Anybody out there "pro-choice"?

[ntenaglia]

If so, perhaps you can explain something to me. (Understand that I’m gonna be hard to convince… I’m pro-life in every circumstance…)

Can you please clear up a mystery for me, and tell me what makes sense about this?
acts17verse28.blogspot.com/2009/05/wheres-sense-in-that.html.

I haven’t read all the posts on this, but I’m probably in the minority here. Pro-choice does not automatically mean pro-abortion. It means that the pregnant woman has many choices, some that surprisingly don’t involve abortion. Pro-choice means that the pregnant woman can choose to keep the baby, she can choose to put the baby up for adoption, or she can choose to terminate the pregnancy.

I got pregnant 35 years ago when I was a senior in high school. I chose to keep the baby and marry the father of the baby. For the next 20 years after that choice he beat me regularly and abused me emotionally and verbally as well. In hindsight I should have kept the baby, terminated the relationship.

I’ve known a few women who have chosen to terminate the pregnancy. I will say that personally I don’t think I could have done that. I do know that it was not a decision made lightly. They went to counselling, explored other options, and cried afterward. Some have even doubted if they made the right choice. I just tell them that God doesn’t let you make a wrong choice. If they learn something from the choice (and this goes for any choice on any subject), then take that lesson and carry it in your heart. Quite often I’ve seen this decision portrayed as being made very flippantly, along the lines of what dress to wear or what color nail polish. It’s not an easy decision. Some women and teenagers feel that it is the best decision not just for them, but also for the baby. Have you spent much time around abused children? It’s not good. It makes a great case for some women not being allowed to be mothers (they’re that biologically only).

This whole issue has always reminded me of the OT story of Job. My favorite part is when Job’s friends are telling him that all his problems are because he has offended God and God’s response is to ask who are they to speak for God? If anyone who has made the choice to terminate a pregnancy offends God, then that’s between that soul and God at the end of her life. They’ll have to figure out how to make it right. Not anyone else.

Now I’ll put my soapbox away and get back to work.

 

[orignal]

I want to say that I a pro-choice, but only from the political perspective. I, myself, would never want any woman I know to have an abortion. My wife and I feel the same way. Although we would never do it ourselves, what right do we have to give a vote that passes legislation.

It is a very complex subject for many people. I believe that education is the key to getting this whole thing back in control. I believe that if we have a more inclusive attitude, we can help these women and show the there are alternatives as opposed to be so judgemental.

Lastly, I just have to say that it is not our right to pass judgement on anyone. God gave us all free will and everyone will one day have to answer to our creator. I just pray that the lord helps those who are lost and show them that they too can live the life he intended.

REVERT TSIEG

Hitler’s Holocaust of innocent Jews, Christians, Handicapped, “useless mouths”, ect. was ‘politically’ justifiable – at least by Hitler and his henchmen. Are you saying it would have been politically inept for Germans to pass legislation to shut down the murder mills? Perhaps the Allied Nations should have stayed home, minded their own business, not interfered on Hitler’s ‘choice’. Perhaps the many complex and pseudo circumstantial elements made Hitler’s politically correct actions justifiable?

Few people have trouble decrying Hitler’s actions during the Holocaust, yet when it comes to abortion their reaction is clouded and watered down – even know they admit the unborn child is just as worthy of life as any human after birth. Thank God most people are still clear headed enough to recognize the abhorrent nature of what happened nearly seventy years ago. I suppose the greatest sociological difference between then and now is the people who thought the Holocaust was legitimate were in the minority and localized to a large extant geographically, today the pro-abortion mentality has perverted the human intellect in every corner of the world. And many believe we have advanced in intellectual integrity…

I have yet to meet a pro-lifer that passes judgment on a pregnant woman or a woman who has had an abortion, that is reserved for God alone (I agree with you there). However, it is absolutely alright to pass judgment on the ‘act’. This difference is readily confused - to the detriment of those who would otherwise be healthy mothers who could have lovingly offered their babies for adoption, had abortion never been legalized.

---

Recommended reading for people on both sides of the issue: Three Approaches to Abortion, by Peter Kreeft. – clarifies the positions, no dancing around the issue, no stale talking points

 

[ntenaglia]

It is the same. The pro “choicer” says it is acceptable for the law to allow killing. That is support for abortion.

Why would they concede to an untruth?

There is a big difference between someone smoking, which is not intrinsically evil, and allowing another to kill an innocent person.

Would you hold that some person claiming the government should allow rape as being pro choice on rape?

If one holds a view that the innocent should not be protected by the state one is holding a view that contradicts the CCC.

But doesn’t second-hand smoke kill innocent people?

 

[Palm_Tree]

I haven’t read all the posts on this, but I’m probably in the minority here. Pro-choice does not automatically mean pro-abortion. It means that the pregnant woman has many choices, some that surprisingly don’t involve abortion. Pro-choice means that the pregnant woman can choose to keep the baby, she can choose to put the baby up for adoption, or she can choose to terminate the pregnancy.
…
I’ve known a few women who have chosen to terminate the pregnancy. I will say that personally I don’t think I could have done that. I do know that it was not a decision made lightly. They went to counselling, explored other options, and cried afterward. Some have even doubted if they made the right choice. I just tell them that God doesn’t let you make a wrong choice. If they learn something from the choice (and this goes for any choice on any subject), then take that lesson and carry it in your heart. Quite often I’ve seen this decision portrayed as being made very flippantly, along the lines of what dress to wear or what color nail polish. It’s not an easy decision. Some women and teenagers feel that it is the best decision not just for them, but also for the baby. Have you spent much time around abused children? It’s not good. It makes a great case for some women not being allowed to be mothers (they’re that biologically only).

This whole issue has always reminded me of the OT story of Job. My favorite part is when Job’s friends are telling him that all his problems are because he has offended God and God’s response is to ask who are they to speak for God? If anyone who has made the choice to terminate a pregnancy offends God, then that’s between that soul and God at the end of her life. They’ll have to figure out how to make it right. Not anyone else.

Now I’ll put my soapbox away and get back to work.

A mother of an 8-year-old boy has choices as well. She could choose to take a gun and blow his head off, she could choose to keep her 8-year-old boy, or she could choose to put him up for adoption. And yeah, if a mother decides she is going to take gun a blow his head off, off course that is not a decision made lightly.

 

[ntenaglia]

A mother of an 8-year-old boy has choices as well. She could choose to take a gun and blow his head off, she could choose to keep her 8-year-old boy, or she could choose to put him up for adoption. And yeah, if a mother decides she is going to take gun a blow his head off, off course that is not a decision made lightly.

And your point is what??

 

[qaz]

Jesus understands everything in our lives We are always wiser with hindsight and your own life experience makes you more compassionate. It also shows the need for greater teaching of the spiritual foundation needed for marriage so people do not make unhappy choices. The Church has a duty to make Catholic marriage less easy to obtain Too many couples go into marriage with little understanding of their own compatability.I believe too given that some people were allowed to marry to easily without any true understanding of its sacramentality their should be a rethink of annulment procedures to allow greater compasion ans speedier resolution of cases where one spouse entered into the marriage with noreal intention or capacity to allow the spouse to practise the faith and with no true intention of maintainning the vows

I haven’t read all the posts on this, but I’m probably in the minority here. Pro-choice does not automatically mean pro-abortion." Unfortunately ntenaglia in political terms once you are pro choice your vote means pro abortion.I think you are a compassionate and courageous soul I can understand your views when you see children abused and mothers incapable of mothering it does tempt one to think perhaps it would have been better if they had not been born but just as you allowed your child to live so too should other children be allowed to live just as we were allowed to live However given that then it behoves every person to improve the circumstances of the childre of our world Foster care, adoption being supportive of relatives and friends with children We can all make this a better world. God bless you and yours

 

[Palm_Tree]

But doesn’t second-hand smoke kill innocent people?

Murder is the intentionally taking of the life of another. Yeah, if somebody chooses to use smoke to intentionally take the life of another, then that is murder. For example, if you choose to tie your child up in your garage which you fill with the smoke from your car running or generator running in an attempt to kill them, that is attempted murder.

And yes, exposure to second-hand smoke might kill you, might injure you, might do nothing to you at all. But because second-hand smoke can possibly harm others, we outlawed smoking inside public buildings, airplanes, etc. If we outlaw second-hand smoke because it might possibly **harm **others, why wouldn’t we outlaw abortion, which always results in the **killing **of another?

 

[ntenaglia]

Jesus understands everything in our lives We are always wiser with hindsight and your own life experience makes you more compassionate. It also shows the need for greater teaching of the spiritual foundation needed for marriage so people do not make unhappy choices. The Church has a duty to make Catholic marriage less easy to obtain Too many couples go into marriage with little understanding of their own compatability.I believe too given that some people were allowed to marry to easily without any true understanding of its sacramentality their should be a rethink of annulment procedures to allow greater compasion ans speedier resolution of cases where one spouse entered into the marriage with noreal intention or capacity to allow the spouse to practise the faith and with no true intention of maintainning the vows
ntenaglia;5282378:

I haven’t read all the posts on this, but I’m probably in the minority here. Pro-choice does not automatically mean pro-abortion." Unfortunately ntenaglia in political terms once you are pro choice your vote means pro abortion.I think you are a compassionate and courageous soul I can understand your views when you see children abused and mothers incapable of mothering it does tempt one to think perhaps it would have been better if they had not been born but just as you allowed your child to live so too should other children be allowed to live just as we were allowed to live However given that then it behoves every person to improve the circumstances of the childre of our world Foster care, adoption being supportive of relatives and friends with children We can all make this a better world. God bless you and yours

Again, pro-choice does not mean pro-abortion. It means pro-adoption, pro-birth, as well as pro-abortion. So, you are advocating children brought in this world to be raped, abused, exploited for others’ financial gain?

 

[Palm_Tree]

And your point is what??

My point is that you are cool with allowing mothers to have the right to choose to take a gun and shoot their child in the head. Like you said, they don’t have to choose to blow their child’s head off, they might choose to keep him, or they might choose to put him up for adoption. And, like you said, if the mother does decide to shoot her child in the head, it is not a decision she will make lightly.

 

[ntenaglia]

My point is that you are cool with allowing mothers to have the right to choose to take a gun and shoot their child in the head. Like you said, they don’t have to choose to blow their child’s head off, they might choose to keep him, or they might choose to put him up for adoption. And, like you said, if the mother does decide to shoot her child in the head, it is not a decision she will make lightly.

What’s with the 8-year-old child? We’re not talking child, and we’re not talking late-term abortions either. Then again using your logic she could not shoot the child, allow it to grow up get a gun and shoot the mother, too. If you have an 8-year old, perhaps some time away would be good. You seem very stressed.

 

[qaz]

sometimes a couple is trying to be responsible by using contraception while having sex. Unfortunately, that doesn’t always work.
Do you have any statistics that shows that teaching abstinence actually works?

Dear Cecilia Therese
Firstly what a beautiful name.I found your question intriguing and it made me think of GKChesterton’s quip about Catholicism when he said something along these lines Catholicism has not failed it has not really been tried In other words the teaching is sound and true we just don’t carry out the instructions.
In regard to the natural planning methods of contraception approved by the Church It is generally very effective but a friend who was a nurse and following this method still managed to have a surprise pregnancy which she accepted as God directly intervening and of course she and her husband accepted this surprise with faith even thought it was difficult for them at the time.
As for abstinence teaching If you look back to earlier eras when not only the Church but society in general promoted chastity and premarital sex was frowned upon there were fewer babes born outside marriage and less sexual activity than appears to be the case today so obviously the fact that society taught sex was best left till marriage was a helpful factor.God bless you Cecilia

 

[Palm_Tree]

What’s with the 8-year-old child? We’re not talking child, and we’re not talking late-term abortions either. Then again using your logic she could not shoot the child, allow it to grow up get a gun and shoot the mother, too. If you have an 8-year old, perhaps some time away would be good. You seem very stressed.

lol. You think I’m stressed about abortion, what until the people that are actually hysterical about abortion come on here and talk to you (there is a lot of those on here).

I’m just trying to make sense of what you are trying to say. This is what you said:

*Pro-choice does not automatically mean pro-abortion. It means that the pregnant woman has many choices, some that surprisingly don’t involve abortion. Pro-choice means that the pregnant woman can choose to keep the baby, she can choose to put the **baby *up for adoption, or she can choose to terminate the pregnancy.

You are saying that you are cool with a mother legally having the option to kill her baby. A baby is a very young child. In other words, you saying that you are cool with a mother legally having the option to kill her child (baby, 2-year-old, 4-year-old, 8-year-old, whatever).

Now you are saying that you’re not talking about a child. If you’re not talking about a child, then why did you say you think it is okay for women to have the option to kill their baby? To kill their child?

Usually pro-choice people aren’t pro-murder, they just don’t believe that the aborted baby is really a human. For it to be murder, you have to kill a human. It’s not murder if you kill a mosquito. Usually, pro-choice people don’t think abortion is killing a human, and hence they are not pro-murder.

So my question to you is: when do you think human life begins? I think it begins at conception. Some people think it begins when a heartbeat is detected. Some people think it begins when brainwaves are detected. Some people think it begins when the child begins to look like a human. Some people think it begins when the child is capable of surviving independently of the mother. Some people think it begins at birth.

 

[qaz]

YES, I’M DEFINITELY PRO-CHOICE!

I believe whole-heartedly in a woman’s right to get into bed (or wherever) with a man. HOWEVER, once she has then her “Right to Choose” is over.

I found your quote a bit disquieting rcdianne I am hoping you mean the one love of your life protected by the sacramental bond of matrimony?

 

[ntenaglia]

lol. You think I’m stressed about abortion, what until the people that are actually hysterical about abortion come on here and talk to you (there is a lot of those on here).

I’m just trying to make sense of what you are trying to say. This is what you said:

Pro-choice does not automatically mean pro-abortion. It means that the pregnant woman has many choices, some that surprisingly don’t involve abortion. Pro-choice means that the pregnant woman can choose to keep the baby, she can choose to put the **baby **up for adoption, or she can choose to terminate the pregnancy.

You are saying that you are cool with a mother legally having the option to kill her baby. A baby is a very young child. In other words, you saying that you are cool with a mother legally having the option to kill her child (2-year-old, 4-year-old, 8-year-old, whatever).

Now you are saying that you’re not talking about a child. If you’re not talking about a child, then why did you say you think it is okay for women to have the option to kill their baby? To kill their child?

Usually pro-choice people aren’t pro-murder, they just don’t believe that the aborted baby is really a human. For it to be murder, you have to kill a human. It’s not murder if you kill a mosquito. Usually, pro-choice people don’t think abortion is killing a human, and hence they are not pro-murder.

So my question to you is: when do you think human life begins? I think it begins at conception. Some people think it begins when a heartbeat is detected. Some people think it begins when brainwaves are detected. Some people think it begins when the child begins to look like a human. Some people think it begins when the child is capable of surviving independently of the mother. Some people think it begins at birth.

Look, we’re talking about two different issues. You’re talking about a child resulting from a full-term pregnancy able to sustain life outside the womb. I’m talking first trimester, not condoning late term or live-birth abortion.
What you’re talking about makes no sense to me.

You keep talking about killing 8-year -old boys which makes me think you must have one who is getting on your last nerve.

 

[ntenaglia]

Jesus understands everything in our lives We are always wiser with hindsight and your own life experience makes you more compassionate. It also shows the need for greater teaching of the spiritual foundation needed for marriage so people do not make unhappy choices. The Church has a duty to make Catholic marriage less easy to obtain Too many couples go into marriage with little understanding of their own compatability.I believe too given that some people were allowed to marry to easily without any true understanding of its sacramentality their should be a rethink of annulment procedures to allow greater compasion ans speedier resolution of cases where one spouse entered into the marriage with noreal intention or capacity to allow the spouse to practise the faith and with no true intention of maintainning the vows
ntenaglia;5282378:

I haven’t read all the posts on this, but I’m probably in the minority here. Pro-choice does not automatically mean pro-abortion." Unfortunately ntenaglia in political terms once you are pro choice your vote means pro abortion.I think you are a compassionate and courageous soul I can understand your views when you see children abused and mothers incapable of mothering it does tempt one to think perhaps it would have been better if they had not been born but just as you allowed your child to live so too should other children be allowed to live just as we were allowed to live However given that then it behoves every person to improve the circumstances of the childre of our world Foster care, adoption being supportive of relatives and friends with children We can all make this a better world. God bless you and yours

Unfortunately, abused children usually don’t get supportive relatives and friends.

 

[Palm_Tree]

Look, we’re talking about two different issues. You’re talking about a child resulting from a full-term pregnancy able to sustain life outside the womb. I’m talking first trimester, not condoning late term or live-birth abortion.
What you’re talking about makes no sense to me.

You keep talking about killing 8-year -old boys which makes me think you must have one who is getting on your last nerve.

I asked you a simple question:

When do you think human life begins? I think it begins at conception. Some people think it begins when a heartbeat is detected. Some people think it begins when brainwaves are detected. Some people think it begins when the child begins to look like a human. Some people think it begins when the child is capable of surviving independently of the mother. Some people think it begins at birth.

 

[ntenaglia]

I asked you a simple question:

When do you think human life begins? I think it begins at conception. Some people think it begins when a heartbeat is detected. Some people think it begins when brainwaves are detected. Some people think it begins when the child begins to look like a human. Some people think it begins when the child is capable of surviving independently of the mother. Some people think it begins at birth.

In my own case I would say that it begins at conception because I have with the exception of the first used contraception to prevent conception. But you see that’s where the choice part comes in. I can make decisions for me. If I screw up and **** off God, then that’s between me and God at the end of my life. Sorry, I didn’t see the question in your previous posts. We’re not that far off, just that I make decisions for myself and my soul and you make decisions for others.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . We’re not that far off, just that I make decisions for myself and my soul and you make decisions for others.

Back to the old question: “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

 

[ntenaglia]

Back to the old question: “Am I my brother’s keeper?”

Are you out demonstrating at crack houses? Brothels? Are you so vocal and attacking nursing homes that abuse the elderly? Probably not, because drug addicts and the elderly aren’t that cute. So you choose babies because they’re all cute.

 

[Palm_Tree]

In my own case I would say that it begins at conception because I have with the exception of the first used contraception to prevent conception. But you see that’s where the choice part comes in. I can make decisions for me. If I screw up and **** off God, then that’s between me and God at the end of my life. Sorry, I didn’t see the question in your previous posts. We’re not that far off, just that I make decisions for myself and my soul and you make decisions for others.

Yeah, you do sound like you are in favor of not having any laws making murder illegal. You sound like that you believe anybody should be allowed to kill anybody whenever they choose, and that we shouldn’t make laws to prevent that. We should just leave it between the murderers and God.

If you believe that life begins at conception, that means that you believe that abortion is murder… that every abortion is the intentional taking of a human life.

Like I said above, usually pro-choice people don’t believe that life begins until some point after the abortion, and that the abortion isn’t actually taking a human life, and hence it isn’t murder, it isn’t the intentional taking of a human life.

But if a pro-choice person believes that life begins at contraception, they are pro-murder. They are in favor of allowing people to legally have the choice to intentionally take a human life, which is what murder is.