Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

[limerick]

Finish the sentence: I support choice.

The choice to what? Redecorate? Buy a new car? Send your kids to private school?

This is the only common sentence in the English language that ALWAYS remains unfinished because the finishing clause is unspeakable.

The choice to----?

What?

Call it what it is. Words have meaning.

**
I support a woman’s legal AND moral right to decide how to proceed when she discovers that she is pregnant, without interference or persuasion or manipulation from “loved ones”, friends, acquaintances, her neighborhood, her community, and everyone else in the wider range of humanity.** Her legal rights have been afforded her by the Supreme Court of this country. Her moral right has been given her by God in the form of free will, the ability to deliberate, to pray, to worry, to examine all alternatives and to decide what she will do in the coming months. I don’t have to tell you what her options are; you know everything. Abortion, birth and putting the baby up for adoption, birth and keeping the baby to raise. Of course, there is also birth and willingness to sell the baby, birth and willingness to kill the baby afterward, birth and abandonment.

Abortion ends the life and growth of an embryo or a fetus, one that has potential to develop into a neonate, an infant, a toddler, a child, a teenager, an adult, a senior, a geriatric, and a corpse once it is born.

You seem not to consider the “finishing clause … unspeakable”. You try to take my moral inventory every time you scream “murderer!” on the computer screen. That doesn’t mean you are accurate. It simply means you have an opinion.

Limerick

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Matthew 5 27-28 "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 21-22 "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

Eddie Mac

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Abortion

2270
Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person—among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.7

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.

2271
Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

2272
Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” "by the very commission of the offense,"and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273
The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.”

“The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”

2274
Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, “if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safeguarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence.”

2275
“One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing, the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival.”

“It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material.”

“Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity” which are unique and unrepeatable.

 

[limerick]

Matthew 5 27-28 "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Matthew 21-22 "You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.

Eddie Mac

**Are adultery in the heart and adultery in the sack equally punishable?

Matthew 21-22 does not say “anger in the heart is the same as murder”. It says that one who kills is liable to judgment and one who is angry is liable to judgment. It does not** say they are the same thing, nor does it detail the penalty for either.

Limerick

 

[limerick]

Abortion

2270
Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person—among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.7

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.

2271
Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

2272
Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” "by the very commission of the offense,"and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273
The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

“The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.”

“The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights.”

2274
Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, “if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safeguarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence.”

2275
“One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing, the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival.”

“It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material.”

“Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity” which are unique and unrepeatable.

**Aside from the fact that you fail to document your source(s), what’s your point?

L**

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

**
I support a woman’s legal AND moral right to decide how to proceed when she discovers that she is pregnant, without interference or persuasion or manipulation from “loved ones”, friends, acquaintances, her neighborhood, her community, and everyone else in the wider range of humanity.** Her legal rights have been afforded her by the Supreme Court of this country. Her moral right has been given her by God in the form of free will, the ability to deliberate, to pray, to worry, to examine all alternatives and to decide what she will do in the coming months. I don’t have to tell you what her options are; you know everything. Abortion, birth and putting the baby up for adoption, birth and keeping the baby to raise. Of course, there is also birth and willingness to sell the baby, birth and willingness to kill the baby afterward, birth and abandonment.

Abortion ends the life and growth of an embryo or a fetus, one that has potential to develop into a neonate, an infant, a toddler, a child, a teenager, an adult, a senior, a geriatric, and a corpse once it is born.

You seem not to consider the “finishing clause … unspeakable”. You try to take my moral inventory every time you scream “murderer!” on the computer screen. That doesn’t mean you are accurate. It simply means you have an opinion.

Limerick

No. This is not opinion, but fact.

Abortion ends the life of not a ‘clump of cells,’ nor a potential toddler, but an innocent human being.

Some issues are indeed just that simple, and just that black and white. And may God have mercy on us all.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

**Aside from the fact that you fail to document your source(s), what’s your point?

L**

Catechism of the Catholic Church is the source. I assumed you knew what the CCC was and would recignize the numbering structure etc. This is a Catholic site.

The Church’s teaching on abortion is quoted.

Eddie Mac

 

[FanChan]

**Aside from the fact that you fail to document your source(s), what’s your point?

L**

The numbers in the post is the documentation of the source. The numbers refer to paragraphs in the Catechism. Within each paragraph there are quotes from the Bible and various encyclicals. It’s quite simple to check an online catechism to learn precisely what sources those are.

Oh yeah. You put me on ignore, so I guess you won’t see this. Oh well.

 

[Eddie_Mac]

**Are adultery in the heart and adultery in the sack equally punishable?

Matthew 21-22 does not say “anger in the heart is the same as murder”. It says that one who kills is liable to judgment and one who is angry is liable to judgment. It does not** say they are the same thing, nor does it detail the penalty for either.

Limerick

I am not the judge so I do not kbow, but Jesus said that the two are the same and He will be doing the judging. Do you feel up to the challenge?

My examination of conscience guides the Fifth commandment includes anger and murder. If I am angry with my neighbor then I treat it as a sin and seek reconciliation. I am not going to take the chance.

Besides, after I am angry I need to be reconciled. I cannot seek forgiveness if I do not forgive. The Judge has warned me of that, and it is in The Lord’s Prayer.

You do know The Lord’s Prayer, don’t you?

“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

Discerning one’s sins is a gift of the Spirit.

Never mind. I have tried explaining that to you before.

Eddie Mac

 

[limerick]

No. This is not opinion, but fact.

Abortion ends the life of not a ‘clump of cells,’ nor a potential toddler, but an innocent human being.

Some issues are indeed just that simple, and just that black and white. And may God have mercy on us all.

**I did not claim that the fetus was not human. That fits in nicely with your black and white.

L**

 

[limerick]

I am not the judge so I do not kbow, but Jesus said that the two are the same and He will be doing the judging. Do you feel up to the challenge?

Where does Jesus say murder and anger are the same? And what challenge are you referring to?

My examination of conscience guides the Fifth commandment includes anger and murder. If I am angry with my neighbor then I treat it as a sin and seek reconciliation. I am not going to take the chance.

You are not going to take what chance? The chance that you will take action against your neighbor or the chance that you will be punished for your anger? Let’s be specific.

Besides, after I am angry I need to be reconciled. I cannot seek forgiveness if I do not forgive. The Judge has warned me of that, and it is in The Lord’s Prayer.

**Your anger is your problem, not your neighbor’s. If you are angry it is because you allowed yourself to get angry. Your neighbor is not culpable; therefore, you need not forgive what he has not done. Your conversation at this point is with God, not with your neighbor. **

You do know The Lord’s Prayer, don’t you?

(hauteur)

“Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

And when you trespass against yourself? As in troubles of your own making?

Discerning one’s sins is a gift of the Spirit.

Never mind. I have tried explaining that to you before.

Epic Fail.

Eddie Mac

 

[limerick]

Catechism of the Catholic Church is the source. I assumed you knew what the CCC was and would recignize the numbering structure etc. This is a Catholic site.

The Church’s teaching on abortion is quoted.

Eddie Mac

**
And this?:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.” 7

And this?:

“My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.” (no reference number)

These are taken verbatim from the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Or are they lifted from bible text?

Limerick**

 

[Eddie_Mac]

**
And this?:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.” 7

And this?:

“My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.” (no reference number)

These are taken verbatim from the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Or are they lifted from bible text?

Limerick**

Quit picking nits. You know those are scriptural quotes. The fact that I didn’t cite all sources is irrelevant. Read the CCC.

 

[allhers]

**
And this?:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.” 7

And this?:

“My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.” (no reference number)

These are taken verbatim from the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Or are they lifted from bible text?

Limerick**

They are actually written in the CCC and at the bottom of the page it lists the parts of the Bible from which those are taken.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.” 72 (it says 72 not 7 as you posted, which may have been an original typo when first posted.)

Footnotes at the bottom of the page for that say this:
Jer1:5
Job10:8-12
Ps22:10-11

and for the second one

“My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.” (in the CCC it says 73)

Footnotes for 73 say this:
Ps139:15

 

[limerick]

They are actually written in the CCC and at the bottom of the page it lists the parts of the Bible from which those are taken.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.” 72 (it says 72 not 7 as you posted, which may have been an original typo when first posted.)

Footnotes at the bottom of the page for that say this:
Jer1:5
Job10:8-12
Ps22:10-11

and for the second one

“My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.” (in the CCC it says 73)

Footnotes for 73 say this:
Ps139:15

**
How kind you to sweep up the mess.

Limerick**

 

[Eddie_Mac]

Jesus states that lust and adultery are the same. Adultery is grave matter. Thus, lust is grave matter.

Every time I have discussed my anger with a priest it has been grave matter.

Since murder is grave matter, the Church holds murder and anger to violate the Fifth commandment, therefore, anger is grave matter and will be judged accordingly.

Are you willing to challenge Jesus on how He will judge?

I am not taking the chance of dying with unconfessed sin on my soul. I confess my anger.

You really do not understand the concept of giving and receiving forgiveness do you?

Eddie Mac

 

[Eddie_Mac]

They are actually written in the CCC and at the bottom of the page it lists the parts of the Bible from which those are taken.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.” 72 (it says 72 not 7 as you posted, which may have been an original typo when first posted.)

Footnotes at the bottom of the page for that say this:
Jer1:5
Job10:8-12
Ps22:10-11

and for the second one

“My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.” (in the CCC it says 73)

Footnotes for 73 say this:
Ps139:15

It was nice of you but she really does not care, as evidenced by her followup quote of your post.

Eddie Mac

 

[limerick]

Jesus states that lust and adultery are the same. Adultery is grave matter. Thus, lust is grave matter.

Every time I have discussed my anger with a priest it has been grave matter.

Since murder is grave matter, the Church holds murder and anger to violate the Fifth commandment, therefore, anger is grave matter and will be judged accordingly.

Are you willing to challenge Jesus on how He will judge?

I am not taking the chance of dying with unconfessed sin on my soul. I confess my anger.

You really do not understand the concept of giving and receiving forgiveness do you?

Eddie Mac

*"Since murder is grave matter, the Church holds murder and anger to violate the Fifth commandment, therefore, anger is grave matter and will be judged accordingly.

Are you willing to challenge Jesus on how He will judge?"*

**I am not satisfied that you have interpreted these quotations correctly and so I am willing to challenge you on where you connect the dots between murder being a grave matter and anger being an equally grave matter; or have I misunderstood you?

I understand the concept of forgiveness, but I don’t find it very practical. To offer it has never opened my heart or cleared my conscience or abated my anger. It has more often than not opened the door to further abuses from those I would seek to forgive. And I have found on this forum that God forgives, but only if we subject ourselves to ridicule, to torment, to judgment and scorn through specially-appointed Evaluators on CAF.

It’s looking more and more like the solution to life as I know it is to cash out and hold my breath until it all goes away.

Limerick **

Edit: Add to that “mindreaders” on CAF. What a gifted bunch.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Perhaps a little more charity and humility is needed here.

Look what is written in the sand then look what is in your hand. If there’s a rock maybe it’s best to put it down.

In the end, God Knows.

 

[CMP2]

**
I support a woman’s legal AND moral right to decide how to proceed when she discovers that she is pregnant, without interference or persuasion or manipulation from “loved ones”, friends, acquaintances, her neighborhood, her community, and everyone else in the wider range of humanity.** Her legal rights have been afforded her by the Supreme Court of this country. Her moral right has been given her by God in the form of free will, the ability to deliberate, to pray, to worry, to examine all alternatives and to decide what she will do in the coming months. I don’t have to tell you what her options are; you know everything. Abortion, birth and putting the baby up for adoption, birth and keeping the baby to raise. Of course, there is also birth and willingness to sell the baby, birth and willingness to kill the baby afterward, birth and abandonment.

Abortion ends the life and growth of an embryo or a fetus, one that has potential to develop into a neonate, an infant, a toddler, a child, a teenager, an adult, a senior, a geriatric, and a corpse once it is born.

You seem not to consider the “finishing clause … unspeakable”. You try to take my moral inventory every time you scream “murderer!” on the computer screen. That doesn’t mean you are accurate. It simply means you have an opinion.

Limerick

Two choices still remain and can’t be erased with lots of words and justification.
Pro Death or Pro Life. To support Death is to support evil. Only the road to life is good. Death is inevitable when the human person wears out, or through accident or illness. Abortion is not. It is a choice to kill. To make something alive and human dead. Period. No judgement or opinion here. Just facts.