Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

[c659smith]

There are two aspects of the fight to save these children, the moral one and the secular one. While I agree that forcing women to see these movies would be a good way to discourage them from murdering their children, the fact is that in teh secular side of our society groups like planned parrenthood are actively trying to promote abortion and will not allow the movies in to interfere with their profits. While in the moral fight it is better to address the sanctity of live regardless of age, in the secular fight we have to realize that some babies are seen by secular society of more worthy of saving. It is best that we enlist thes secular resources to assist us in fighting these aspects of the battle than to be constantly engaging them in the areas of the secular battle where we have more opposition. This is not to say that those who seek to secular protection of life at all levels should not dedicate their resources. For instance, in WWII if an ally were only willing to help us push the Germans out of France but was unwilling to help us defeat Germany over all. Should we have accepted their help in the first aspects of the campaign or should we have fought them also since they would not help us through the entirety of the war?

There are millions out there who only oppose abortion in the third trimester. By enlisting their help we may be able to establish a foot hold in the secular fight to save babies. From there we work on the next step.

There are also those who feel mothers should not go to jail for killing their babies but are willing to accept other punitive measures We should use these people as a foot hold to support the fight.

What I fear is happening is that we have many potential allies (for this staqe of the fight) that are turned against us because so many are advocating the most extreme of punishment for the most extreme cases. When we say that a rape victim using the abortion pill (aka emergency controceptive) is the same as a mother killing her newborn, We risk many who do not have the same purist moral perspective fearing that we are advocating that the rape victim get the same punishment as the other mother who killed her child. Many in our secular society can not accept this. The hard message to get out is that while these are moraly equivalent, there may be rational to treat these differently from a secular law perspective.

But if asked or in a discussion regarding the child that was conceived because of a rape then we are called to ask what did the child do to receive such a sentence.

That there are alternatives such as adoption.

I truly commend you for being in the fight for life.

Anyway the truth can get out is great.

Just be careful not to fall for the pro choice advocates realm of the first trimester is fine to abort and is less of an evil. This is one of their diversionary tactics on the issue and while pro-life advocates fight on the third trimester. Pro choice laws and case law is being secured for the first 6 months on abortion rights.

We all have different ways to fight for the baby in the womb but none of us should lose perspective that all human life is worthy of defending.

Thank You for all your efforts in the pro-life arena and God Bless

 

[MarysGirls]

I believe several things:

1. Abortion is wrong.
2. The government should not incarcerate a woman who has one.
3. The government should incarcerate the person responsible for performing the abortion.
4. The Federal and State governments should provide massive assistance of all types to those who cannot support themselves during pregnancy.
5. The present POTUS should transfer funds he has denied to well pregnancy clinics and has allotted more to abortion clinics here and abroad and redistribute said funds to the above. Help the women.
6. I also believe abortion should be illegal. The legality of abortion rips the moral fiber of this nation apart.
7. I wouldn’t complain a bit if my money were spent for LIFE instead of being forcibly taken from me to support abortion.

:yup: I agree.

Now if all of us could go out and do something about it instead of just complaining, that would be great. (Though, please don’t misunderstand this statement. I realize that at least some of you probably are doing something about it and talking about it is important.)

 

[elts1956]

Using your ill idea of what is right and what is wrong, you are either pro-war, or anti-war! I seriously doubt that anyone is 100% on one side of the issue. The war stance kills innocent people as well. I think there is a gross oversimplification what is being stated.

You can classify me all you like. But it will be very difficult for someone to “fight” for their cause telling someone they are wrong and they will never be right. I know what I believe, and I feel that perhaps my intentions and beliefs are not properly being stated. I’ll sleep and pray for the right words.

Question:

If I say that I am pro-choice, and do not rally or tell people that it is wrong, unless they ask, am I really pro-choice? Sin of omission. You know abortion is wrong, yet do nothing to help eliminate the evil.Lastly, I truly hope there is not one more abortion.

God Bless,

Revert TSIEG

 

[elts1956]

Using your ill idea of what is right and what is wrong, you are either pro-war, or anti-war! According to Church teaching, War is not an Intrinsic evil, but an issue of Prudential Judgement. Abortion IS an Intrinsic Evil and therefore is NOT negotiable.

I seriously doubt that anyone is 100% on one side of the issue. The war stance kills innocent people as well. I think there is a gross oversimplification what is being stated.

You can classify me all you like. But it will be very difficult for someone to “fight” for their cause telling someone they are wrong and they will never be right. I know what I believe, and I feel that perhaps my intentions and beliefs are not properly being stated. I’ll sleep and pray for the right words.

Question:

If I say that I am pro-choice, and do not rally or tell people that it is wrong, unless they ask, am I really pro-choice?

Lastly, I truly hope there is not one more abortion.

God Bless,

Revert TSIEG

At least in a war a person has a legitimate chance of finding safety and surviving. What defensive capabilities does an unborn child have except for those already born to advocate on their behalf? As the bishops and the Pope himself have said, not all issues are of equal value. The right to life supersedes the war debate. If you want proof just look at the numbers. Fifty million dead in the US so far since 1973. And that number is rising.

I don’t doubt with a fresh mind you’ll introduce more sordid lines of the abortion apologists. Sin can often be so beautifully described one can easily forget it’s a sin in the first place.

I’ll conclude my involvement with this thread with a heartfelt plea. If you really want to be a Catholic, work and pray to be a faithful Catholic in your entire being leaving no room for pessimism. As John Paul II said, “We are an Easter people and Alleluia is our song!”

 

[elts1956]

My feelings on abortion are as follows:
No human being should be discarded by death. However, given the current circumstances of either zero tolerance or full 24 week fetus’s being murdered it may be that we need to find a way to save, at least the babies who are aware that they live. Do we really know how much awareness the babies have that are younger than 24 weeks? Are we sure that five, ten, years from now we won’t find out differently?.

The cruelty of later term abortions is intolerable but we will not be able to stop this area of torture without taking into reasonable consideration the idea that an embryo has no awareness of life and set, at the very least, a reasonable termination age. What age is reasonable to die? Uh, huh, then when we realize, “discover” that the smallest baby is aware, feels pain etc., we will have to fight the fight all over again. These children, no matter how small, are human and deserve to be treated with dignity, protection and acknowledged as such.

Given our belief that we are immortal souls, Given to each of us at conception. perhaps we should aim to protect the children who have reached an age of being able to interact with the outside world. It is my understanding that the nervous system begins transmitting signals to the brain at around 12 weeks. That gives a rape victom, a deformed and unviable fetus, a high risk pregnancy where the mother could be in danger, or uncountable circumstances the option of terminating in the spirit of faith and mercy.Faith and mercy?/ Surely you jest.

This stalmate is causing unbelievable agony and pain where perhaps a compromise would at least save the children who are too far along to terminate with any mercy, and would save countless mothers the agony and guilt of later realization of what they have done.

And what does an abortion at any time during gestation do to the baby?

 

[HappyRevert]

You may ask, what does this have to do with pro-choice/pro-life…well laws!! Most conservatives believe in less regulation, less legal and national control. Why must THIS issue be forced in law. Jesus, as far as I know, did not pushed for laws! Yes, he spoke of the moral code of God, but he did not say to get legislation out for prohibitions. Jesus said to love, not to hate. What kind of Catholics are we pushing this kind of hate, and it is hate.

I know abortions are wrong, and I hope all of you reading this feel the same. My questions are, why do we know it is wrong, but others think that it is not wrong. I don’t think anyone, regardless of political or religious preference, think abortions are ok, many just do not want it to be illegal by legal means. I believe, as stated on previous posts, that we need to SHOW, not TELL these women the affects of their decisions.

I am all for pushing for legislation of showing sonograms, telling the father, and in underage situations, telling the parents. I will vote on all these right now. But overturning Rowe v. Wade is not feasible… it is like telling my son to hit a home run out of Yankee stadium off a 100MPH pitch and he is almost 5, not going to happen Be realist in your/our goals and take small steps, not go straight for the the end result. It is what happened in all revolutions, look at the civil rights movements in the US. It took small, all-be-it, loud steps.

I am pro-choice, not pro-abortion as some like to title it. I am open minded, and I have not yet seen an argument that states we should make decisions for others to change my mind to pro-life. Most of the pro-lifers I have spoken to are too close minded and condescending that I shut down after less that a min. I hope the responses trying to sway me are not condescending and have an open minded nature to them so as to be not augmentative in nature.

Revert TSIEG

I’m intrigued by your question “Why do we know it is wrong?”. I hope it is obvious that we know it is wrong because we all accept the science behind it. The embryo/fetus is a separate living human being that will never again exist. It is demonstrable through science that they have a unique human genetic code and they are definitively alive (although frail). Therefore, all pro-lifers follow that this very frail unique human that can never again exist should be provided protection so that their unique selves can come to the proper fruition through Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness.

The follow on questions of “but others think that it is not wrong” is more complex. I completely believe that most people have good intentions. I actually believe that abortionists have good intentions. They think they are saving the lives of young women from being turned upside down by facing the consequences of their behavior (normally but not 100% of the time). Unfortunately for them, they cannot deny through science that the embryo and fetus are living human beings. That would be impossible because it is a fact. However, they say that the girl/woman’s right to control her own body is more important than the baby’s life. That’s why we are not communicating. It comes down to that one thing. Pro lifers categorically (and correctly) state that the baby’s life is more important that a girl/woman’s right to control her body. The pro-choicers say that nothing should over-ride a woman’s right to control her body, even the life of her baby.

The insanity starts when the pro-choicers decide that they need to shore up their position so take ridiculous stands. For instance, there is never, ever a need to abort after the 22nd week, for any reason EVER. If there is a health issue, simply give birth to the baby and try to save him/her (I have friends who have had to deliver extremely early for health reasons and the babies survived). The health statistics for Ireland put out by the UN prove that pro-life is healthier for the women as well as the babies. c-fam.org/publications/id.448/pub_detail.asp

The fact that pro-choicers are trying to prevent parental notification. There is no other medical procedure that you can do to a child without parental notification. How is that rational? The child’s physical health is in danger (from the procedure and increase suicide risk) as well as her long term emotional being (what if it were caused by date rape and the girl too ashamed to admit it? As well as the obvious ramifications of killing your baby).

Unfortunately, if you are pro-choice at all, you are pro-abortion. By being pro-choice you are saying that a woman’s ability to control her body trumps the value of the life her body was made to protect at any phase of gestation. The truly sad part, is I can see in your writings that you are kind and sympathetic. We all hate to hear of cases where girls or women have been raped and then they face the consequences of their attacker’s behavior.

I have to end with my philosophical ramblings. I was and am a feminist. I believe that we are entitled to equal work and pay. However, somewhere along the line feminist started meaning “wants to be like a man” as if being a man is the height of human creation and woman is somehow lower. We have devalued our own worth as protectors and nurturers. Women were made to create life, not destroy it. Historically, we have fought for the weak and unheard, but now that role has been debased by our own volition. Women do not stand for violence against the weak. We never did in the past, so I don’t understand why we accept it now.

 

[elts1956]

My feelings on abortion are as follows:
No human being should be discarded by death. However, given the current circumstances of either zero tolerance or full 24 week fetus’s being murdered it may be that we need to find a way to save, at least the babies who are aware that they live.
The cruelty of later term abortions is intolerable but we will not be able to stop this area of torture without taking into reasonable consideration the idea that an embryo has no awareness of life and set, at the very least, a reasonable termination age.
Given our belief that we are immortal souls, perhaps we should aim to protect the children who have reached an age of being able to interact with the outside world. It is my understanding that the nervous system begins transmitting signals to the brain at around 12 weeks. That gives a rape victom, a deformed and unviable fetus, a high risk pregnancy where the mother could be in danger, or uncountable circumstances the option of terminating in the spirit of faith and mercy.
This stalmate is causing unbelievable agony and pain where perhaps a compromise would at least save the children who are too far along to terminate with any mercy, and would save countless mothers the agony and guilt of later realization of what they have done.

If by saying this you mean a woman makes a decision because they had sex, let me remind you of FORCED sex. No they don’t. That 9 year old GIRL in Brazil did not make that decision. Women raped, VIOLENTLY violated, don’t make that decision.

I am politically pro-choice. Only because I don’t want anyone other than MY Church and faith telling me what to do.

To take away rights is a slippery slope I do not want to go down.

Say and admit the truth. Until you take FULL responsibilty for your decisions, you will never know if they are right, or wrong. To me it is evident you are not only politically pro choice, but also morally pro choice. Otherwise you would not be pro choice. Also the Church, if Catholic, did not give you permission to vote for a pro choice candidate.

 

[elts1956]

Yeah yeah, I’ve heard it all before. Still hasn’t changed my mind.

ETA:

Usually people who like make comments like “woman made her choice” in regards to the pro-choice issue, they are usually assuming that women who are having an abortion were willing sex partners. I wanted remind people that is not always the case.

Secondly, many women who choose to have abortions are not doing it willy nilly. Many are going to do it no matter what. I’d rather not have them die. Where as, you would.

In an ideal world, we wouldn’t have to worry about these things. We are not, however, in an ideal world. Mostly, I vote pro-CHOICE because I do not wish to have any particular group of people deign to tell me what to do. If we had it our way, everyone would be Catholic, we’d live in an ideal world, and this wouldn’t be an issue.

However, this is not the case, unfortunately. Being pro-choice doesn’t mean that you want everyone to have an abortion.

It may be that the Catholic issue on abortions will never be readily accepted by the population as a whole. It may also be that we may need to address this issue from a human standpoint because whenever faih or religion is involved in public issues it generally ends in stalmate or war with both sides unable to compromise. It has been proven time and again that when abortions are unavailable, mostly young teenage girls find themselves in butcher shops, dying along with their babies in a state of mortal sin. At least a million, or more a year, right? Yes, abortions are awful. Birth control for those who do not have sufficient information to curtail their promiscuity, those who are addicted to drugs and other vice, those who have been discarded early in their childhoods without faith or family, will continue to find themselves pregnant with no ability or will to complete bringing a soul into their version of life.
Their are great evils and lesser evils. Any large job require a beginning. Lets start where we can make a difference. I believe that if we begin where we can, the Lord will light the pathway and that light will remain lit by our successes, each life saved has much more value than no lives saved because we refuse to start in the most obvious place available.

 

[elts1956]

TWINKLERS<<We cannot, at this time anyway, know for certain at what embryonic age a human feels pain or fear, but we do know that a 4-6 month old fetus does indeed have a fully formed body, brain and nervous system and can feel pain and fear. It >>

Not to be rude, but I would like to know where you got your information on a fetus feeling fear - I’ve read some fairly unbiased, convincing arguments on pain but never, ever heard a non biased, convincing argument on a fetus dealing with or feeling psycological issues such as fear.

There is a video called The Silent Scream. I don’t know the age of the unborn baby, but when the abortionist invaded the woman’s womb with an instrument, the baby tried to move away. When the abortionist started cutting, the baby opened its mouth and looked as though it was screaming. The abortionist viewed the video after the “surgical procedure” and became a very vocal supporter of Pro Life. Maybe if you go to www.silentscream.com you can find it, or yahoo it.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Also the Church, if Catholic, did not give you permission to vote for a pro choice candidate.

No one needs permission from the Church to cast a vote for their candidate of choice.

 

[elts1956]

No one needs permission from the Church to cast a vote for their candidate of choice.

If you read the poster’s post that I was answering, you will see s/he was saying she listened only to her Church, but voted for bo. I suppose I should have said, the Church doesn’t agree with voting for a candidate who has a pro abortion platform instead of using the word permission. Mea Culpa.

And you are right, no one needed “permission” from the Church to vote for a candidate of their choosing. BUT one must vote in accordance with Church teaching, or be guilty of sin. Whether Mortal/Grave, or Venial I don’t know. That isn’t for me to judge.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

And you are right, no one needed “permission” from the Church to vote for a candidate of their choosing. BUT one must vote in accordance with Church teaching, or be guilty of sin.

And that doesn’t sit well with me.

 

[elts1956]

And that doesn’t sit well with me.

I’m afraid I can’t do anything to help you out. If one is Catholic, one listens to the teachings of the Church. One of the problems in today’s society is that many people believe they don’t have to answer to an authority higher than their own conscience and will. Even if one professes no belief in a Religion, one is still bound by moral laws. One still has a responsiblility to try to be in accord with what is the ultimate best decision for humanity. Many cannot see beyond their face for their nose.

 

[c659smith]

Has any pro-choice advocate watched the film silent scream?

It is easily accessile on the internet and is free.

This video explains and shows through ultra sound a fully formed first triamester baby in the womb.

This video then tells of the development of the first triamester baby Approx. 12 weeks.

This video will explain how the abortionist will gain entry into the cervix.

This video will then show an abortion taking place on this 12 week baby from the abortionist view and his gaining access to the cervix along with the tools used and compleing the abortion and then the actual babies view of being destroyed.

This video of this actual abortion surpasses any horror movie one has ever seen. How one can possibly be pro-choice after this video?

I just cannot imagine that mankind coud be so cruel and un-moving.

I just cannot imagine a medical doctor promising to do not harm could complete such a procedure.

If you are pro-choicer in any fashion than I implore you to watch this film and make a sound, educated, and humane decision on weither this is what you want to be aligned with.

 

[royal_archer]

I believe several things:

1. Abortion is wrong.
2. The government should not incarcerate a woman who has one.
3. The government should incarcerate the person responsible for performing the abortion.
4. The Federal and State governments should provide massive assistance of all types to those who cannot support themselves during pregnancy.
5. The present POTUS should transfer funds he has denied to well pregnancy clinics and has allotted more to abortion clinics here and abroad and redistribute said funds to the above. Help the women.
6. I also believe abortion should be illegal. The legality of abortion rips the moral fiber of this nation apart.
7. I wouldn’t complain a bit if my money were spent for LIFE instead of being forcibly taken from me to support abortion.

You may want to replace 4 with an effort to promote abstinance. and personal accountability.

We do not want to further the proliferation of professional wefare moms. Instead we need to hold Moms and Dads accountable for their actions.

 

[ceciliatherese]

You may want to replace 4 with an effort to promote abstinance. and personal accountability.

We do not want to further the proliferation of professional wefare moms. Instead we need to hold Moms and Dads accountable for their actions.

sometimes a couple is trying to be responsible by using contraception while having sex. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always work.
Do you have any statistics that shows that teaching abstinence actually works?

 

[royal_archer]

sometimes a couple is trying to be responsible by using contraception while having sex. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always work.
Do you have any statistics that shows that teaching abstinence actually works?

Throughout history abstiance has been proven to be 100% successfull except for one notable case.

Having sex when one is not in a position to welcome a child is never responsible.

 

[elts1956]

You may want to replace 4 with an effort to promote abstinance. and personal accountability.

We do not want to further the proliferation of professional wefare moms. Instead we need to hold Moms and Dads accountable for their actions.

That’s a good thought. Abstinance worked 99% of the time up til the sixties. My logic says it should work again.

 

[twinklers]

Being that I desire to stop abortions, I also feel that abortions are the final result of abuses and addictions. Keeping this in mind, we must treat the toxin that creates these situations if we are to have any hope of ending abortions. Death comes from disease. We must treat the disease. Intolerance and mudslinging against women who are in the last stages of the disease of abortion is taking a backwards approach. We must reach the girls and women who are in the grips of addiction and abuses of both mind and body.
Yes, there are abortions for the simple reason of not complicating an otherwise good life, but the vast majority of abortions are performed on very sick people who have been molested and who have succumbed to both addiction and violence. They do not have the benifit of a safe home, a warm bed, a congregation of fellowship and comraderie which we enjoy. Armchair warriors everywhere, no true compassion, only a one-sided cause which does not accomodate the true state of affairs. Are we ignoring the mothers here? Are we the ones who are justifying rape and incest by targeting only the women? Do the men involed have any sin here, or just the victoms of lust and treachery?
Are we going to enter into the prisons where (some of) the rapists and child molesters reside and accuse them of creating children who are unwanted and without any means of support? Are we aware that unwanted children become future rapists and addicted criminals? NO, not all of them but a good amount do not escape their envirnment. If we are going to be advocates for these children than we must also advocate for the women who are suffering at the hands of men who are completely removed from this battle. Lets include them in our strategy, before the battle can be won we must eliminate the cause and create a place where rapists, child molesters, abusive men and dealers of addiction tremble with fear, not their victoms.

 

[ceciliatherese]

Throughout history abstiance has been proven to be 100% successfull except for one notable case.

Having sex when one is not in a position to welcome a child is never responsible.

I mean teaching abstinence in schools, to our children.

I don’t think you’re being fair when you say if a person can’t support a child and has sex anyway it is irresponsible. A lot of people (mostly who are not Catholic) have been told by Planned Parenthood, etc. that birth control is almost completely fail proof. Since they believe that sex can be used for pleasure apart from reproduction, they have it, using birth control. Women who are not in a position to welcome a child (economic circumstances, etc.) see this as as having responsible sex, because they are not risking becoming pregnant because they’re on birth control (they believe).
Though this is wrong and unnatural, many people do not see it as such, mostly because of the untruths that the media and reproductive rights groups spread around. So even though these women are deceived into thinking something isn’t wrong, they are trying their best to be responsible (most of them.)