Anyone Else Find Vatican II's Efforts for Ecumenism Ironic?

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Why do the RADICAL Traditionalist almost always use links to those who are not in communion with the Roman Church?!?

One quick point: The people who run traditioninaction are in union with Rome. They are laymen, who have not endured any sanction from the Church, and who are not Sedevacantists.

I’ve noticed that one of the means used to discredit disturbing information is to attack the source by labeling them schismatics, or “out of union with Rome”. Neither is the case with them.

They just report the information. I guess if the information is too much to handle, or something you don’t want to deal with, the best thing to do is to shoot the messenger.

 

[agr4028]

This is so fascinating. All the petty arguing. As a Catholic, I find the greatest obstacle to “bringing others home” to be over-zealous Catholics, who misconstrue the teachings of the Church to suit their personal agendas.

A perfect example was a thread of a couple of weeks ago, which seems to have disappeared, concerning Mary. The original post was a quote from someone who stated that, at their judgement they wanted Jesus to say that his mother spoke highly of him, or something to that effect.

This simply is NOT a teaching of the CHURCH. NOWHERE in Church teaching are we told that Mary has a say-so in our personal judgement.

But, these over-zealous, personal beliefs, are latched onto by Protestants as representative of what the Catholic Church teaches. Maybe if we took a cue from Dragnet…“just the facts” instead of exaggerating things, we could do a better job of drawing our seperated brothers and sisters “home”.

 

[brotherhrolf]

This is so fascinating. All the petty arguing. As a Catholic, I find the greatest obstacle to “bringing others home” to be over-zealous Catholics, who misconstrue the teachings of the Church to suit their personal agendas.

A perfect example was a thread of a couple of weeks ago, which seems to have disappeared, concerning Mary. The original post was a quote from someone who stated that, at their judgement they wanted Jesus to say that his mother spoke highly of him, or something to that effect.

This simply is NOT a teaching of the CHURCH. NOWHERE in Church teaching are we told that Mary has a say-so in our personal judgement.

But, these over-zealous, personal beliefs, are latched onto by Protestants as representative of what the Catholic Church teaches. Maybe if we took a cue from Dragnet…“just the facts” instead of exaggerating things, we could do a better job of drawing our seperated brothers and sisters “home”.

And my response to you would be the same as to Like regarding traditional Catholics.

 

[Cat]

This is not my opinion. This is what they actually teach. Like I mentioned above, it made me so sick to my stomach to read the quotes in the book that I couldn’t even finish the book. I only got to about page 150 out of over 500 pages. I did not enjoy reading it.

The book is basically just a bunch of quotes with a little commentary. Anyone who reads that book will understand what is happening to the Church.

The Church is going through a serious crisis. It has been predicted many times by saints. In fact, Our Lady of Good success, from the 16th century, actually specified the date. She said the crisis that she was describing would take place “in the second half of the 20th century”. There have been many other saints who predicted it.

But, and keep this in mind: These same saints who predicted the crisis we are in now, also predicted a glorious restoration of the Church, which is probably right around the corner. They described the restoration as miraculous and almost unimaginable. Just as the crisis we are now in is almost unimaginable, so too will be the restoration.

We should not be discouraged. Instead, let us strive all the more to live as God would have us to live and to remain firm in the faith during this time of apostasy.

How do you know that the “glorious restoration of the Chruch” doesn’t refer to the reuniting of the Church–Orthodox and Protestants with Catholics into “ONE Holy Catholic Apostolic Church?”

Now THAT is miraculous and unimaginable!

But I can see signs that this is happening. I know so many evangelical Protestant churches that are adding “Catholic” things to their worship, and this, IMO (and in the opinion of the anti-Catholic media personalities!) is a step on the Road back to Rome!

Many of you see the ecumenical signs as horrendous. I see them as the beginning of “birth pangs” that will eventually lead to a reuniting. Labor is not pleasant or pretty, but the end result it worth it.

I pray that this is what Our Lady and the other saints meant–ONE Christian Church. Oh, I hope it may be so in my lifetime!

 

[stmaria]

I pray that this is what Our Lady and the other saints meant–**ONE Christian Church. **Oh, I hope it may be so in my lifetime!

Don’t you mean “One Holy and Apostolic** Catholic **Church”
With the Pope as it head?

 

[dyspepsic]

The fact that the Catholic church could so easily throw such a thing of beauty away and replace it with ridiculousness (clown masses?! WT…?) frankly proves to me that it is not the true religion. Sorry if that offends anyone, I have to say what I truly feel.

Let’s see: The Canon of the Mass is the same, excepting they added the name of St. Joseph who is the Patron of the Universal Church.

From the “Our Father” through the Communion is the same, although they added the "kiss of peace’ where all the faithful express this devotion.

In the Mass of the Catechumens, they added one more reading. The Introit, the Collect, and the Gradual are the same.
The Offertory is the same.

Oh, they put the Mass in the language of the people, so now we have a truly participated Mass. This was a crying need when I was growing up, and now you are complaining about it?

Now, they did change the prayers at the foot of the altar, and they omitted the prayers after the Mass, including the Last Gospel.

Is that what you are upset about: the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, and the Hail Holy Queen, and the Last Gospel, being omitted?

You are being totally ridiculous. How do you have any credence whatsoever, about 'them messing up your Mass"?

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

How do you know that the “glorious restoration of the Chruch” doesn’t refer to the reuniting of the Church–Orthodox and Protestants with Catholics into “ONE Holy Catholic Apostolic Church?”

Now THAT is miraculous and unimaginable!

Let me rephrase it: The glorious restoration will result in the end of all of the Protestant heresies and an end to the heretical and schismatic Orthodox church. These groups, whose heresies are a mortal sin against the first commandment, will realize their error, renounce it, and return to the Catholic Church that their early leaders left, to their own perdition.

The prophecies I have been speaking of do indeed say that all heresies will cease, which means all who claim to be Christian will indeed be real Christians - Roman Catholics.

But I can see signs that this is happening. I know so many evangelical Protestant churches that are adding “Catholic” things to their worship, and this, IMO (and in the opinion of the anti-Catholic media personalities!) is a step on the Road back to Rome!

Personally, I don’t think we are there yet. And Protestants simply adding Catholic things is not enough. They must renounce all their heresies (and there are probably too many to mention), and return to the Catholic Church. They must “convert” and become Roman Catholics.

Many of you see the ecumenical signs as horrendous. I see them as the beginning of “birth pangs” that will eventually lead to a reuniting. Labor is not pleasant or pretty, but the end result it worth it.

The problem is that ecumenism today does not seek the return of the heretics and schismatics to the true Church. Instead, they are seeking to unite the true Church with heretical sects - fire with water, light with darkness, Christ with Bilial.

I pray that this is what Our Lady and the other saints meant–ONE Christian Church. Oh, I hope it may be so in my lifetime!

There is already only One True Church. What I hope you mean is that the heretics will renounce their error and return to this Church. If that is what you mean, I think you do have much reason to hope.

 

[stmaria]

=dyspepsic;3518568]Let’s see: The Canon of the Mass is the same, excepting they added the name of St. Joseph who is the Patron of the Universal Church.

It’s not the same. Eucharistist Prayer I which is a model of the Roman Canon is seldom used. The short version of Eucharistic Prayer II is the most commonly used and it contains no mention of the Communion of Saints, the apostles Peter and Paul, St Michael the Archangel or the Blessed Virgin. It could in fact be used by a Protestant minister.

From the “Our Father” through the Communion is the same, although they added the "kiss of peace’ where all the faithful express this devotion

.
No it isn’t. Different prayers. How does the" kiss of peace "express “devotion”?

In the Mass of the Catechumens, they added one more reading. The Introit, the Collect, and the Gradual are the same.
The Offertory is the same.

Not the same

Now, they did change the prayers at the foot of the altar, and they omitted the prayers after the Mass, including the Last Gospel

.
Yes. Plus the Penitential Rite, I confess to almighty God, is optional… The words “Mystery of Faith” do not refer to Christ’s death and resurrection.

Is that what you are upset about: the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, and the Hail Holy Queen, and the Last Gospel, being omitted?

No reason to remove those wonderful prayers.

 

[stmaria]

=Pax et Caritas;3516938]
The book is basically just a bunch of quotes with a little commentary. Anyone who reads that book will understand what is happening to the Church.

I also have that book. The authors definition of “Spirit of the Council” is very interesting. it explains why theologians like Hans Kung, Edward Schilleeckx, Charles Curran and others have never been excommunicated.

 

[I_Believe]

This is so fascinating. All the petty arguing. As a Catholic, I find the greatest obstacle to “bringing others home” to be over-zealous Catholics, who misconstrue the teachings of the Church to suit their personal agendas.

A perfect example was a thread of a couple of weeks ago, which seems to have disappeared, concerning Mary. The original post was a quote from someone who stated that, at their judgement they wanted Jesus to say that his mother spoke highly of him, or something to that effect.

This simply is NOT a teaching of the CHURCH. NOWHERE in Church teaching are we told that Mary has a say-so in our personal judgement.

But, these over-zealous, personal beliefs, are latched onto by Protestants as representative of what the Catholic Church teaches. Maybe if we took a cue from Dragnet…“just the facts” instead of exaggerating things, we could do a better job of drawing our seperated brothers and sisters “home”.

Welcome back

 

[HelenRose]

It’s intention was trying to unite all Christian churches by being more like them and all they do is break apart their own church while still having everyone else flip the bird at Catholicism.

Ironic.

“Everyone Else” ???

Some maybe but certainly not everyone else and certainly not me - a convert to this beautiful, wonderful, fasinating Catholic Church of mine.

Who belongs the the “Everyone Else” Club? Those who have rebelled? Those who were anti-Catholic in the first place? Those who would have left the Church anyway?

“Everyone Else” is a huge number of people.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I wish people would actually read the documents of Vatican I and Vatican II. This would make this so much easier. People here accuse us the Traditionalists of heresy. What is the heresy we are guilty of? Following the way things have been done since 33 AD? Following Vatican II. Following Motu Proprio. Following Pope Benedict XVI wishes to return to the Traditional faith.

 

[bear06]

Let me rephrase it: The glorious restoration will result in the end

of all of the Protestant heresies and an end to the heretical and schismatic Orthodox church.

Uh, the Council of Trent and the TLM didn’t achieve this hundreds of years ago. It didn’t bring people back and it didn’t keep people from leaving either. Life in our Church will never be perfect until the Final Judgment! We all need to gain some historical perspective.

 

[HashemEchad]

Don’t be sorry. I personally appreciate an outsider’s view of Catholicism and I would rather hear your opinion than one of Rome’s cheerleaders.

As for it being the true religion, you don’t have to look very far for you to find people mucking up judaism. We both have our enemies, inside and out.

This is also true. I have noticed that the mainline Protestant were the first “to go” (as in, “go liberal”)…at one time they were very conservative, theologically. Not any more.

With Judaism, the reform Jews announced they were forming their own new version of the religion, and trashed many long-held traditional beliefs. Fortunately Orthodox Judaism (what was normative Judaism until the reform started up a couple hundred years ago) are unmoveable to this day, but who knows how long that will last?

And Catholicism was invaded by the liberals during Vatican 2. Actually I think the liberals were already in there, and had been for some time…why else would Pope Pius X have felt the need to write *an encyclical against modernism *at the turn of the 20th century?

I have been to a few new masses; remember that half my family is Catholic, and some of them are part of the new church, so I’ve been to a few weddings, funerals, etc

Having once worked for the Lutheran Church in America, I checked out some Lutheran liturgies when I worked there for their publishing board (they would have chapel services daily for the Lutheran workers)…the new Catholic mass, really, is almost identical to the Lutheran service.

Isn’t the Catholic Mass supposed to be a continuation of a sacrifice? And if so, how can that be taking place when the priest faces the people? If the Mass is supposed to be a sacrifice, then the people and the priest have to all face the SAME WAY, as the High Priest did in the Temple in Jerusalem.

 

[HashemEchad]

I wish people would actually read the documents of Vatican I and Vatican II. This would make this so much easier. People here accuse us the Traditionalists of heresy. What is the heresy we are guilty of? Following the way things have been done since 33 AD? Following Vatican II. Following Motu Proprio. Following Pope Benedict XVI wishes to return to the Traditional faith.

Did you ever see a film from the 1970s entitled CATHOLICS? I like what the crusty old priest (the Latin Mass holdout that Martin Sheen had to go and “discipline”) said:

“Today’s heresy is yesterday’s orthodoxy”!

 

[HashemEchad]

Let’s see: The Canon of the Mass is the same, excepting they added the name of St. Joseph who is the Patron of the Universal Church.

From the “Our Father” through the Communion is the same, although they added the "kiss of peace’ where all the faithful express this devotion.

In the Mass of the Catechumens, they added one more reading. The Introit, the Collect, and the Gradual are the same.
The Offertory is the same.

Oh, they put the Mass in the language of the people, so now we have a truly participated Mass. This was a crying need when I was growing up, and now you are complaining about it?

Now, they did change the prayers at the foot of the altar, and they omitted the prayers after the Mass, including the Last Gospel.

Is that what you are upset about: the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel, and the Hail Holy Queen, and the Last Gospel, being omitted?

You are being totally ridiculous. How do you have any credence whatsoever, about 'them messing up your Mass"?

The words of consecration are different, for one. I’d think that would be of utmost importance to a devout Catholic.

They changed it from “for you and for many” (pro vobis et pro multis) to “for you and for all men” (pro vobis et pro omnis). You might not think that makes much difference, but according to Catholic traditional theology, it does.

Does a Jew have to tell you this?

 

[Gara3987]

The words of consecration are different, for one. I’d think that would be of utmost importance to a devout Catholic.

They changed it from “for you and for many” (pro vobis et pro multis) to “for you and for all men” (pro vobis et pro omnis). You might not think that makes much difference, but according to Catholic traditional theology, it does.

Does a Jew have to tell you this?

Perfect Example

 

[elt1956]

Hi jeanannemarie, I pray you’ll be on guard for a lot of the anti-Rome, anti-Pope links that you will find post-ed in these forums and especially in this sub forum. The link you said you read, post-ed by Pax and is post-ed quit often by many so called Traditionalist, is VERY much anti-popes Paul VI, JPII and B16 & anything Vatican II. That said link is “Tradition in Action” and would led you to believe they are the great defender of Holy Mother Church, when in reality they are hoping to turn you against the above popes and Vatican Council II. Granted, I do believe V II did create a lot of confusion & some problems, but I do believe Pope Benedict is & will right any wrongs done.
This is a VERY TRUST WORTHY site for reviews of most links you will find post-ed on these forums. Note, this link is a review of “TIA”…
catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=3026&repos=2&subrepos=&searchid=217369
Now, if you believe this forum site (CAF) is owned and managed by TRUST WORTHY folks, which I do, then they will back up my claim of Catholic Culture to be a trust worthy site!

I don’t know how old you are & if you are a cradle Catholic or convert, but if you are not that learned in the faith and want to find more of what the Church teaches, then I think a better sub forum for you would be Liturgy and Sacraments, Catholic Living & Ask an Apologist.

Other good sites are the home of this forum at catholic.com/
Their library is really good.
Another is
jimmyakin.org/
Mr.Akin is the head apologist for Catholic Answers.
If I can be of help, please PM me.
[SIGN]God bless you![/SIGN]

Hello Jean Marie. As Like said, this site is a Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, Priest basher. It can be a very confusing and frustrating site, because there are few, if any, Traditionalists on this site that see in less than black and white. So do take Like’s advice and go to the other forums. I am. Peace.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

bear06:

Uh, the Council of Trent and the TLM didn’t achieve this hundreds of years ago. It didn’t bring people back and it didn’t keep people from leaving either. Life in our Church will never be perfect until the Final Judgment! We all need to gain some historical perspective.

I don’t know why you mentioned the council of Trent or the Traditional Mass in response to what I wrote.

What I said is that many saints predicted our current crisis. They also predicted a miraculous restoration of the Church, and the end of all heresies. I realize this has not yet happened, but that is what they predicted would come about. And given the fact that they predicted the currect crisis with great precision, it is reasonable to believe that the restoration they predicted will also come to pass.

 

[elt1956]

Let me rephrase it: The glorious restoration will result in the end of all of the Protestant heresies and an end to the heretical and schismatic Orthodox church. These groups, whose heresies are a mortal sin against the first commandment, will realize their error, renounce it, and return to the Catholic Church that their early leaders left, to their own perdition.

The prophecies I have been speaking of do indeed say that all heresies will cease, which means all who claim to be Christian will indeed be real Christians - Roman Catholics.

Personally, I don’t think we are there yet. And Protestants simply adding Catholic things is not enough. They must renounce all their heresies (and there are probably too many to mention), and return to the Catholic Church. They must “convert” and become Roman Catholics.

The problem is that ecumenism today does not seek the return of the heretics and schismatics to the true Church. Instead, they are seeking to unite the true Church with heretical sects - fire with water, light with darkness, Christ with Bilial.

There is already only One True Church. What I hope you mean is that the heretics will renounce their error and return to this Church. If that is what you mean, I think you do have much reason to hope.

Birth pangs dyspepsic, Birth pangs. You remember those, don’t you?