M
MarysGirls
Guest
A good book to read on this topic is Prophet by Frank Peretti. It’s a fictional book, but it offers alot of insight on what really happens in an abortion.
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J
JimG
Guest
Yes, they should all see a sonogram of their child and also be given information as to its current stage of development. Such laws have been proposed by some who are pro-life but it is very hard to get them passed, as the pro-abortion lobby fights them tooth and nail. The mom also ought to be advised that her child is a genetically distinct individual, and be notified of agencies-and there are many–who are willing to help her with pregnancy, childbirth, and adoption.I am for showing all women their unborn child with a sonogram so hopefully they have some insight into their new and great world of having a child.
Revert TSIEG
O
OKCatholic
Guest
As Catholics we are called to engage the world and to evangelize the truth. This idea that we can have our own beliefs but should hide in the shadows when these issues come up in the secular world is simply wrong. Morality can and is legislated. In my state, liquor stores must close at 9 pm and cannot be open for business on Sundays. A child must have parental consent to have a body piercing or to receive a baby aspirin at school, but for some reason many people advocate for underage girls to be able to have abortions (a potentially fatal procedure) without parental consent. The Church wants and Christ demands that we be Catholic in every aspect of our lives. For some reason people become embarrassed or even ashamed when this means taking a clear and moral stance on an issue.
Evil often comes in the guise of good intentions and tolerance. Evil especially flourishes in the so called “grey” areas of controversies. I suppose it’s the proliferation of moral relativism in our society that causes many people to cower in the middle of the road instead of making a stand for what is right.
Like it or not, good and evil still exist. The question is, which side are you on?
Evil often comes in the guise of good intentions and tolerance. Evil especially flourishes in the so called “grey” areas of controversies. I suppose it’s the proliferation of moral relativism in our society that causes many people to cower in the middle of the road instead of making a stand for what is right.
Like it or not, good and evil still exist. The question is, which side are you on?
R
royal_archer
Guest
We could also fight for a law that grants the father the right to say good bye to the child about to be killed or who is in dire straights due to a difficult pregnancy. The law should protect the father’s right to have a priest come in and give last rights or annointing of the sick saccrements to the child who is about to die.
J
JimG
Guest
It seems to me that if the father wishes to raise the child or to put it up for adoption, his position should also be considered.We could also fight for a law that grants the father the right to say good bye to the child about to be killed or who is in dire straights due to a difficult pregnancy. The law should protect the father’s right to have a priest come in and give last rights or annointing of the sick saccrements to the child who is about to die.
R
Revert_TSIEG
Guest
First and foremost, there are too many laws in this country… living overseas for several years, you don’t see signs stating common stuff. For example, I was having a surgery in Lubbock, TX at Tech, and was asked by a Brit “why are there signs all over the roads saying do not drink and drive, don’t Americans know not to drink and drive?” I answered, because we as Americans will argue and sue if we have to in order to get the point across that the facts were not in our faces… that is our society. Meaning, that we will say I did not know, or there was not sign, so drinking and driving must be legal.As Catholics we are called to engage the world and to evangelize the truth. This idea that we can have our own beliefs but should hide in the shadows when these issues come up in the secular world is simply wrong. Morality can and is legislated. In my state, liquor stores must close at 9 pm and cannot be open for business on Sundays. A child must have parental consent to have a body piercing or to receive a baby aspirin at school, but for some reason many people advocate for underage girls to be able to have abortions (a potentially fatal procedure) without parental consent. The Church wants and Christ demands that we be Catholic in every aspect of our lives. For some reason people become embarrassed or even ashamed when this means taking a clear and moral stance on an issue.
Evil often comes in the guise of good intentions and tolerance. Evil especially flourishes in the so called “grey” areas of controversies. I suppose it’s the proliferation of moral relativism in our society that causes many people to cower in the middle of the road instead of making a stand for what is right.
Like it or not, good and evil still exist. The question is, which side are you on?
You may ask, what does this have to do with pro-choice/pro-life…well laws!! Most conservatives believe in less regulation, less legal and national control. Why must THIS issue be forced in law. Jesus, as far as I know, did not pushed for laws! Yes, he spoke of the moral code of God, but he did not say to get legislation out for prohibitions. Jesus said to love, not to hate. What kind of Catholics are we pushing this kind of hate, and it is hate.
I know abortions are wrong, and I hope all of you reading this feel the same. My questions are, why do we know it is wrong, but others think that it is not wrong. I don’t think anyone, regardless of political or religious preference, think abortions are ok, many just do not want it to be illegal by legal means. I believe, as stated on previous posts, that we need to SHOW, not TELL these women the affects of their decisions.
I am all for pushing for legislation of showing sonograms, telling the father, and in underage situations, telling the parents. I will vote on all these right now. But overturning Rowe v. Wade is not feasible… it is like telling my son to hit a home run out of Yankee stadium off a 100MPH pitch and he is almost 5, not going to happen Be realist in your/our goals and take small steps, not go straight for the the end result. It is what happened in all revolutions, look at the civil rights movements in the US. It took small, all-be-it, loud steps.
I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion as some like to title it. I am open minded, and I have not yet seen an argument that states we should make decisions for others to change my mind to pro-life. Most of the pro-lifers I have spoken to are too close minded and condescending that I shut down after less that a min. I hope the responses trying to sway me are not condescending and have an open minded nature to them so as to be not augmentative in nature.
Revert TSIEG
O
OKCatholic
Guest
I really resent you referring to Catholics who advocate the defense of life as “pushing hate.” It seems strangely ironic that you would describe yourself as so liberally progressive and tolerant, and yet you show so little respect to people who differ with you on this issue. It reeks of hubris and is not very becoming of you. But, rest assured I am not here to try to sway your opinion. If you are at all familiar with the specifics of the abortion debate and still consider yourself pro-choice, no words of mine will change your “open” mind.
You may think there are too many laws in this country. I would agree with you. But, you fail to realize that some laws are necessary for the defense of the dignity and rights of human beings. You cannot deny that the Civil Rights Act imposed too much on us as citizens. We, as Catholics, are called to live our faith fully and this includes in the public square. As such, we have a duty to advocate and petition our government for the protection and dignity of all people, born and unborn. The Constitution of the United States gives us that freedom and I, for one, will continue to exercise that freedom.
Regardless of what you think, the pro-abortion lobby does not view the procedure as some sort of unfortunate wrongdoing. They see it as a good and positive act that liberates women and reduces the number of “unwanted” children on this earth. As much as you would like to think you are some sort of enlightened outside observer to the abortion debate, it is my obligation to inform you of the perilousness of this sentiment. As the great thinker G.K. Chesterton said, “Unless a man becomes the enemy of sin, he will not even become it’s slave, but rather it’s champion.”
And if you still think that we Catholics are involved in pushing hate, then perhaps you should be reminded of what Bishop Thomas J. Olmstead said in his work, “Catholics in the Public Square.”
**• How do you respond to statements that Catholics should not impose their religious views upon others?
**
*Some Catholics and other believers have been frightened into silence and even confused by charges that they are imposing their morality on others. It is contended that a person’s faith should have no impact on his or her public life. This leads the infamous “I am a Catholic but….” syndrome! Of course, if one’s faith does not impact on one’s whole life, including one’s political and social responsibilities, then it is not authentic faith; it is a sham, a counterfeit.
A democratic society needs the active participation of all its citizens, people of faith included. People of faith engage issues on the basis of what they believe, just as atheists engage issues on the basis of what they hold dear; they fight for what they think is right and oppose what they consider wrong. This is not an imposition on other’s morality. It is acting with integrity. Moreover, people of genuine faith strengthen the whole moral fabric of a country. The active engagement of Catholics in democratic processes is good for society and it is responsible citizenship.
*
You may think there are too many laws in this country. I would agree with you. But, you fail to realize that some laws are necessary for the defense of the dignity and rights of human beings. You cannot deny that the Civil Rights Act imposed too much on us as citizens. We, as Catholics, are called to live our faith fully and this includes in the public square. As such, we have a duty to advocate and petition our government for the protection and dignity of all people, born and unborn. The Constitution of the United States gives us that freedom and I, for one, will continue to exercise that freedom.
Regardless of what you think, the pro-abortion lobby does not view the procedure as some sort of unfortunate wrongdoing. They see it as a good and positive act that liberates women and reduces the number of “unwanted” children on this earth. As much as you would like to think you are some sort of enlightened outside observer to the abortion debate, it is my obligation to inform you of the perilousness of this sentiment. As the great thinker G.K. Chesterton said, “Unless a man becomes the enemy of sin, he will not even become it’s slave, but rather it’s champion.”
And if you still think that we Catholics are involved in pushing hate, then perhaps you should be reminded of what Bishop Thomas J. Olmstead said in his work, “Catholics in the Public Square.”
**• How do you respond to statements that Catholics should not impose their religious views upon others?
**
*Some Catholics and other believers have been frightened into silence and even confused by charges that they are imposing their morality on others. It is contended that a person’s faith should have no impact on his or her public life. This leads the infamous “I am a Catholic but….” syndrome! Of course, if one’s faith does not impact on one’s whole life, including one’s political and social responsibilities, then it is not authentic faith; it is a sham, a counterfeit.
A democratic society needs the active participation of all its citizens, people of faith included. People of faith engage issues on the basis of what they believe, just as atheists engage issues on the basis of what they hold dear; they fight for what they think is right and oppose what they consider wrong. This is not an imposition on other’s morality. It is acting with integrity. Moreover, people of genuine faith strengthen the whole moral fabric of a country. The active engagement of Catholics in democratic processes is good for society and it is responsible citizenship.
*
R
Revert_TSIEG
Guest
Resent away, but I wrote that I am open-minded and please change my mind. I was not talking about all Catholics either, but there are many who do push hate, just as many evangelicals who follow the Jerry Falwell movement. Many skew the word for their own personal and profitable well being. I do not want to stir this unsettling pot, but if a voice is loud, whether or not it is a majority or minority, that voice will be what is accepted by the norm. This is the same attitude that many Protestant have taken when making false assumptions and outright lies about Catholics.I really resent you referring to Catholics who advocate the defense of life as “pushing hate.” It seems strangely ironic that you would describe yourself as so liberally progressive and tolerant, and yet you show so little respect to people who differ with you on this issue. It reeks of hubris and is not very becoming of you. But, rest assured I am not here to try to sway your opinion. If you are at all familiar with the specifics of the abortion debate and still consider yourself pro-choice, no words of mine will change your “open” mind.
You may think there are too many laws in this country. I would agree with you. But, you fail to realize that some laws are necessary for the defense of the dignity and rights of human beings. You cannot deny that the Civil Rights Act imposed too much on us as citizens. We, as Catholics, are called to live our faith fully and this includes in the public square. As such, we have a duty to advocate and petition our government for the protection and dignity of all people, born and unborn. The Constitution of the United States gives us that freedom and I, for one, will continue to exercise that freedom.
Regardless of what you think, the pro-abortion lobby does not view the procedure as some sort of unfortunate wrongdoing. They see it as a good and positive act that liberates women and reduces the number of “unwanted” children on this earth. As much as you would like to think you are some sort of enlightened outside observer to the abortion debate, it is my obligation to inform you of the perilousness of this sentiment. As the great thinker G.K. Chesterton said, “Unless a man becomes the enemy of sin, he will not even become it’s slave, but rather it’s champion.”
And if you still think that we Catholics are involved in pushing hate, then perhaps you should be reminded of what Bishop Thomas J. Olmstead said in his work, “Catholics in the Public Square.”
**• How do you respond to statements that Catholics should not impose their religious views upon others?
**
*Some Catholics and other believers have been frightened into silence and even confused by charges that they are imposing their morality on others. It is contended that a person’s faith should have no impact on his or her public life. This leads the infamous “I am a Catholic but….” syndrome! Of course, if one’s faith does not impact on one’s whole life, including one’s political and social responsibilities, then it is not authentic faith; it is a sham, a counterfeit.
A democratic society needs the active participation of all its citizens, people of faith included. People of faith engage issues on the basis of what they believe, just as atheists engage issues on the basis of what they hold dear; they fight for what they think is right and oppose what they consider wrong. This is not an imposition on other’s morality. It is acting with integrity. Moreover, people of genuine faith strengthen the whole moral fabric of a country. The active engagement of Catholics in democratic processes is good for society and it is responsible citizenship.
*
Additionally, your comment about not being in genuine faith because they differ with you is not a good way to get anyone to think in this positive manner (and truthfully it is not, nor will it ever be your responsibility to judge me or anyone else for that matter). Now I, like you believe that we Catholics can do much more with acts rather than words. All I can say is where is the management of these Catholic Universities during controversy.? They are giving in, not to controversial issues, but the foundation of our faith. I think this is something that should be addressed with more veracity than anything else right now. With this much disparity, and an obvious separation within the Church, how can the secular society even look at us as one cohesive unit? Unfortunately, God has made me hard-headed and a stickler on certain things. I wish that I could give in and say that prosecution and persecution of people that abort their unborn children is the right way, but I believe that it goes way beyond that. I am not close-minded and I don’t say it’s my way or the highway. I want an answer for all in this world, not just the faithful or those who say that they are protecting a life. Why not get rid of capital punishment, or take a passive approach to war? The answer to these questions includes the problem with feasibility, although they all sound nice.
Please do not take this the wrong way, but too many attitudes are towards the negative, not the positive. I am by nature a pessimistic, but I do rely on my faith to keep me in check. We need to love one another and actually practice what Jesus taught not put others down.
God Bless,
I will pray for the strength in you and me to hold to our values while preserving the word of our Lord.
Revert TSIEG
R
royal_archer
Guest
I have used this same arguement when leftist try to push welfare, affirmative action, environmental regulations, and a host of other laws and public burdens on us. That argument usually fell on on deaf ears. However, one of the few legitimate purposes of government is to protect the innocent. This is not because Jesus told us to do so. It is because civil society can not exist if any individuals are made the victims of others.First and foremost, there are too many laws in this country… living overseas for several years, you don’t see signs stating common stuff. For example, I was having a surgery in Lubbock, TX at Tech, and was asked by a Brit “why are there signs all over the roads saying do not drink and drive, don’t Americans know not to drink and drive?” I answered, because we as Americans will argue and sue if we have to in order to get the point across that the facts were not in our faces… that is our society. Meaning, that we will say I did not know, or there was not sign, so drinking and driving must be legal.
How do you define protecting babies from murderers as hate?You may ask, what does this have to do with pro-choice/pro-life…well laws!! Most conservatives believe in less regulation, less legal and national control. Why must THIS issue be forced in law. Jesus, as far as I know, did not pushed for laws! Yes, he spoke of the moral code of God, but he did not say to get legislation out for prohibitions. Jesus said to love, not to hate. What kind of Catholics are we pushing this kind of hate, and it is hate…
During the 1850’s some thought slavery was proper while others thought it was not. Back then the simple questions was “Are these entities human” the same question is raised today. Some people think it is OK to kill their school are children. Are you advocating the same response to these murderers as to the ones who do it a few years earlier in their childrens development?I know abortions are wrong, and I hope all of you reading this feel the same. My questions are, why do we know it is wrong, but others think that it is not wrong. I don’t think anyone, regardless of political or religious preference, think abortions are ok, many just do not want it to be illegal by legal means. I believe, as stated on previous posts, that we need to SHOW, not TELL these women the affects of their decisions…
It is as feasible as it was to outlaw slavery during its peak. It may take time and effort but it can be done.I am all for pushing for legislation of showing sonograms, telling the father, and in underage situations, telling the parents. I will vote on all these right now. But overturning Rowe v. Wade is not feasible… it is like telling my son to hit a home run out of Yankee stadium off a 100MPH pitch and he is almost 5, not going to happen Be realist in your/our goals and take small steps, not go straight for the the end result. It is what happened in all revolutions, look at the civil rights movements in the US. It took small, all-be-it, loud steps.
Pro choice is a false title. There is a choice to be made but their are two parties impacted by the “choice” one moderately and the other permanately. How can you say any person has the right to unilateraly decide to kill another?I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion as some like to title it. I am open minded, and I have not yet seen an argument that states we should make decisions for others to change my mind to pro-life. Most of the pro-lifers I have spoken to are too close minded and condescending that I shut down after less that a min. I hope the responses trying to sway me are not condescending and have an open minded nature to them so as to be not augmentative in nature.
Revert TSIEG
R
Revert_TSIEG
Guest
Ohh ya, I don’t impose my religious views on others, I show others with my actions. I do infer, but never impose, unless they ask a question that enables me to speak my mind. My job, and most I work around do not allow for free expression, come one this is the US! HAHAI really resent you referring to Catholics who advocate the defense of life as “pushing hate.” It seems strangely ironic that you would describe yourself as so liberally progressive and tolerant, and yet you show so little respect to people who differ with you on this issue. It reeks of hubris and is not very becoming of you. But, rest assured I am not here to try to sway your opinion. If you are at all familiar with the specifics of the abortion debate and still consider yourself pro-choice, no words of mine will change your “open” mind.
You may think there are too many laws in this country. I would agree with you. But, you fail to realize that some laws are necessary for the defense of the dignity and rights of human beings. You cannot deny that the Civil Rights Act imposed too much on us as citizens. We, as Catholics, are called to live our faith fully and this includes in the public square. As such, we have a duty to advocate and petition our government for the protection and dignity of all people, born and unborn. The Constitution of the United States gives us that freedom and I, for one, will continue to exercise that freedom.
Regardless of what you think, the pro-abortion lobby does not view the procedure as some sort of unfortunate wrongdoing. They see it as a good and positive act that liberates women and reduces the number of “unwanted” children on this earth. As much as you would like to think you are some sort of enlightened outside observer to the abortion debate, it is my obligation to inform you of the perilousness of this sentiment. As the great thinker G.K. Chesterton said, “Unless a man becomes the enemy of sin, he will not even become it’s slave, but rather it’s champion.”
And if you still think that we Catholics are involved in pushing hate, then perhaps you should be reminded of what Bishop Thomas J. Olmstead said in his work, “Catholics in the Public Square.”
**• How do you respond to statements that Catholics should not impose their religious views upon others?
**
*Some Catholics and other believers have been frightened into silence and even confused by charges that they are imposing their morality on others. It is contended that a person’s faith should have no impact on his or her public life. This leads the infamous “I am a Catholic but….” syndrome! Of course, if one’s faith does not impact on one’s whole life, including one’s political and social responsibilities, then it is not authentic faith; it is a sham, a counterfeit.
A democratic society needs the active participation of all its citizens, people of faith included. People of faith engage issues on the basis of what they believe, just as atheists engage issues on the basis of what they hold dear; they fight for what they think is right and oppose what they consider wrong. This is not an imposition on other’s morality. It is acting with integrity. Moreover, people of genuine faith strengthen the whole moral fabric of a country. The active engagement of Catholics in democratic processes is good for society and it is responsible citizenship.
*
Revert TSIEG
O
OKCatholic
Guest
So, which is it? Are you open minded or hard headed?
It’s sad that you assume the worst in the people who are Pro-Life. Like former President Bill Clinton you label us (either by lack of knowledge or by malicious intent) as a movement dead set on punishing those who perform or undergo an abortion. As a movement we have never nor shall we ever advocate for punishing women who have had abortions. We do, however, advocate that current state laws be enforced in regards to abortion providers who break the law. You fail to realize that the movement itself is led by many women who have had abortions. If you’ve ever spent time with these women, the pain and suffering that comes with having an abortion is far worse than any sentence a court could ever impose. Were it not for the Church and other faith communities, these women would have no one to help pick up the pieces of their shattered lives. Abortion clinics don’t offer post-abortion counseling.
I hope that you are sincere when you suggest that we love one another as Christ taught. But, you give poor example to that when you use words like “hateful” and “small minded” to describe Pro-Life Catholics.
It’s sad that you assume the worst in the people who are Pro-Life. Like former President Bill Clinton you label us (either by lack of knowledge or by malicious intent) as a movement dead set on punishing those who perform or undergo an abortion. As a movement we have never nor shall we ever advocate for punishing women who have had abortions. We do, however, advocate that current state laws be enforced in regards to abortion providers who break the law. You fail to realize that the movement itself is led by many women who have had abortions. If you’ve ever spent time with these women, the pain and suffering that comes with having an abortion is far worse than any sentence a court could ever impose. Were it not for the Church and other faith communities, these women would have no one to help pick up the pieces of their shattered lives. Abortion clinics don’t offer post-abortion counseling.
I hope that you are sincere when you suggest that we love one another as Christ taught. But, you give poor example to that when you use words like “hateful” and “small minded” to describe Pro-Life Catholics.
E
Eddie_Mac
Guest
Respectfully, you write very well.I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion as some like to title it.
That said, your above statement does not make sense.
Words mean things, and no matter how you try to sugar coat your posts, you are for abortion.
Either you are for abortion or you are not. Shrugging your shoulders and trying to explain your way around why you would not denounce the wanton slaughter of millions of babies is truly a shame if you profess at all any inkling to follow Christ as your Lord and Savior.
You cannot have it both ways. One way or the other. Your …choice. You need to decide the right way.
Eddie Mac
J
JimG
Guest
Abortion regulation or non-regulation has pretty much always been a part of the laws of each individual state. Some states were more restrictive, some less restrictive. Most states did not allow late term abortion or abortion for any reason whatever.You may ask, what does this have to do with pro-choice/pro-life…well laws!! Most conservatives believe in less regulation, less legal and national control. Why must THIS issue be forced in law.
What was forced into law in 1973 was the approval of abortion on demand throughout nine months of pregnancy.
Recent polls indicate that most citizens would not on their own, vote for such an unlimited abortion regime. But, they have no vote. That was taken from them by the SCOTUS.
R
Revert_TSIEG
Guest
Using your ill idea of what is right and what is wrong, you are either pro-war, or anti-war! I seriously doubt that anyone is 100% on one side of the issue. The war stance kills innocent people as well. I think there is a gross oversimplification what is being stated.Respectfully, you write very well.
That said, your above statement does not make sense.
Words mean things, and no matter how you try to sugar coat your posts, you are for abortion.
Either you are for abortion or you are not. Shrugging your shoulders and trying to explain your way around why you would not denounce the wanton slaughter of millions of babies is truly a shame if you profess at all any inkling to follow Christ as your Lord and Savior.
You cannot have it both ways. One way or the other. Your …choice. You need to decide the right way.
Eddie Mac
You can classify me all you like. But it will be very difficult for someone to “fight” for their cause telling someone they are wrong and they will never be right. I know what I believe, and I feel that perhaps my intentions and beliefs are not properly being stated. I’ll sleep and pray for the right words.
Question:
If I say that I am pro-choice, and do not rally or tell people that it is wrong, unless they ask, am I really pro-choice?
Lastly, I truly hope there is not one more abortion.
God Bless,
Revert TSIEG
O
OKCatholic
Guest
At least in a war a person has a legitimate chance of finding safety and surviving. What defensive capabilities does an unborn child have except for those already born to advocate on their behalf? As the bishops and the Pope himself have said, not all issues are of equal value. The right to life supersedes the war debate. If you want proof just look at the numbers. Fifty million dead in the US so far since 1973. And that number is rising.Using your ill idea of what is right and what is wrong, you are either pro-war, or anti-war! I seriously doubt that anyone is 100% on one side of the issue. The war stance kills innocent people as well. I think there is a gross oversimplification what is being stated.
You can classify me all you like. But it will be very difficult for someone to “fight” for their cause telling someone they are wrong and they will never be right. I know what I believe, and I feel that perhaps my intentions and beliefs are not properly being stated. I’ll sleep and pray for the right words.
Question:
If I say that I am pro-choice, and do not rally or tell people that it is wrong, unless they ask, am I really pro-choice?
Lastly, I truly hope there is not one more abortion.
God Bless,
Revert TSIEG
I don’t doubt with a fresh mind you’ll introduce more sordid lines of the abortion apologists. Sin can often be so beautifully described one can easily forget it’s a sin in the first place.
I’ll conclude my involvement with this thread with a heartfelt plea. If you really want to be a Catholic, work and pray to be a faithful Catholic in your entire being leaving no room for pessimism. As John Paul II said, “We are an Easter people and Alleluia is our song!”
R
royal_archer
Guest
War is always wrong and evil. Sometimes it is the lesser evil but is still evil. With abortion the murderer is choosing evil which is worse than the other options. While there is sometimes justification for war as the lesser evil, there is never justification for killing an innocent child.Using your ill idea of what is right and what is wrong, you are either pro-war, or anti-war! I seriously doubt that anyone is 100% on one side of the issue. The war stance kills innocent people as well. I think there is a gross oversimplification what is being stated.
You can classify me all you like. But it will be very difficult for someone to “fight” for their cause telling someone they are wrong and they will never be right. I know what I believe, and I feel that perhaps my intentions and beliefs are not properly being stated. I’ll sleep and pray for the right words.
Question:
If I say that I am pro-choice, and do not rally or tell people that it is wrong, unless they ask, am I really pro-choice?
Lastly, I truly hope there is not one more abortion.
God Bless,
Revert TSIEG
E
Eddie_Mac
Guest
There is both sin of commission and omission.Using your ill idea of what is right and what is wrong, you are either pro-war, or anti-war! I seriously doubt that anyone is 100% on one side of the issue. The war stance kills innocent people as well. I think there is a gross oversimplification what is being stated.
You can classify me all you like. But it will be very difficult for someone to “fight” for their cause telling someone they are wrong and they will never be right. I know what I believe, and I feel that perhaps my intentions and beliefs are not properly being stated. I’ll sleep and pray for the right words.
Question:
If I say that I am pro-choice, and do not rally or tell people that it is wrong, unless they ask, am I really pro-choice?
Lastly, I truly hope there is not one more abortion.
God Bless,
Revert TSIEG
I am pro war when my countrty is right.
I am anti-war when it is wrong.
I cannot think of any issue where I shrug my shoulders and say whatever.
Right or wrong.
Truth or lie.
Pro or anti.
You can claim to be neutral but what you are doing is not taking a stand. Neutral is not an opinion. Neutral is nothing.
By your baptismand confirmation you were brought ibnto the Church and by this you Catholicity requires you to stand up and speak the truth.
My comments stand.
Eddie Mac
K
KingTheoden
Guest
With all due respect to the poster in question, there is a BIG issue that spans over this entire discussion (as well as many others). I will get to that below.
Okay. The root of this is actually the same one that feeds other things I see on the forum or hear from cultural Catholic friends. “Well, to me…” or “I think…” or “My determination is…”
As a relatively new Catholic (Confirmed April 2009), I have gone to daily Mass for about a month to help mend myself, educate myself, and submit to the Holy Spirit. It truly surprises me to see so many Catholics personalize morality. A major initial point for me going to RCIA was the authority of the Church.
We are to respect it, acknowledge its primacy, and - yes - submit to it.
When I first joined over a month ago, there were points I had trouble completely accepting. Why? Because I was still trying to explain them in scientific/rational terms. We have to give up a big part of our egos and accept what we profess, that there is only one holy Catholic and Apostalic Church that has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who will never leave it.
If we try to reason every issue that makes us wriggle a bit, then we would be nothing but a new strain of Protestant (you know, where everyone makes up his own mind about Scripture).
In fact those people exist in our very ranks. "I don’t like the Church on birth control…there Church needs to modernize and accept homosexuality…that cohabitation thing is just silly…I should be able to have sex with my girlfriend because we are close…the Church should tone down the whole Mary veneration thing…Adam and Eve were just metaphors…Christ is not the only way…
See where this is leading us?
The same duty that we have to establish laws against pornography, theft, prostitution, murder (of those born) compels us to defend those unborn. Period.I want to say that I a pro-choice, but only from the political perspective. I, myself, would never want any woman I know to have an abortion. My wife and I feel the same way. Although we would never do it ourselves, what right do we have to give a vote that passes legislation.
Yes, education is crutial. But I will not wait for college students to come around to the fact that private property is not ‘a social construct of a patriarchal slave structure.’ I sure will continue to acknowledge property rights. Similarly, we have no business or justification waiting for it to sink into many confused, misled, and some intensely selfish people before actively preventing killing unborn persons.It is a very complex subject for many people. I believe that education is the key to getting this whole thing back in control. I believe that if we have a more inclusive attitude, we can help these women and show the there are alternatives as opposed to be so judgemental.
Passing judgement means speculating on whether a woman who receives an abortion goes to hell, heaven, or spends time in purgetory. It would be debating what form of purification she would receive there. So, no one here is passing judgement. We are merely submitting to Jesus Christ and His Church by working to manifest His love.Lastly, I just have to say that it is not our right to pass judgement on anyone. God gave us all free will and everyone will one day have to answer to our creator. I just pray that the lord helps those who are lost and show them that they too can live the life he intended.
Once again, the focus is on personal, individual determination. As I wrote at the very top of this post, I am going to address this enormous fallacy.Have you ever seen the movie Juno where a high school senior gets pregnant and decides to get an abortions, but comes to the realization that it is wrong. The girl in the movies motivation is not based on her religious beliefs, but by the hard concrete fact that she has a baby in her, not a “fetus”. This illustration to her allows her to have a realization that she need to have the baby.
Permitting an upset and confused friend to burn someone’s house to settle a score is NOT respecting him; it is a perfect example of what we mean when we confess by asking forgiveness for 'what we have failed to do.’This is my approach, it in now way endorses the act of abortion, but respects the woman, not the right.
Which is another problematic statement, but that is a whole different topic…It is like saying that you support the troops without supporting the war.
Okay. The root of this is actually the same one that feeds other things I see on the forum or hear from cultural Catholic friends. “Well, to me…” or “I think…” or “My determination is…”
As a relatively new Catholic (Confirmed April 2009), I have gone to daily Mass for about a month to help mend myself, educate myself, and submit to the Holy Spirit. It truly surprises me to see so many Catholics personalize morality. A major initial point for me going to RCIA was the authority of the Church.
We are to respect it, acknowledge its primacy, and - yes - submit to it.
When I first joined over a month ago, there were points I had trouble completely accepting. Why? Because I was still trying to explain them in scientific/rational terms. We have to give up a big part of our egos and accept what we profess, that there is only one holy Catholic and Apostalic Church that has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who will never leave it.
If we try to reason every issue that makes us wriggle a bit, then we would be nothing but a new strain of Protestant (you know, where everyone makes up his own mind about Scripture).
In fact those people exist in our very ranks. "I don’t like the Church on birth control…there Church needs to modernize and accept homosexuality…that cohabitation thing is just silly…I should be able to have sex with my girlfriend because we are close…the Church should tone down the whole Mary veneration thing…Adam and Eve were just metaphors…Christ is not the only way…
See where this is leading us?
M
MarysGirls
Guest
:clapping::clapping:Okay. The root of this is actually the same one that feeds other things I see on the forum or hear from cultural Catholic friends. “Well, to me…” or “I think…” or “My determination is…”
As a relatively new Catholic (Confirmed April 2009), I have gone to daily Mass for about a month to help mend myself, educate myself, and submit to the Holy Spirit. It truly surprises me to see so many Catholics personalize morality. A major initial point for me going to RCIA was the authority of the Church.
We are to respect it, acknowledge its primacy, and - yes - submit to it.
When I first joined over a month ago, there were points I had trouble completely accepting. Why? Because I was still trying to explain them in scientific/rational terms. We have to give up a big part of our egos and accept what we profess, that there is only one holy Catholic and Apostalic Church that has been guided by the Holy Spirit, who will never leave it.
If we try to reason every issue that makes us wriggle a bit, then we would be nothing but a new strain of Protestant (you know, where everyone makes up his own mind about Scripture).
In fact those people exist in our very ranks. "I don’t like the Church on birth control…there Church needs to modernize and accept homosexuality…that cohabitation thing is just silly…I should be able to have sex with my girlfriend because we are close…the Church should tone down the whole Mary veneration thing…Adam and Eve were just metaphors…Christ is not the only way…
See where this is leading us?
R
ryecroft
Guest
I’m glad that you agree that the fetus is living. We have some common ground.
So what if I you invite me into your house (like a person invites a child by having sex), use up your resources (such as food, electricity, etc.), cause you emotional stress (if you don’t believe I can, talk to my wife), negatively impact you socially (if your friends don’t like me), and economically (I drive an Audi A4 and repairs aren’t cheap. It’ll also need new tires this winter). And I could potentially cause you harm because I am bi-polar. And you have to endure me for nine months.
So that gives you the right to kill me?
No - but I would have kicked you out much , much earlier!
BTW - I am not for abortion most of the time - the time that I believe it is acceptable is when the life of the mother or the life of the mother and the fetus are very much in danger - I say this because I had to make this choice - I had just hit four months and I began to bleed copiously - to the point that within the hour I would have lost too much blood to live- the fetus would not have lived if delivered and if delivered would have caused much more bleeding. In this case neither of us would have lived so instead of having two die we decided that at least one should live. I didn’t like the decision but the only other choice was for both of us to die and no one gains from that. I know this is one of the rare circumstances but it does happen. And no the doctor didn’t just say this to make things easier on him. Since then I have asked other doctors if they saw any other way out and the answer has always been - only for both of you to die. I waited as long as I possibly could and I will not ever feel shame or guilt for choosing life -my life over death.
God Bless
So what if I you invite me into your house (like a person invites a child by having sex), use up your resources (such as food, electricity, etc.), cause you emotional stress (if you don’t believe I can, talk to my wife), negatively impact you socially (if your friends don’t like me), and economically (I drive an Audi A4 and repairs aren’t cheap. It’ll also need new tires this winter). And I could potentially cause you harm because I am bi-polar. And you have to endure me for nine months.
So that gives you the right to kill me?
No - but I would have kicked you out much , much earlier!
BTW - I am not for abortion most of the time - the time that I believe it is acceptable is when the life of the mother or the life of the mother and the fetus are very much in danger - I say this because I had to make this choice - I had just hit four months and I began to bleed copiously - to the point that within the hour I would have lost too much blood to live- the fetus would not have lived if delivered and if delivered would have caused much more bleeding. In this case neither of us would have lived so instead of having two die we decided that at least one should live. I didn’t like the decision but the only other choice was for both of us to die and no one gains from that. I know this is one of the rare circumstances but it does happen. And no the doctor didn’t just say this to make things easier on him. Since then I have asked other doctors if they saw any other way out and the answer has always been - only for both of you to die. I waited as long as I possibly could and I will not ever feel shame or guilt for choosing life -my life over death.
God Bless
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