Anyone Else Find Vatican II's Efforts for Ecumenism Ironic?

[Like]

Hello Jean Marie. As Like said, this site is a Pope, Cardinal, Bishop, Priest basher. It can be a very confusing and frustrating site, because there are few, if any, Traditionalists on this site that see in less than black and white. So do take Like’s advice and go to the other forums. I am. Peace.

I’m sorry if that is the impression I left. I’m a Traditionalist & I think just a few here are what I call Radical Traditionalist. To me that is those whom you speak about above. Those few can surly work on your faith in the Church, just as I think it was working on Jean Marie. At the very least it was confusing here.
It must have been my wording of my original post because brotherhrolf didn’t understand what I was saying.

I left the Church for 30 + yrs. because of the new Mass. I’m a 68 yrs.old cradle Catholic and have NEVER stopped believing in HMC, BUT came to realize a few years ago that I was wrong and my soul was in peril. Actually, I started back when John Paul II passed away, & had always loved him. That’s why I feel to duty to post here, when he and other recent popes are being belittled and called heretics.

If it were at all possible I would attend only the TLM, but since it isn’t possible, I attend the OF (NO), which I do BELIEVE is VALID!!!

 

[pnewton]

I find no irony in ecumenical efforts at all. There is a great deal of ignorance of Catholics that is being redressed through ecumenical activities. As far as divisions being present, as they always have, that is a separate issue. Lack of knowledge is not a factor. In some cases sins of the flesh prevail, in some cases, pride.

And he told them this parable: “There once was a person who had a fig tree planted in his orchard, and when he came in search of fruit on it but found none, he said to the gardener, ‘For three years now I have come in search of fruit on this fig tree but have found none. (So) cut it down. Why should it exhaust the soil?’
He said to him in reply, ‘Sir, leave it for this year also, and I shall cultivate the ground around it and fertilize it; it may bear fruit in the future. If not you can cut it down.’” - Luke 13:6

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I find no irony in ecumenical efforts at all. There is a great deal of ignorance of Catholics that is being redressed through ecumenical activities.

Kasper: “The decision of Vatican II to which the Pope [John Paul II] adheres is absolutely clear: Today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘catholics.’ This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.”

Are you saying you don’t have a problem with that?

 

[lak611]

The words of consecration are different, for one. I’d think that would be of utmost importance to a devout Catholic.

They changed it from “for you and for many” (pro vobis et pro multis) to “for you and for all men” (pro vobis et pro omnis). You might not think that makes much difference, but according to Catholic traditional theology, it does.

Does a Jew have to tell you this?

A new English translation is in the works right now. Pro multis will be translated as “for many” in the new version that might be out next year.

 

[pnewton]

Kasper: “The decision of Vatican II to which the Pope [John Paul II] adheres is absolutely clear: Today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘catholics.’ This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.”

Are you saying you don’t have a problem with that?

Nope, at least not neccessarily. It would depend on the context and further understanding of the position. That is why I try not to interpret every sentence made by every Cardinal for myself. That would nuttier and more divisive than sola scriptura.

I can see some hypothetical wisdom in an ecumenism that seeks understanding rather than conversion, though. Perhaps that is what is being said. In any case, such discussions are beyond my level and I give them little thought. My issues on the subject are how to deal with the individuals I know. There are many cases where understanding can be the only goal, at least for now.

 

[bear06]

I don’t know why you mentioned the council of Trent or the Traditional Mass in response to what I wrote.

Mainly because I didn’t read back far enough! Mea culpa!

What I said is that many saints predicted our current crisis. They also predicted a miraculous restoration of the Church, and the end of all heresies. I realize this has not yet happened, but that is what they predicted would come about. And given the fact that they predicted the currect crisis with great precision, it is reasonable to believe that the restoration they predicted will also come to pass.

 

[fdmilkis]

door is for both entering and exiting. Vatican II opened the door

 

[HelenRose]

door is for both entering and exiting. Vatican II opened the door

And I walked in!

 

[holdencaulfield]

And I walked in!

However more people walked out than in. It also was not good for the faith.

New Rite of Exorcism

 

[bear06]

However more people walked out than in. It also was not good for the faith.

What are your stats on this?

 

[pnewton]

However more people walked out than in. It also was not good for the faith.

I think that would depend on why people walked out. After all Jesus had people walk out on Him. I also do not take it a given that more have walked out. The last figures I saw from the Vatican showed an increase the total number of Catholics and a decline in the percentage. I believe it was in Karl Keatings last eletter that said the number of converts versus those leaving were in equlibrium.

 

[HelenRose]

However more people walked out than in. It also was not good for the faith.

New Rite of Exorcism

Do not be afraid. It is in God’s hands. God is more than capable of providing for His flock and knowing what is good for His Church.

I am grateful that I found my way home and believe that there will be many more coming home. It is very hard to know cause and effect when looking back in time. We don’t know what the situation would have been if there had not been Vatican II. It may have been better but then again maybe not. We can’t know the will of God by speculating on the “what ifs”. We can only go forward with our Pope and Magistrium and do the best with what the Holy Spirit gives us to do.

Nothing happens unless it is God’s will.

 

[holdencaulfield]

What are your stats on this?

I can’t find it, however it was something that only 25% of priests actually believed in Transubstantiation. Found it on FE

 

[bear06]

I can’t find it, however it was something that only 25% of priests actually believed in Transubstantiation. Found it on FE

And where did FE get their stats? It would be rather hard to take a poll on this and get an accurate stat. Also, how would this stat play into the stats on people leaving the Church? We may or may not find the way John Paul II dealt with ecumenism appealing. That said, after years his ecumenism with the protestants, he probably had more mass conversions under his watch than any other pope since Trent. He seemed to get them primed and ready and when their church did something like ordain women or gays, they came to the Catholic Church not some protestant denomination.

 

[holdencaulfield]

And where did FE get their stats? It would be rather hard to take a poll on this and get an accurate stat. Also, how would this stat play into the stats on people leaving the Church? We may or may not find the way John Paul II dealt with ecumenism appealing. That said, after years his ecumenism with the protestants, he probably had more mass conversions under his watch than any other pope since Trent. He seemed to get them primed and ready and when their church did something like ordain women or gays, they came to the Catholic Church not some protestant denomination.

I don’t know, Oh well. I wish I could find it.

 

[I_Believe]

Don’t you mean “One Holy and Apostolic** Catholic **Church”
With the Pope as it head?

Some things are hard to leave behind. Especially if those things make great life jackets while one is floating in the middle of the Tiber.

 

[Cat]

And where did FE get their stats? It would be rather hard to take a poll on this and get an accurate stat. Also, how would this stat play into the stats on people leaving the Church? We may or may not find the way John Paul II dealt with ecumenism appealing. That said, after years his ecumenism with the protestants, he probably had more mass conversions under his watch than any other pope since Trent. He seemed to get them primed and ready and when their church did something like ordain women or gays, they came to the Catholic Church not some protestant denomination.

We have met quite a few converts in our parish with this exact story. Many came out of mainline churches because they were disgusted with the decisions to ordain women, gays, or justify abortion. The Catholic Church was a more appealing option for them than the evangelical, fundamental, or Pentecostal churches.

I don’t think Vatican II is the reason people left. I think people leave the Catholic Church because they don’t want to submit to the Church’s teachings on abortion, birth control, divorce, sex outside of marriage, homosexuality, women priests, etc. These are hard teachings for many to accept. I know many ex-Catholics who have rejected their church for these reasons.

Up until the time of Vatican II, most Protestant churches taught the same “morals” as the Catholic Church when it came to the issues that I mentioned above, and they were even stricter when it came to such things as use of alcohol, dancing, wearing makeup, going to movies, etc.

But sometime in the 1970s, many Protestant churches started backing away from strict moral teachings. The United Church of Christ was the first to ordain women and homosexuals. Many Protestant churches followed and the time-honored moral teachings began to crumble. I grew up in the Conference Baptist churches, and birth control wasn’t even questioned, along with masturbation. These were “normal” and “healthy” activities.

Now even the evangelical churches are relaxing the moral teachings. There are very few evangelical churches that still forbid makeup, dancing, movies, and alcohol. (Although the Assemblies of God still forbids dancing.)

And the other teachings are crumbling, too. The Evangelical Free Church in America that we attended had a woman pastor (children’s pastor). And although the evangelical churches are still forbidding abortion, the stats demonstrate that about 1 out of 6 abortions are done on women who claim “evangelical Christian” as their religion.

I think that evangelicals are headed down the slippery slope and they will eventually go the way of the mainlines. Much of this will happen because evangelical churches must constantly attract new members in order to remain viable (profitable). They will eventually have to relax their moral constraints to draw in the numbers.

When this happens, look for a mass exodus of evangelicals into the Catholic Church!

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

pnewton:

I find no irony in ecumenical efforts at all. There is a great deal of ignorance of Catholics that is being redressed through ecumenical activities.

Pax et Caritas:

Kasper: “The decision of Vatican II to which the Pope [John Paul II] adheres is absolutely clear: Today we no longer understand ecumenism in the sense of a return, by which the others would ‘be converted’ and return to being ‘catholics.’ This was expressly abandoned by Vatican II.”

Are you saying you don’t have a problem with that?

Pnewton:

Nope, at least not neccessarily.

Now I understand. Your last reply explains your first reply. You think that the modern day ecumenism is fine.

I knew it was only a matter of time before that statement of Cardinal Kasper – which is clearly heretical and which no one even tried to defend – would become perfectly acceptable, and even “mainstream”.

I’ve seen the pattern over and over again. An outrageous statement would be made by some member of the hierarchy, which would be quoted as an example of how far the apostasy had gone. Later, the shock would wear off and the apostasy would move further ahead; finally things would have moved so far “left” that the previously shocking statement would be no big deal – and even mainstream.

I have no doubt that if a high ranking Cardinal came out and said Jesus is not God, this would send shockwaves through the Church. Then, 10 years later, when the center had moved farther left, this statement would be accepted as “no big deal”.

Based on that, your statements actually don’t surprise me. Sadden me, yes. Surprise me, no.

 

[agr4028]

I loved the post about Humanae Vitae having as much to do with a decline in Catholic numbers, as compared to blaming Vatican II.

Good to see an objective view.

 

[pnewton]

Now I understand. Your last reply explains your first reply. You think that the modern day ecumenism is fine.

Then perhaps you misunderstand. The reason the statement didn’t bother me is because I am slow to judge someone like Cardinal Kasper based on one statement, lacking context. Also, I do not take the role of judge of the prudence of the Holy Father or the Roman Curia on how such affairs are best to be conducted. I leave that for those who are as educated as they are. There seems to be an over-abundanced of such people here. I only will question Roman in issues over which I have some expertise.

I do not beleive in abandoning all hope of reconciling others to the Catholic Church. I do, however acknowledge that it is often neccessary to start with understanding first. When one deals with and entrenched Protestant faith, a hard-nosed approach only leads to conflict, not conversion.