Anyone Believes In Jin and Jinni......

[paarsurrey]

I am sorry brother. Correction. I missed the word “not”. I mean that we should NOT judge people so easily.

Hi

Brother Swariffin!

It is OK; one can make mistakes, we are having a friendly discussion.

Thanks

 

[Contarini]

Please inform those reference of not angel not demon from Augustine writing to me, please!

Werewolf!? - There wolf! - Why are you talking like that? - I thought you wanted to! ← Young Frankenstein

Sorry, I think I was wrong. I was following C. S. Lewis, and when I go back and look at Augustine it seems to me that he’s fairly confident that there are no rational beings who are not either humans, good angels, or evil angels. (I remembered him being more open to the possibility, but I think I remembered wrong under the influence of Lewis.) Augustine does say in City of God 16.8 that the “monstrous races” reported by secular writers may not be human (though he seems to lean toward the view that they are humans descended from Adam). This is probably the passage I was thinking of (and which I believe Lewis cites), but he may be implying that if non-human they are simply irrational animals.

However, Lewis does bring a lot of evidence from later medieval writers for the idea of the “Longaevi,” who have a somewhat similarly ambiguous relationship to the angels/demons dichotomy as do the Islamic Jinn. (For Lewis’s most systematic discussion of this, see his *The Discarded Image.)

• Edwin

 

[Steven_John]

Dear Steven,

That is why Jesus say that we should judge other people easily, because there is only one absolute standard, which is God standard. The standard of God cannot be interpreted according to human taste so easily either.

Peace and blessings to you and yours.
I know you meant “not”.

If you have decided i have judged i have failed to communicate well.

Judgment requires a conviction and sentence.

My was more of a question stating i might assume. The people i see do this i love, I pray for them and they for me.
The ones i ask have no idea why they do this other than thats what my parents did or that it is an image of Jesus (PBWH).

If you practice this and would like to share why. i would be keen to hear and please understand i have nothing against you or any other people that do this.

May God bless and guide us all.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Sorry, I think I was wrong. I was following C. S. Lewis, and when I go back and look at Augustine it seems to me that he’s fairly confident that there are no rational beings who are not either humans, good angels, or evil angels. (I remembered him being more open to the possibility, but I think I remembered wrong under the influence of Lewis.) Augustine does say in City of God 16.8 that the “monstrous races” reported by secular writers may not be human (though he seems to lean toward the view that they are humans descended from Adam). This is probably the passage I was thinking of (and which I believe Lewis cites), but he may be implying that if non-human they are simply irrational animals.

However, Lewis does bring a lot of evidence from later medieval writers for the idea of the “Longaevi,” who have a somewhat similarly ambiguous relationship to the angels/demons dichotomy as do the Islamic Jinn. (For Lewis’s most systematic discussion of this, see his *The Discarded Image.)

• Edwin

Very interesting! Thanks.

I have trouble thinking that anyone would unduly complicate the “bestiary” any further than:
God,
angels (good & evil),
humans,
animals,
veggies,
non-living.

Those who would go for those “intermediary” forms are just being superstitious in wanting, for some oddball reason, to play “Dr. Moreau”.

Then again, wanting to “play God” is a rather universal theme around these here parts, is it not mon frere?

 

[Contarini]

Very interesting! Thanks.

I have trouble thinking that anyone would unduly complicate the “bestiary” any further than:
God,
angels (good & evil),
humans,
animals,
veggies,
non-living.

Those who would go for those “intermediary” forms are just being superstitious in wanting, for some oddball reason, to play “Dr. Moreau”.

Then again, wanting to “play God” is a rather universal theme around these here parts, is it not mon frere?

I should be fair and say that the “Longaevi” (and certainly the beings Augustine is talking about) were embodied and so arguably not quite the same thing as the angels/demons of the 13th century and thereafter. However, neither are the Jinn, and arguably the angels and demons of much Christian theology up to the High Middle Ages were also seen as embodied creatures. And Lewis says that some medieval writers thought the “Longaevi” (elves, etc.) were a sort of demon–one speculation was that they were angels who refused to take sides in the war in heaven and thus were exiled to earth.

I don’t see why the “bestiary” shouldn’t be complicated. Clearly the taxonomy of the critters known to science is pretty complicated!

I’m highly skeptical about the idea that there is any pure spirit except God. (This is one of those things I might have to accept if I became Catholic, since I understand it was defined at Lateran IV. But as an Anglican I can speculate!) That being the case, I am also skeptical of the idea that all beings of the class we know as “angels and demons” must be either wholly good or wholly evil. I see no theological reason why there couldn’t be beings with more “ethereal” bodies than ours who were, like us, capable of some degree of moral ambivalence. That seems to be the way the Jinn are described in the Qur’an. This isn’t an Islamic invention–something like it seems to have been believed by many early medieval Christians. And I would not rule out the possibility that it may be true.

I can’t see for the life of my how Dr. Moreau or “playing God” is relevant. No one is trying to create these beings!

Edwin

 

[swariffin]

Peace and blessings to you and yours.
I know you meant “not”.

If you have decided i have judged i have failed to communicate well.

Judgment requires a conviction and sentence.

My was more of a question stating i might assume. The people i see do this i love, I pray for them and they for me.
The ones i ask have no idea why they do this other than thats what my parents did or that it is an image of Jesus (PBWH).

If you practice this and would like to share why. i would be keen to hear and please understand i have nothing against you or any other people that do this.

May God bless and guide us all.

Dear Steven,

Thanks for your ability to read between the line. God bless you too, brother.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I should be fair and say that the “Longaevi” (and certainly the beings Augustine is talking about) were embodied and so arguably not quite the same thing as the angels/demons of the 13th century and thereafter. However, neither are the Jinn, and arguably the angels and demons of much Christian theology up to the High Middle Ages were also seen as embodied creatures. And Lewis says that some medieval writers thought the “Longaevi” (elves, etc.) were a sort of demon–one speculation was that they were angels who refused to take sides in the war in heaven and thus were exiled to earth.

I have my own personal “speculation”, which doesn’t break any “rules” as to my being Catholic, I hope, <cough!>, which is that humans (and beings “lower”) sometimes percieve as one being a (or some) angel(s) and a (or some) demon(s), such that this “being” transforms back and forth, and perhaps back again, from good to evil, as if “it” were some schizoidal spirit-person fighting with itself.

That’s about as far as I’ll go with mixing “species”.

I don’t see why the “bestiary” shouldn’t be complicated. Clearly the taxonomy of the critters known to science is pretty complicated!

Well, in truth, the taxonomy of “life” is even simpler than that proposed by the “Catholic bestiary”. It is composed only of living things and non-living things.

I’m highly skeptical about the idea that there is any pure spirit except God. (This is one of those things I might have to accept if I became Catholic, since I understand it was defined at Lateran IV. But as an Anglican I can speculate!) That being the case, I am also skeptical of the idea that all beings of the class we know as “angels and demons” must be either wholly good or wholly evil.

Nah. Angels must be always perfectly good, and demons perfectly evil. But since we don’t know what “perfectly anything” looks like, our perceptions of the angels and demons get colored by our weird preconceptions of things, and they appear as they do to us.

I see no theological reason why there couldn’t be beings with more “ethereal” bodies than ours who were, like us, capable of some degree of moral ambivalence. That seems to be the way the Jinn are described in the Qur’an. This isn’t an Islamic invention–something like it seems to have been believed by many early medieval Christians. And I would not rule out the possibility that it may be true.

The “opinions” by these “earlier people” were polluted by the same corrupting influences as the moslems (and others) mistaken “opinions” about spiritual beings. The theological reason that angelic beings could (can) not be “mixed” is because ONLY humans are capable of “mind changing” and exist in a “time” which is not an “eternity” to them.

Of course, beings, and things, “lesser” than humans also exist in a time which is not an eternity, but they are there only as the “environment” for humans.

I can’t see for the life of my how Dr. Moreau or “playing God” is relevant. No one is trying to create these beings!

Edwin

To superstitiously “create” gods, quasi-good demons, and quasi-evil angels is a continual “problem” for humankind. These non-existant things ARE created by people, at the prompting perhaps of the demons, and reinforced BY the demons for their purposes so as to further “hook” those hapless humans into digging their own graves, so to speak.

The whole of salvation history is ABOUT our playing around with the first commandment!