Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

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teak421 said:
What if a person is mentally ill and does not recognize that they are alive, can we kill them?
  • Michael
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Why stop there why not just kill off anyone with a double digit IQ. anyone who is in a vegatative state, a comma, or knocked unconcious.:rolleyes:
 
limerick said:
People will do what they are compelled to do, right or wrong, legal or illegal, moral or immoral. Your question revolves around the morality of the act. You are not asking a question referencing free will because, although free will can drive an individual to do things that are abhorrent to others, in its raw state it is not restricted by morality.
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Using that logic, why would it matter to you if abortion were outlawed throughout the US? That way we can have what we want and you can have your “free choice” as you have defined it in your posts here?
limerick said:
**What if the mentally ill person were killed by another mentally ill person? What if the mental illnesses were not the same? Then what? Would it have to be exactly the same mental illness, with exactly the same level of deterioration or brain damage, to call it a draw?

Limerick**
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Are you trying to say women who murder their pre-born children should not be prosecuted bocause of mental illness?
 
limerick said:
A fetus is not a rational person. However, you will find among women seeking abortion rational people who have given a great deal of thought and prayer to their dilemma and have decided to proceed…
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So do many serial killers.
 
limerick,
I just went back and read some of your prior post.
I am truly sorry for the loss of life of your child. I am sure that must have been a great deal of pain for you, and probably still is.

Has anyone ever suggested this site to you?

rachelsvineyard.org/
 
limerick said:
**
I have always understood “empathy” to mean the imaginative identification** of oneself with with another person or with a group. How can a living human being be empathetic with a fetus? Other than the fact that they are both of human origin, there is no common ground. A living human being has all senses intact and operating at full throttle, can reason, can breathe, can navigate through life. A fetus has the beginnings of these things but cannot sense pain until at least 20 weeks’ gestation, cannot reason, cannot breathe, is largely unaware of its circumstances.

Did you mean “sympathy” button"? Or “compassion button”?

Limerick
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What does pain have to do with it? a well placed bullet of propper caliber will drop someone instantly with out pain, does that make it OK?

Cannot reason? I’ve known people in their 60’s who cannot reason. Should we have open season on them?

Unaware of circumstances? This will apply to you the next moment you go to sleep. Sleep well:D

Cannot breath? Heimlich Maneuver or just kill them:confused:

Bottom line is that there is no reason any persons life whould be put in danger because of these factors.
 
limerick said:
**People will do what they are compelled to do, right or wrong, legal or illegal, moral or immoral. Your question revolves around the morality of the act. You are not asking a question referencing free will because, although free will can drive an individual to do things that are abhorrent to others, in its raw state it is not restricted by morality.

What if the mentally ill person were killed by another mentally ill person? What if the mental illnesses were not the same? Then what? Would it have to be exactly the same mental illness, with exactly the same level of deterioration or brain damage, to call it a draw?

Limerick**
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I’d have to say that I agree with royal archer on this first paragraph of yours.

If you truly believe that people will do what they are compelled to do, right or wrong, legal or illegal, moral or immoral, then why do we, in your opinon, need abortion to remain legal?

Someone, according to what you said above, would just get one anyway even if it were illegal if they felt compelled to do so.
 
allhers said:
limerick,
I just went back and read some of your prior post.
I am truly sorry for the loss of life of your child. I am sure that must have been a great deal of pain for you, and probably still is.

Has anyone ever suggested this site to you?

rachelsvineyard.org/
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**Actually, it was not traumatic. It is not currently troubling. Many, many people over the last year have suggested rachael’s vineyard to me. I wrote to the priest there just for kicks and he wrote me back and said, “What is it that you expect us to do about anything?” In other words, it is a site for practicing and conservative Catholics only.

Please visit “Fetal Pain” A Systematic Multidisciplinary Review of the Evidence", Journal of the American Medical Association**, August 24/31, 2005, Vol. 294, No. 8; Susan J. Lee, JD; Henry J. Peter Ralston, MD; Eleanor A. Drey, MD, EdM; John Colin Partridge, MD, MPH; Mark A. Rosen, MD. You can click on this link for some very enlightening facts with regard to fetal pain:

serendip.brynmawr.edu/local/scisoc/brownbag/brownbag0506/fetalpain.pdf

They cannot feel pain at 10 weeks. Nor can they wave at us via ultrasound and say, “Hi, Mom!”

Limerick
 
allhers said:
Actually, after all the research I recently have done on the above mentioned sites that I posted, one of them, and I am not sure now which said that we now know that it is at 10 weeks that a baby can feel pain.

I wouldn’t doubt that we will find out at some point that perhaps it is even earlier.

As to your other statement about empathy, (not sure who you are talking to here), but…

There are people alive today whose mothers did try to have them aborted. I am sure that they have much empathy for the preborn child.
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**They have sympathy. Not empathy.

L**
 
allhers said:
I’d have to say that I agree with royal archer on this first paragraph of yours.

If you truly believe that people will do what they are compelled to do, right or wrong, legal or illegal, moral or immoral, then why do we, in your opinon, need abortion to remain legal?

Someone, according to what you said above, would just get one anyway even if it were illegal if they felt compelled to do so.
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**Who is royal archer?

L**
 
limerick said:
**People will do what they are compelled to do, right or wrong, legal or illegal, moral or immoral. Your question revolves around the morality of the act. You are not asking a question referencing free will because, although free will can drive an individual to do things that are abhorrent to others, in its raw state it is not restricted by morality.

What if the mentally ill person were killed by another mentally ill person? What if the mental illnesses were not the same? Then what? Would it have to be exactly the same mental illness, with exactly the same level of deterioration or brain damage, to call it a draw?

Limerick**
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I have no idea what you are talking about… I merely argued that a person who does not know they are alive or aware should not be killed. I gave an example of person outside the womb.
  • Michael
 
teak421 said:
I have no idea what you are talking about… I merely argued that a person who does not know they are alive or aware should not be killed. I gave an example of person outside the womb.
  • Michael
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**
Here is your question: “What if a person is mentally ill and does not recognize that they are alive, can we kill them?” You did not ask, “Is it morally acceptable to kill them?” or “Should we kill them?” or “May we kill them?” You asked, “Can** we kill them?”

If you read my response to your post with that in mind perhaps it will make more sense to you.

Limerick
 
limerick said:
**
Here is your question: “What if a person is mentally ill and does not recognize that they are alive, can we kill them?” You did not ask, “Is it morally acceptable to kill them?” or “Should we kill them?” or “May we kill them?” You asked, “Can** we kill them?”

If you read my response to your post with that in mind perhaps it will make more sense to you.

Limerick
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You are precise. How would you answer your question above that I should have asked in my original post? Is it morally acceptable to kill them?
  • Michael
 
teak421 said:
You are precise. How would you answer your question above that I should have asked in my original post? Is it morally acceptable to kill them?
  • Michael
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**Do you want the response of a relativist?

Limerick**
 
limerick said:
**Actually, it was not traumatic. It is not currently troubling. Many, many people over the last year have suggested rachael’s vineyard to me. I wrote to the priest there just for kicks and he wrote me back and said, “What is it that you expect us to do about anything?” In other words, it is a site for practicing and conservative Catholics only.
**
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Not that I think you are disingenuous, L…

But this doesn’t at all seem like a response you’d get from a priest, whether involved in RV or any other ministry.

What exactly was the gist of this letter you wrote him “just for kicks”? And was his reply word for word as you posted above?

RV is inter-denominational, btw. Some are run in exclusively Catholic settings, but many minister to people of all faiths. This is my understanding of it, anyway.
 
SteveGC said:
Not that I think you are disingenuous, L…

But this doesn’t at all seem like a response you’d get from a priest, whether involved in RV or any other ministry.

What exactly was the gist of this letter you wrote him “just for kicks”? And was his reply word for word as you posted above?

RV is inter-denominational, btw. Some are run in exclusively Catholic settings, but many minister to people of all faiths. This is my understanding of it, anyway.
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**I cleaned up over 300 emails from my system two weeks ago, and among them was the one I wrote to rachel’s vineyard and the response I received. I told him the truth: abortion in 1971, no real feeling of having been traumatized; confession, absolution, penance, never repeating the act; that many people had recommended that website for “those troubled by an abortion” and that I wanted to know what they had to offer. I explained that I was a non-practicing Catholic who had problems with doctrine and what I perceived to be rigidity within the structure of the Catholic Church. There was nothing in my letter that I have not included in posts on CAF, nor was the attitude any more testy than usual. The response I received was tart and dismissive. I wish I had saved it. I may try writing to them again and sharing my response so you can see just how short they come up when questioned about their services and their viewpoint - seemingly that all persons involved in abortion should be self-flagellating at all times until rescued by rachel’s vineyard.

Limerick**
 
good for you,insult these catlicks…they take it on the chin and else where…pro choice…the holy mantra of the establishemt…dont ever give a pro choice lecture to a black woman who hates the public school in her neighborhood,she cant send her kid to a catlick school where they care about the kids.so instead she must grin and bear it and send her kid to the local govment scoooll…geee real choice…and obama,and biden, and mccanin and kennedy and this and that all send their kids to private schools…what the hell is the matter with youse folks…how many of our …our,what a joke…reps in congress send their kids to public schools…one…maybe two…tell me…how dumb are you,no wonder they dont respect you…good ole Al Sharpton.what a great name…orders his crew out on demand to demonstate whatever…it dont matter,pay them the usual money for protesting and they will be happy…the tee vee will pick it up and its all show biz in the streets…and poor kids suffer while the rich white kids move on up…sad soooo sad…
 
teak421 said:
I want you to respond to the question… No need to repeat because you contrusted a better one. Either answer, or move on… 🙂
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**Please explain this response. It makes no sense to me.

Actually, let me ask you this: kill them for what purpose?

L**
 
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