Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

[limerick]

L,

Thanks for hanging in there and keeping this dialogue going. I see that you are being unnecessarily beat up a bit, and I do think some folks would do well to absorb the fact that you are not pro-abortion. I think the accusation of such stems from the idea that if you say you are “pro-choice” in today’s language, where it is used exclusively in the context of abortion law, then it essentially means that you do not recognize human life in the womb with a right to life which supersedes the right to good health or ease of burden of the mother. This is the essential difference, I think, which is why I had earlier tried to probe into your belief in ‘when life begins’. And forgive me if you’ve already answered this, and this will be the last time I repeat the question…if you somehow came into an awareness that human life, along with its inherent right to life, undoubtedly begins at the moment of conception, would you feel, as you do now, that women who choose to terminate this life within them should be left alone in that decision?

I guess it boils down to a situation wherein some understand and hold to the belief that the aborted fetus is no different from the innocent bystander on the downtown corner getting murdered by some thug. It’s not to equate the thug with the mother at all. The motivations and personalities and dispositions are certainly polar opposite. Rather, it’s equating the action, the taking of life. In both cases, it’s innocent life…and in both cases, it’s the deliberate taking of that life. The thug does it with hatred, greed and pride in his heart…the mother does it with confusion, love and heartbreak. But it doesn’t change the fact that the act can and should be defined as “murder”.

If you saw the fetus as the “innocent bystander”, would you then want to intervene somehow?

**
I already believe human life begins at conception. I have been through an abortion and have lived with this reality for almost four decades - longer than many posters here have been alive. I knew what I was doing when I went in, I know what I did when I did it, and I still know it. This is my cross to bear and it’s between God and me. Only God and me.

To answer your other question, I am steadfast in maintaining that it is not my place to attempt to coerce, persuade or influence any other individual to behave in any particular way under any circumstance. Every woman considering abortion has her own God, her own conscience, her own tangled web, and she is the one who has to decide and reconcile her decision. I will not share my story unless asked and, really, what has any woman to learn from it? What is to be gained by my recounting a tale from so long ago? I can tell her I was ignorant, but I can’t tell her I was afraid. I can tell her I was regretful but I can’t tell her I ever even fleetingly considered having that baby. No insight can be imparted with my story. She has to have her own story. This is how she will learn. This is one reason I become incensed when a person who has never been in this position and has never had his or her faith tested at this gut level pontificates and sniffs that “other options were available”. No. No, they were not. Not to me.

Hope that answers your questions.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

By the way; if you find the term so disturbing, shouldn’t you find the act even more disturbing? Please, help us to put a stop to this act. Don’t you want to help a young mother avoid the pain you have been through?

Originally Posted by royal archer:
"Sio because you can not hear the screams of the innocent children being murdered, they are not worthy of your help? You are being helped, why won’t you return the favor and help these children?"

**You cannot hear screams of innocent children being murdered, either, royal archer. This device is called either hyperbole or just plain manipulative BS.

I don’t find the term as disturbing as I do your glib and gleeful application of it. I know a child who hanged herself and survived, only to be forever carried or wheeled by her parents because she can no longer walk. She has lost most of her intellectual capacity due to oxygen deprivation. She did this to herself. Would you call her a pathetic retard?

Tip of the day: mind your manners.

Limerick**

 

[royal_archer]

**

To answer your other question, I am steadfast in maintaining that it is not my place to attempt to coerce, persuade or influence any other individual to behave in any particular way under any circumstance. Every woman considering abortion has her own God, her own conscience, her own tangled web, and she is the one who has to decide and reconcile her decision. I will not share my story unless asked and, really, what has any woman to learn from it? What is to be gained by my recounting a tale from so long ago? I can tell her I was ignorant, but I can’t tell her I was afraid. I can tell her I was regretful but I can’t tell her I ever even fleetingly considered having that baby. No insight can be imparted with my story. She has to have her own story. This is how she will learn. This is one reason I become incensed when a person who has never been in this position and has never had his or her faith tested at this gut level pontificates and sniffs that “other options were available”. No. No, they were not. Not to me.

Hope that answers your questions.

Limerick**

I am sure you perceived that there were no other options available, at least none that seemed easier than the course you took. However you should now see that there are other courses of action and you should be helping these young women to see those actions instead of sitting back and lammenting about the demons of your past.

 

[SteveGC]

**
I already believe human life begins at conception. I have been through an abortion and have lived with this reality for almost four decades - longer than many posters here have been alive. I knew what I was doing when I went in, I know what I did when I did it, and I still know it. This is my cross to bear and it’s between God and me. Only God and me.

To answer your other question, I am steadfast in maintaining that it is not my place to attempt to coerce, persuade or influence any other individual to behave in any particular way under any circumstance. Every woman considering abortion has her own God, her own conscience, her own tangled web, and she is the one who has to decide and reconcile her decision. I will not share my story unless asked and, really, what has any woman to learn from it? What is to be gained by my recounting a tale from so long ago? I can tell her I was ignorant, but I can’t tell her I was afraid. I can tell her I was regretful but I can’t tell her I ever even fleetingly considered having that baby. No insight can be imparted with my story. She has to have her own story. This is how she will learn. This is one reason I become incensed when a person who has never been in this position and has never had his or her faith tested at this gut level pontificates and sniffs that “other options were available”. No. No, they were not. Not to me.

Hope that answers your questions.

Limerick**

Yes, it does. And thanks for your candidness. I disagree of course, that no one can learn from your wisdom. After all, the very essence of how it has affected you in the future is what women need to hear, as opposed to how you felt going in back then. And to a degree, I see your point about allowing others to live their own lives, and learn their own lessons. But wouldn’t you agree there are some lessons that we don’t want people to have to learn the hard way? I don’t think God wants this either. He doesn’t want someone to kill another so that they can learn a lesson. I truly believe He would want those who have learned NOT to kill to intervene in some way. And, don’t even you have to admit, L, that if you saw a child in the playground being tempted by a stranger in a car, you would intervene? You wouldn’t let the abductor just learn his own lesson the hard way would you? Again, it’s not that the abductor and the mother are one in the same. Far from it. But it’s about the life being taken. Intervention is most certainly called for in these cases, no?

 

[kage_ar]

** “other options were available”. No. No, they were not. Not to me.**

Hope that answers your questions.

There were no adoption agencies, no social services… no churches or synagogues or mosques that would take in a child and raise? Not one?

 

[limerick]

Yes, it does. And thanks for your candidness. I disagree of course, that no one can learn from your wisdom. After all, the very essence of how it has affected you in the future is what women need to hear, as opposed to how you felt going in back then. And to a degree, I see your point about allowing others to live their own lives, and learn their own lessons. But wouldn’t you agree there are some lessons that we don’t want people to have to learn the hard way? I don’t think God wants this either. He doesn’t want someone to kill another so that they can learn a lesson. I truly believe He would want those who have learned NOT to kill to intervene in some way. And, don’t even you have to admit, L, that if you saw a child in the playground being tempted by a stranger in a car, you would intervene? You wouldn’t let the abductor just learn his own lesson the hard way would you? Again, it’s not that the abductor and the mother are one in the same. Far from it. But it’s about the life being taken. Intervention is most certainly called for in these cases, no?

**I don’t know how I would respond to an abductor, as I have been abducted myself and (at the risk of “sitting back and lamenting about the demons of [my] past”) brutally sexually assaulted. I cannot know what my response would be. So if there’s a crack in my veneer you may have found it.

As far as God not wanting us to do one thing or wanting us to do another, I think you know Him better than I do. My relationship with Him is mostly a waiting game until existence ceases. Then it’s the slow walkin’ and the fast talkin’. I’m really not plugged into all the mercy/grace/love/obedience thing. It’s just too tedious. And there are select people whom I would pay money to see learn something the hardest way known to man. I don’t have much patience or tolerance for people. The Great Disenfranchised. That’s me. (Please, no evangelizing. It’s past my bedtime.)

L**

 

[limerick]

I am sure you perceived that there were no other options available, at least none that seemed easier than the course you took. However you should now see that there are other courses of action and you should be helping these young women to see those actions instead of sitting back and lammenting about the demons of your past.

**You have failed over and over to appreciate my position. You do not have to agree with it, but please allow me to state it again: I am a non-interventionist. I do not force my beliefs on any other individual for any reason; I keep my thoughts and experiences to myself unless asked, and only if asked will I step in and take action. So for you to tell me straight out that I "should be helping these young women … " is nearly laughable in the face of everything that I have revealed about myself.

Once again, good job.

Limerick**

 

[elts1956]

***Now, here’s a post that exemplifies presumption. ***

Where’s your tally of the many people you have converted? Is it in “My Documents”, all neatly alphabetized with smiley faces according to how quickly your converts adopted your viewpoint, all fresh and loving?

You know, Eddie Mac, you have absolutely no idea how many rusty hangers and knitting needles I have stacked up in my closet, just waiting for one of those naive, little, trembling pubescents to fall away from the “huddle” and volunteer to have her uterus perforated in order that that nothing-but-a-blob might just be expelled onto the carpet. I have mercy, E.M.! I’ll give her some of my stash of Oxycodone to get her over the first difficult day or two. And then I’ll add her to my own list, in “My Documents”, all neatly alphabetized with smiley faces according to how quickly she succumbed to my undeniable power to persuade her to discard her own moral code for mine: my unfathomably evil “moral code”.

By the way, we pump fists and chest slam DURING each procedure. Get hip.
*
Over the top ridiculous deserves response in kind.*

Limerick

Although I disagree with your complete non involvement in the pro life movement, this did make me laugh. Yeah, I have a weird sense of humor. :whacky:

 

[elts1956]

I am sure you perceived that there were no other options available, at least none that seemed easier than the course you took. However you should now see that there are other courses of action and you should be helping these young women to see those actions instead of sitting back and lammenting about the demons of your past.

Limerick has said on many of her posts that she regrets her abortion, that she has been emotionally paying for it for 38? years.

Our? (my) biggest problem is now her willingness to stand by and take NO action to help prevent more killing of babies. Her morality and ours in this instance are different. I don’t agree with her, but she has a right to her opinion without being browbeaten.

 

[royal_archer]

Originally Posted by royal archer:
"Sio because you can not hear the screams of the innocent children being murdered, they are not worthy of your help? You are being helped, why won’t you return the favor and help these children?"

**You cannot hear screams of innocent children being murdered, either, royal archer. This device is called either hyperbole or just plain manipulative BS.

I don’t find the term as disturbing as I do your glib and gleeful application of it. I know a child who hanged herself and survived, only to be forever carried or wheeled by her parents because she can no longer walk. She has lost most of her intellectual capacity due to oxygen deprivation. She did this to herself. Would you call her a pathetic retard?

Tip of the day: mind your manners.

Limerick**

I didn’t say I could hear there screems. I was attempting to identify what makes these people any less worthy of protection than other human beings. The fact that most of these children have not been given a chance to take air into their lungs is one of the few differences between them and the rest of us. Hence their inability to have a screem heard.

Glib and gleeful appreciation??? No, and not sure how you could make such an assessment from my posts. Also , am confused about why you would be talking about a child who tried to committ suicide. and calling someone names in your example would not be a parrallel to using the term murder. Murder is a noun/verb refering to an act which would more closely allign with the term hanged in your example. Yes, I could use a much more pleasent sounding euphamism for the term murder but that would be an innacurate portrayal of seriousness of the act.

 

[royal_archer]

Limerick has said on many of her posts that she regrets her abortion, that she has been emotionally paying for it for 38? years.

Our? (my) biggest problem is now her willingness to stand by and take NO action to help prevent more killing of babies. Her morality and ours in this instance are different. I don’t agree with her, but she has a right to her opinion without being browbeaten.

RE: "but she has a right to her opinion " I hope you do not mean to imply that the rest of us do not have the right to express our opinion.

Limerick claims to be against intervention but she is intervening in this discussion. I am guessing that there is more to the story. I believe that there is something that needs to come out and be addressed here. I am not “brow beating”, I am probing and you may notice I have tried to address this from many angles trying to find common ground to work from.

 

[limerick]

There were no adoption agencies, no social services… no churches or synagogues or mosques that would take in a child and raise? Not one?

I lived in a shack in the mountains, nearest town 25 miles down the mountain, population 600. One general store, one diner, one post office, one liquor store. No adoption agencies (!) I was on food stamps, had no car, no family, had no money of my own. A friend went to town every 30 days to buy groceries. Town was 35 miles away. Food for 7 had to last for the month. Yes, these were seven unrelated people. Churches? I lived there for a year and never saw one, but I didn’t get away from the house much. Synagogues and mosques? There wasn’t a Jew or Muslim in the entire state. The bridge that spanned the Potomac had recently had its sign removed, one which said, "Nier, don’t let the sun set on you here!"

We’re talkin’ remote.

Limerick**

 

[elts1956]

RE: "but she has a right to her opinion " I hope you do not mean to imply that the rest of us do not have the right to express our opinion.

Limerick claims to be against intervention but she is intervening in this discussion. I am guessing that there is more to the story. I believe that there is something that needs to come out and be addressed here. I am not “brow beating”, I am probing and you may notice I have tried to address this from many angles trying to find common ground to work from.

I have no doubt she has been emotionally paying for it for ~38 years. But to use an annalogy, if you have a splinter stuck in your flesh it will hurt but pulling the splinter out will hurt more. The problem is if you do not get the splinter out you can not complete the healing proccess. What I suspect with Limerick is that there is something that is inhibiting the healing process. God has given us a subconcious ability to seek the remedy for our ailments (cravings for foods that contain vitimins we need). Now she has come to this forum, (not a pro abortion forum where she will be surrounded by people who support her past act). Are we going to try to intervene and help her get past this?

Hi. I agree that we are all entitled to our opinion, but “I” think some posts to Limerick do smack of impatience. I also definitely agree there is a “thorn” that has festered for many years in her side. There are some deep issues here.

I have also heard that we, who have emotional anguish, could be compared to an onion which has many layers. The only way the layers can come off, one layer at a time, is to face them and perhaps talk about them. And the only way to heal and get to the “other side” of pain is to walk through it. We can’t get around it.

 

[limerick]

I didn’t say I could hear there screems. I was attempting to identify what makes these people any less worthy of protection than other human beings. The fact that most of these children have not been given a chance to take air into their lungs is one of the few differences between them and the rest of us. Hence their inability to have a screem heard.

Glib and gleeful appreciation??? No, and not sure how you could make such an assessment from my posts. Also , am confused about why you would be talking about a child who tried to committ suicide. and calling someone names in your example would not be a parrallel to using the term murder. Murder is a noun/verb refering to an act which would more closely allign with the term hanged in your example. Yes, I could use a much more pleasent sounding euphamism for the term murder but that would be an innacurate portrayal of seriousness of the act.

**I said “glib and gleeful application” of hyperbole. You misread.

This child did not try to commit suicide. She got tangled and could not take enough of a breath to call for her mother. Not murder, not suicide. But I used the example as an illustration of a situation where I would expect you to apply your “glib and gleeful” name-calling in a frenzy of compassionless, tasteless finger-pointing. If you would be so gauche as to call a woman who had had an abortion a murderer, what would stop you from calling this child a pathetic retard? My focus is not on the truth of the circumstances: it’s on the absolutely reprehensible willingness to put the words to it. I may have killed my child, but you are casting a stone in pointing it out. **It’s not your story to tell.

**Limerick **

 

[royal_archer]

**You have failed over and over to appreciate my position. You do not have to agree with it, but please allow me to state it again: I am a non-interventionist. I do not force my beliefs on any other individual for any reason; I keep my thoughts and experiences to myself unless asked, and only if asked will I step in and take action. So for you to tell me straight out that I "should be helping these young women … " is nearly laughable in the face of everything that I have revealed about myself.

Once again, good job.

Limerick**

If you are a non-interventionist, why are you intervening here? Please do not take that as an insinuation you shouldn’t be here. It is more that you have shown a willingness to intervene, by intervening here, so why are you so opposed to intervening in the support of babies and why are you seemingly against society intervening to save those babies?

As for you possition as a non-interventionist, I can probably appreciate that much more than most people in this country since I am a fairly staunch libertarian. The reason this topic comes up as an exception is that their are lives at stake. I definately wouldn’t want to force people to pray, go to church, or participate in numerous other religious / moral issues.

I can also accept that there are millions of people out there who don’t care, go to work, eat their mac and cheese, read the commics and go to bed. There are many worthy causes that I do not involve my self in. If you had no calling to this topic and didn’t intervene it would seem perfectly reasonable.

The reason your posts have gained my attention is that you are involved, you are active in the discussion, and you do show a passion for the topic. I know you have something possitive to offer here and it is a bit frustrating that I can’t seem to tap into it.

 

[limerick]

RE: "but she has a right to her opinion " I hope you do not mean to imply that the rest of us do not have the right to express our opinion.

Limerick claims to be against intervention but she is intervening in this discussion. I am guessing that there is more to the story. I believe that there is something that needs to come out and be addressed here. I am not “brow beating”, I am probing and you may notice I have tried to address this from many angles trying to find common ground to work from.

**No one has asked you to “work” on me, so with as much respect as is possible to muster, I am telling you and not asking you to back off. I began my participation on this thread as the solitary different voice and, as usual, have ended up researching and investigating and defending and explaining and it is all for naught. So no use trying to pry open a can that was opened long before you began addressing it. Either accept it at face value or do not accept it at all.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

If you are a non-interventionist, why are you intervening here? Please do not take that as an insinuation you shouldn’t be here. It is more that you have shown a willingness to intervene, by intervening here, so why are you so opposed to intervening in the support of babies and why are you seemingly against society intervening to save those babies?

As for you possition as a non-interventionist, I can probably appreciate that much more than most people in this country since I am a fairly staunch libertarian. The reason this topic comes up as an exception is that their are lives at stake. I definately wouldn’t want to force people to pray, go to church, or participate in numerous other religious / moral issues.

I can also accept that there are millions of people out there who don’t care, go to work, eat their mac and cheese, read the commics and go to bed. There are many worthy causes that I do not involve my self in. If you had no calling to this topic and didn’t intervene it would seem perfectly reasonable.

The reason your posts have gained my attention is that you are involved, you are active in the discussion, and you do show a passion for the topic. I know you have something possitive to offer here and it is a bit frustrating that I can’t seem to tap into it.

**No. You can’t.

L**

 

[royal_archer]

**I said “glib and gleeful application” of hyperbole. You misread.

This child did not try to commit suicide. She got tangled and could not take enough of a breath to call for her mother. Not murder, not suicide. But I used the example as an illustration of a situation where I would expect you to apply your “glib and gleeful” name-calling in a frenzy of compassionless, tasteless finger-pointing. If you would be so gauche as to call a woman who had had an abortion a murderer, what would stop you from calling this child a pathetic retard? My focus is not on the truth of the circumstances: it’s on the absolutely reprehensible willingness to put the words to it. I may have killed my child, but you are casting a stone in pointing it out. **It’s not your story to tell.

**Limerick **

Sorry to missunderstand your story, since we were talking about an intentional act, I presumed the situation you were refering to was also an intentional act.

Calling a person a murderer would be to make commentary about their character or personality. This is why I have tried to not use such a term. What we are talking about in this thread is an act and whether a person should be able to legally choose to engage in that act. Part of that discussion has to be an open discourse about the realities and impacts of that act. If you take this discussion personally, that is not the intent, and I am sorry if you feel that way. One act does not define anyone and no one should allow themselves to feel defined by one or a small number of past acts.

 

[elts1956]

**Who’s whining? I help when someone asks for help. The asking is an indicator that a person has reached a crisis level and there is enough humility involved that he or she might actually be able to hear and understand and apply anything I have to say. That person is also free to reject what I offer.

I don’t understand having to get one’s hands all over another person’s dilemma.

Limerick**

I didn’t mean you are whining. My mind just driiiifted off at that point. Thinking of someone else. Sorry.

Offering to help someone does not mean one is getting s/his hands all over another person’t delemma. There are many ways of helping another without imposing your will on theirs.

Since we are talking about abortion, what would you do if you saw a woman crying outside an abortion clinic? Would you ignore her, or offer to console her?

 

[Arthur001]

And I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me why it’s against the law to step on a freaking turtle egg but not against the law to dismember a human baby in his mother’s womb.

Because there is a deficit of turtles, unlike people, and because the turtle-mother isn’t asking for it to stop, unlike almost all of the human mothers.

I’ve been listening to a lot of judgmental people and it’s rubbing off on me. If I’m wrong in my next sentence then I apologise in advance. I believe that you will find my answer above unsatisfactory because you were speaking for rhetorical effect, and do not want there to be an answer.