In her biography, at the age 14, she was already working and missed a lot of classes and catechism. The foster mother took St. Bernadette as a catechumen and spent 2 hrs on certain days to catechize her. The foster mother complained that Bernadette is too dull to memorize a word. I doubt she knew anything about the Immaculate Conception.
For those who can accept that yardstick, fine. God bless you. I myself treasure the blessed freedom I have to weigh ideas, consulting scripture, reviewing tradition up to a point, including discoveries of science, but also adding reason and common sense.
For example, if we take the Bible literally there are about 6000 years since the creation of the first man, Adam. But we know from science that this is false.
Or, there are contradictions. Jehovah supposedly ordered Joshua to slay all the inhabitants of Jericho, Ai and other cities. But not long before Jehovah gave Moses the Ten Commandments, which include "thou shalt not kill".
Or, what about certain miracles that simply don't add up. Does anyone out there really believe that Moses built an ark and then was able to corral two of every animal inside for forty days? Just think of what was involved, including the food required. And many innocent people, certainly babies, must have drowned!
Or, Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and not destroy it. What about those laws in Exodus 21, Lev. 20, Deut. 22 and elsewhere that permit selling a daughter into slavery, killing a son who is rebellious, and a bevy of other wildly cruel injunctions?
We could go on and on. I respect all faiths that promote loving God and one another, but I need the freedom to use reason and modern knowledge rather than accept concepts that often conflict with Christian morality, defy human reason and continue flawed data from ancient times.
God bless Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox and people of all creeds, colors and counrtries. Let us make religion a bridge not a barrier, and work together for peace and understanding and against bigotry.You can keep on investigating. Pray a lot. If you are already in RCIA, don’t get out. Keep on studying.
I will always stay at my catholic church no matter what happens.
My church makes me so happy, I get even more happy and peaceful when my priest blesses me at communion, thank you Ferdie. No protestant church will ever be good enough to pull me away from my cathoic church. 
I just realized that if the dogma of the “Immaculate Conception” was the first dogma ever spoken by a pope ex-cathedra (and before the advent of the apparitions) then Mother Mary appearing to St. Bernadette at Lourdes as the “Immaculate Conception” is affirmation of papal infallibility. Furthermore, there is also the famous St. Catherine Laboure who attestified to the sinlessness of Mother Mary. She is the saint who was told by our blessed Mother to strike a medal with this famous prayer: " O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee".
Except that Origin does not have the same presuppositions a modern Roman Catholic has.
, but we know it is no fault of yours ."According to Bernadette’s account, during that same visitation that she claimed, she again asked the lady her name but the lady just smiled back. She repeated the question three more times and finally heard the lady say, in Occitan, “I am the Immaculate Conception” (Qué soï era immaculado councepcioũ, a phonetic transcription of Que soi era immaculada concepcion by someone not literate in Occitan). Four years earlier, Pope Pius IX had defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception; that, alone of all human beings who have ever lived (save for Jesus, Adam, and Eve), the Virgin Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin. Her parents, teachers and priests all later testified that she had never previously heard the words ‘immaculate conception’ from them."
What fascinated me when I was reading her biography, was despite her being a simple minded person kept her story straight despite the cleverness of the investigators. I mean if she was telling a lie, men trained in making a criminal confess should have no problem making a child confess.
That is very true. Also her body was never decomposed either right? (There is a technical term for that)
Yeah a have a book titled ‘The Incorruptibles’. I don’t know if science have already explained this phenomenon.
The Church views Jesus as the new Adam and Mary the new Eve, like the original Adam and Eve Mary was created/conceived without sin. Also, if Mary had been marked by original sin, then would that not have affected Jesus who was without sin and whose humanity was given to him by his mother?Except that Origin does not have the same presuppositions a modern Roman Catholic has.
Knowing what a nice person you are, I could call you immaculate.
To Orthodox, Mary was sinless, thus the term immaculate (meaning “no Maccula”) is not an improper one.
If you don’t sin, you could be immaculate too!
Of course, you might say that you have a propensity to sin as part of your nature, you just fight it as best you can. No Orthodox Christian could argue that about you
What the new (IC) dogma states is that she was conceived immaculate. That can be taken in two ways:
If she was predestined to a special state of holiness beyond any other person, then her fiat was not a free choice and the rest of us have no hope of doing likewise. This seems to be the Latin position, based more or less on the notion of total depravity of the human condition. This notion seems to have begun with the convert Tertullian, and been more fully developed by a later convert called Augustine.
- All persons are conceived immaculate, and she is just one of many
- This one person was predestined to a special state at one remove from the rest of humanity
That should resonate with Calvinists.
But the western notion of a depraved state of humankind also compels the church to recognize that all non-Christians, non-baptized babies and aborted fetuses go to hell. This is a horrific thought.
**
"The most Holy Roman Church ****firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, ****not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels… **
Bull Cantate Domino Eugene IV, Bishop of Rome 1442
Thus, some western Catholics have postulated another state of being for innocent babes called the “limbo of the Infants”, which means they ‘do not suffer, but are denied the Beatific Vision’.
Pope John Paul II, after reflecting on the incredible number of abortions thought that perhaps limbo was an unfair sentence to innocent babes. Then the whole Limbo dust-up reveals to us that Limbo was never a real doctrine of the church, that the church “never taught Limbo”, which is incorrect, because the Magisterium actually did teach this without the benefit of an Ex Cathedra statement, nor a Conciliar statement. The idea grew organically through the church.
Limbo was taught with the same or perhaps even greater conviction than the Immaculate Conception idea was taught before 1854AD. And there is enough evidence of that to proclaim it a dogma Ex Cathedra if the Pope wanted too.
But it is looking like an embarrassment.
The Latin Church’s default position (if Limbo goes away), is the damnation of the innocent. Pope John Paul II actually had a ‘hope’ for these poor innocent ones that quite frankly mirrors Orthodox ideas, but is new for the west. In 2007AD, under Pope Benedict the International Theological Commission issued a statement on the matter.]
Long ago, western Christians realized that such a depraved state of being is unacceptable for the little Palestinian Jewish girl who was destined to be the Mother of God. So the theory of an “immaculate” conception began to circulate, again organically, through the areas of the church which embraced the human depravity concept of Augustine. It is really a bug fix ( a theoretical patch) over a crack in the western theological construct of Original Sin, just like Limbus Infantum was a bug fix for the same problem.
Holy Orthodoxy recognizes that all are born with ‘concupiscence’, the propensity to sin. But the Orthodox do not see any person exempt from this, we all just fight this part of our nature as best we can.
Ditto for Saint Mary of Nazareth, we feel that she did a great job! :clapping:
To us, she is heroic.
Coptic Orthodox also refer to her as Saint Mary along with Holy Theotokos.
Does the fact that Saint Anna was subject to concupiscence make any difference to Saint Mary?
If you read my history you would see I refer to her as the Holy Theotokos regularly.
I feel that I am very close to converting to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I recognize that the Free Methodist Church in which I grew up (a splinter from the Methodist Church, which was a splinter from the Anglican Church, which was a splinter from the Catholic Church) cannot lay claim to this title, for all its virtues. At best, I could claim that it is part of an invisible body of believers, or that certain members of it are, by virtue of their sincere confession of Christ as Lord. Having researched the Catholic Church and traditional Christianity as a whole for the past four years, I see that this invisible body was not what early Christians were thinking of when they spoke of the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.”
No, because she was immaculately conceived by the grace of God, i.e., God knew she would be bearing the Son of God. Do the Orthodox believe Mary to be the new Eve?
I wasn’t refering to concupiscience, but original sin. This is what I found on wikipedia concerning the Orthodox perspective pertaining to original sin.
But what is she called in Heaven (is she queen)?She actually is Saint Mary of Nazareth you know, and she was not the Holy Theotokos until she became pregnant, so calling her by her first name in the context of her conception, birth and childhood should not be an issue.
No, I haven’t but I would love to watch it. Have you ever seen “The Scarlet and the Black” or “Lilies of the Field” or “A Man for all Seasons”? They are exceptionally good movies. God bless.BTW, did you ever see that old movie The Bells of Saint Mary’s? Great stuff
I don’t think too much stress should be laid on a body being incorrupt or not as a proof of holiness (and indeed, the Church doesn’t).
One has to recognize it as an analogy, as in representing a second chance for humanity.
Your notion of original sin is not my original sin.
First Sin, or ancestral sin, is a term relating to the effects of Adam’s Fall, not the responsibility for it. Illness, desire and death are among the effects.
How then can Mary be born free of sin if her mother wasn’t? This logic does not follow.
I think you are suggesting the Anselmian Satisfaction theory (turn of the 12th century), it is not the original understanding of the church.
One has to recognize it as an analogy, as in representing a second chance for humanity.
Your notion of original sin is not my original sin.
First Sin, or ancestral sin, is a term relating to the effects of Adam’s Fall, not the responsibility for it. Illness, desire and death are among the effects.
How then can Mary be born free of sin if her mother wasn’t? This logic does not follow.
I think you are suggesting the Anselmian Satisfaction theory (turn of the 12th century), it is not the original understanding of the church.
Indeed, in some parts of the dry east a quick corruption was taken as a sign of holiness.