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Shredderbeam
Guest
If it’s ambiguous, then I think that erring on the side of caution would be wise.
It’s not always ambiguous, though, as a single fertilized cell clearly cannot be conscious of its own existence.
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It’s not always ambiguous, though, as a single fertilized cell clearly cannot be conscious of its own existence.
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royal_archer
Guest
So which ones are you willing to fight to save?
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Arthur001
Guest
I’m an ex-Protestant. I took a position much like that when I was a teenager. Maybe not exactly because of that position, but I now think I was fairly offensive as a teenager.
I think sperms, fetuses and some uneaten carrots are alive. I think the right question is whether they’re alive in the way that qualifies them for the same responses that happen if a civilian kills another civilian.
If fetuses are alive in that sense:
- if someone miscarries, should there be a fatal accident enquiry?
- is malnourishing pregnant women in time of war a war-crime, due to the damage to their unborn children? (eg the differences between the children gestated during the Dutch Hunger Winter and the following generation) If so, when in the child’s life does malnourishing it cease to be a crime?
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
True–but I can say with certainty it works for the rest of us sinners.
And please, even you pro-life advocates, stop calling abortion “CHOICE.” Don’t play the enemy’s own game for him.
In Nazi Germany, when factory workers made the gas to kill Jews, it was called ‘patriotism.’ Words have meaning and they can be used as weapons.
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a_priori
Guest
I think pro-abortion people should actually go and watch a procedure, look at the suction canister with the baby parts or gaze into the dumpster. They should take ownership of what they are supporting. Americans get to have all the fun and the baby parts are kept hidden so as not to upset anyone or spoil the party.
If you vote for it , you should have your nose rubbed in it. The English language does not contain the words necessary to describe this level of hypocrisy. It is off the charts.
If you vote for it , you should have your nose rubbed in it. The English language does not contain the words necessary to describe this level of hypocrisy. It is off the charts.
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Shredderbeam
Guest
It’s hard to say for certain, in part because I’m not an expert on brain development, but from what I’ve read, I think that an acceptable cut-off limit would be somewhere around 18-20 weeks. I suppose I’d be willing to fight to save babies older than that.
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FanChan
Guest
Phew. I finally caught up to the end
Briefly, let me explain who I am and where I’m coming from. I’m my mother’s third child, but have always been an only child. My older sister died of SIDS before I was born, and my oldest sibling was aborted when my mother was in the military. My parents and I all view both deaths as tragic, especially when they realized they were unable to conceive after me, and we were never in the financial position to adopt.
Why did my mother get an abortion? She was overseas on assignment in the military and had a brief relationship with a divorcee who already had kids. She was on-and-off with my father, and got a call from him while she was overseas, wanting her back. She was pregnant, on her own, with an opportunity at a happy life with a man she loved. What did society tell her about out-of-wedlock pregnancies? They’re curses, horrible things that everyone will look down on you for having. She was sure her family would scorn her for it, and that my father wouldn’t take her back if this were the case. What was the last ‘choice’, then? She had an abortion.
Come to find out, my father would have taken that child into his home with open arms. Oh sure, some might say, he’s just saying that in hindsight. No. My older sister was not my father’s child. But if you look at the pictures of him just after she’s born, holding her with the biggest smile a man could give, you’d know he was telling the truth.
This is the key, I think. People talk about abortion as the way to escape the hardships of society, but I say that’s giving up. Why do people view pregnancy as such a terrible thing? Why does society insist that an ‘unplanned’ pregnancy will ruin someone’s life when people all across the country are surviving just fine through one? We need to change society’s attitude, first and foremost, if we want to make a difference. Maintain good relationships with your family, have that support structure. For those women who can’t have that, there need to be places for them to turn to besides abortion mills.
If adoption seems like too frightening a system to put a child in, so frightening that a mother would rather kill her child than submit them to it, then we need to change that. There should be more private adoption agencies, at a more affordable cost, that takes greater care and interest in the children and families they’re helping. If the world says adoption isn’t safe, then MAKE IT SAFE, don’t just give up and say they’re better off dead.
I’ve seen a number of pro-choice people on her say that there are more choices than abortion, that there’s keeping the child and adoption, but how many ‘pro-choice’ organizations put together crisis pregnancy centers? How many run adoption agencies? How many Planned Parenthood and other abortion centers offer counseling before and after an abortion? They insist that the abortion isn’t evil, so can’t accept that MANY women suffer emotionally and physically after an abortion. How can you say you care for the women when you just boot them out the door with a smile and ‘have a nice life’? How many pro-choice organizations put together Rachel’s Vineyard-style retreats for women that are having trouble dealing with their abortions? RV is what brought our family together, twenty years after-the-fact. None of us truly got over it until then.
Saying that not all women suffer after an abortion does not excuse the pro-choice community from ministering to those that do. Pro-choicers demonize the pro-life community by saying we only care about the baby and not the woman, but who really offers more to the women? Who sits with them, offers them coffee and a shoulder to cry on, monetary assistance or diapers when the paycheck’s a bit thin?
Pro-choicers, don’t tote the word ‘choice’ until you prove to me that you really DO something to support the OTHER choices. We do. I experience it every day. Saying that being pro-choice isn’t all about abortion is false. Sure, you might support the other choices, but so does the pro-life side. In fact, that’s all we support. The ONE difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers is abortion. Talking about the other choices just means that you’re pro-life until it comes to abortion. Then you’re pro-choice.
Briefly, let me explain who I am and where I’m coming from. I’m my mother’s third child, but have always been an only child. My older sister died of SIDS before I was born, and my oldest sibling was aborted when my mother was in the military. My parents and I all view both deaths as tragic, especially when they realized they were unable to conceive after me, and we were never in the financial position to adopt.
Why did my mother get an abortion? She was overseas on assignment in the military and had a brief relationship with a divorcee who already had kids. She was on-and-off with my father, and got a call from him while she was overseas, wanting her back. She was pregnant, on her own, with an opportunity at a happy life with a man she loved. What did society tell her about out-of-wedlock pregnancies? They’re curses, horrible things that everyone will look down on you for having. She was sure her family would scorn her for it, and that my father wouldn’t take her back if this were the case. What was the last ‘choice’, then? She had an abortion.
Come to find out, my father would have taken that child into his home with open arms. Oh sure, some might say, he’s just saying that in hindsight. No. My older sister was not my father’s child. But if you look at the pictures of him just after she’s born, holding her with the biggest smile a man could give, you’d know he was telling the truth.
This is the key, I think. People talk about abortion as the way to escape the hardships of society, but I say that’s giving up. Why do people view pregnancy as such a terrible thing? Why does society insist that an ‘unplanned’ pregnancy will ruin someone’s life when people all across the country are surviving just fine through one? We need to change society’s attitude, first and foremost, if we want to make a difference. Maintain good relationships with your family, have that support structure. For those women who can’t have that, there need to be places for them to turn to besides abortion mills.
If adoption seems like too frightening a system to put a child in, so frightening that a mother would rather kill her child than submit them to it, then we need to change that. There should be more private adoption agencies, at a more affordable cost, that takes greater care and interest in the children and families they’re helping. If the world says adoption isn’t safe, then MAKE IT SAFE, don’t just give up and say they’re better off dead.
I’ve seen a number of pro-choice people on her say that there are more choices than abortion, that there’s keeping the child and adoption, but how many ‘pro-choice’ organizations put together crisis pregnancy centers? How many run adoption agencies? How many Planned Parenthood and other abortion centers offer counseling before and after an abortion? They insist that the abortion isn’t evil, so can’t accept that MANY women suffer emotionally and physically after an abortion. How can you say you care for the women when you just boot them out the door with a smile and ‘have a nice life’? How many pro-choice organizations put together Rachel’s Vineyard-style retreats for women that are having trouble dealing with their abortions? RV is what brought our family together, twenty years after-the-fact. None of us truly got over it until then.
Saying that not all women suffer after an abortion does not excuse the pro-choice community from ministering to those that do. Pro-choicers demonize the pro-life community by saying we only care about the baby and not the woman, but who really offers more to the women? Who sits with them, offers them coffee and a shoulder to cry on, monetary assistance or diapers when the paycheck’s a bit thin?
Pro-choicers, don’t tote the word ‘choice’ until you prove to me that you really DO something to support the OTHER choices. We do. I experience it every day. Saying that being pro-choice isn’t all about abortion is false. Sure, you might support the other choices, but so does the pro-life side. In fact, that’s all we support. The ONE difference between pro-lifers and pro-choicers is abortion. Talking about the other choices just means that you’re pro-life until it comes to abortion. Then you’re pro-choice.
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libbybeth
Guest
We have every right to vote in a way that reduces abortions or prevents it altogether. Abortion is killing of the most defenceless of human beings - just remember,a a “foetus” is simply a “little one”. Our compassion should cover all human beings in need, especially those who cannot help themselves.
In terms of trying to prevent deaths caused by abortion, of course we should!! Jesus told us to cut off our hand rather than allow it to prevent our entry into his kingdom - therefore, we should do what we can to stop killing, which incidentally, is done in our country, and with our taxes.
As for the women themselves and their families, we need to do all we can to produce a society that is welcoming to pregnant women and families; we need to extend a helping hand to struggling mums, and dads; we should not be judgmental of women struggling to bring up their children, nor should we turn away from the disabled and their problems. It is attitudes like these that may cause a woman to opt for abortion, instead of life. Whilst being sympathetic and helpful to the problems women face, abortion, or killing children within the womb, is an act to be given zero tolerance.
In terms of trying to prevent deaths caused by abortion, of course we should!! Jesus told us to cut off our hand rather than allow it to prevent our entry into his kingdom - therefore, we should do what we can to stop killing, which incidentally, is done in our country, and with our taxes.
As for the women themselves and their families, we need to do all we can to produce a society that is welcoming to pregnant women and families; we need to extend a helping hand to struggling mums, and dads; we should not be judgmental of women struggling to bring up their children, nor should we turn away from the disabled and their problems. It is attitudes like these that may cause a woman to opt for abortion, instead of life. Whilst being sympathetic and helpful to the problems women face, abortion, or killing children within the womb, is an act to be given zero tolerance.
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Eddie_Mac
Guest
I am not sure what an ex-protestant is, but if that is what defines you then…whatever.
Something that I did not mention in my response to Shredder that you quoted is that if he was so insulted and concerned about insults then he would be concerned about the insult the unborn experience when they are murdered. How can someone feel insulted when they are not concerned about the insult to others? HMMMMMMMM???
To answer your questions, and I am not an expert on miscarriages, but as far as I know they are accidental and if having a fatal accident inquiry would provide the impetus for you ex-protestants to be pro-life then by all means , let’s go for it.
I am not sure I follow the reasoning behind your second question but crimes against humanity are always crimes against humanity, even in war. You must remember that for an act to be a crime, and a sin, it must be intentional and the individual committing the act must know it is such, much more so the sin part. You can be prosecuted for a crime even though you were unaware of the act. This might happen if you turn pro-life.
I have often offended folks as well because of my habit of telling things as they are. Too bad. You have no right to not be offended. I stand by my statements since everyday unborn children die while individuals such as yourself and shredder defend sin and murder.
Eddie Mac
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Thanks. Tough, but true.
Prior to the election I got an anti-abortion flyer in the mail. I happened to glance at the dismembered, tiny, fully human arms and legs, broke out in tears, and could not look at it again.
You wanna ‘choose’ to murder an innocent? Then know what you’re doing.
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livi
Guest
abortion is the killing of a person, and is therefore always wrong. it is a very “cut and dry” issue. and no, as you may have gathered, I am not pro-choice.
its interesting to think about. i wonder how many pro-choice people saw that show and thought about how cute the unborn baby animals were. i wonder if they think it would be okay to abort them. maybe that show can help convince some of them that if unborn animals are life, then certainly unborn people are too.
its interesting to think about. i wonder how many pro-choice people saw that show and thought about how cute the unborn baby animals were. i wonder if they think it would be okay to abort them. maybe that show can help convince some of them that if unborn animals are life, then certainly unborn people are too.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I’m still waiting for a reasonable explanation as to why it’s illegal to step on the egg of a turtle yet legal to cut up a living human baby inside the womb.
The term pro-choice must be replaced with pro-abortion. And maybe this is a sign that the enemy knows he’s on the ropes. He has to clumsily rename a hideous act in the hopes that people won’t know what he’s talking about.
It can be done. Be warned.
The term pro-choice must be replaced with pro-abortion. And maybe this is a sign that the enemy knows he’s on the ropes. He has to clumsily rename a hideous act in the hopes that people won’t know what he’s talking about.
It can be done. Be warned.
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a_priori
Guest
Amen and amen…
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edward_leblanc
Guest
here is a little story I once read.
A man for many yrs prayed ,and prayed evernight.asking our Lord .to send someone to this world to help with hunger.sickness. Aids. wars etc .
This one night God in his awesome ,gentle voice responded to his pray.
"my dear son ,so many children i have sent to the world to grow and have the knowledge of all your questions. but they have been aborted…Peace in Christ my friend Eddie
A man for many yrs prayed ,and prayed evernight.asking our Lord .to send someone to this world to help with hunger.sickness. Aids. wars etc .
This one night God in his awesome ,gentle voice responded to his pray.
"my dear son ,so many children i have sent to the world to grow and have the knowledge of all your questions. but they have been aborted…Peace in Christ my friend Eddie
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Arthur001
Guest
Thanks. I no longer want to argue with you about this bit. Maybe I’m growing up or something
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Palm_Tree
Guest
So you read a story telling you that all the good people get aborted and you didn’t think that was silly? A better way to explain it would be to say that next Einstein or the next Mother Teresa or the next Beethoven or the next Pope or whatever could have been killed by an abortion. But realistically, what are the chances that one’s child will be the next Einstein, Mother Teresa, Beethoven, Pope, etc… 1 in a million? It’s not a very convincing argument.
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Palm_Tree
Guest
Regarding this whole line you draw regarding how life begins only once the child is self-aware or whatever…
Regardless of where pro-choice people draw the line of when life begins, the common theme is usually that they always draw it at some point that gives them plenty of time to abort their child before it “becomes human.” In other words, they like believing that there is some sort of “grace period” between conception and the point the baby is actually a human–during which time they can get an abortion if they don’t want the baby, and it will be okay because it is not really a human at that point. But I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re just playing mental tricks with yourself, just telling yourself that abortion is okay in case you need to choose to use it in an emergency… but when that time comes and you pull the trigger on the abortion, those mental tricks you played with yourself to justify your irresponsible behavior might not hold up, and you might very well hate yourself for the rest of your life for murdering your child.
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ntenaglia
Guest
It isn’t that I’m saying I agree with many pro-choice people who advocate abortion as a first-line of contraception. I’m simply recognizing that there are **multiple **choices and each woman has to make the choice that’s right for her situation and with her own conscience. It’s in line with the concept of “free will” as advocated by the Church. If she’s wrong, then that’s a matter for God and her soul to deal with when she dies.
Many posts I’ve read on this subject seem to think that there’s only 1 choice available in pro-choice. That’s just not what pro-choice means.
At 17, in my senior year of high school 35 years ago my choice was to have the baby. It wasn’t easy, but I’m very proud of my son. Had I conceived another child after my first marriage ended, I probably would have made the same choice. But that’s me.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
So you have a better idea than God?
It is not pro-CHOICE. Their stance is pro-ABORTION. Please get that straight. The baby has no choice.
‘Choice’ is a fuzzy and pleasant word to disguise the fact that murder is being committed. The war against meaning is a serious one, and every Catholic needs to be aware of it.
Once and for all, pro-abortion is not pro-choice.
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ntenaglia
Guest
Using your logic, pro-choice is not necessarily pro-abortion.
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