence? Do you think they’d conclude the design took place in 6 days? What evidence would suggest that?

That only one designer was present? Why not 2 or 200 or 2 million?

That the design was ‘perfect’? Doesn’t seem to stand up given the number of iterations life seems to have gone through.

To the degree that physical evidence supports ID it would seem to support a very fallible trial-and-error designer or designers who take a very long time to learn from their mistakes, their end product being quite prone to breakdowns and needing frequent maintenance.
 
40.png
Gorgias:
Your argument is dangerous to your project, though: couldn’t I just as easily claim that “for ID proponents, the belief comes first, then the ‘evidence’ follows
It’s not dangerous, that’s the whole goal, to try and put ID on the same level as evolution without having to do all that pesky ‘work’ to actually find and present evidence.
No, it’s more like all the Glory they get when they present their new fascinating evolutionary findings to the world.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top