Anyone Else Find Vatican II's Efforts for Ecumenism Ironic?

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That’s not how all of us feel. I feel for our seperated bretheren, that they don’t enjoy the fullness of faith, but I am glad that even though they don’t enjoy the fullness of faith, that they DO love Jeeeezus (your spelling) 🙂
Well, as I tell my Protestant friends - it’s a good start. But is it enough?

The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a tertian portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. “There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition”…

…If then it be certain that anything is revealed by God, and this is not believed, then nothing whatever is believed by divine Faith: for what the Apostle St. James judges to be the effect of a moral deliquency, the same is to be said of an erroneous opinion in the matter of faith. “Whosoever shall offend in one point, is become guilty of all” (Ep. James ii., 10). Nay, it applies with greater force to an erroneous opinion. For it can be said with less truth that every law is violated by one who commits a single sin, since it may be that he only virtually despises the majesty of God the Legislator. But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honour God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith.
(Pope Leo XII, Satis Cognitum, cf 9 )
DD
 
Modernism stems from the humanism of the 18th century. In this forum, where most of good, solid Catholics, accusations of modernism are nothing more than a strawman, a fake bogeyman that we know is bad, but name-calling always favors rhetoric over substance. I say this from personal experience, as I have been falsely accused of modernism several times in this forum.
Unless your roots are frozen in time, you will always be a modernist. I wonder how the Church got away with declaring the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption, and the Infallibility of the Pope doctrines of the faith. Such modernism!
 
Unfortunately, good solid Catholics can unknowingly absorb tenants of modernism.

The three main prongs of Modernism as outlined by Pope Saint Piux X are: Vital Immanence, the Historical-Critical Method of Scripture study, and Evolution of Doctrine/Dogma.

That last one is the biggie that many get sucked into and espouse on these forums.
I believe the last one is more an argument of semantics. It is undeniable that doctrine or dogma develops over time. Otherwise we would have had no need of any Church councils over the last 2000 years. Nothing new would need to be said. We would not have the Immaculate Conception, transubstantiation or papal infallibility.
 
…You refuse to accept the Constitution on the Liturgy of Vatican 2. Vatican 2 was an infallible General Council of the Church.
I think your bitterness is beginning to affect the neurotransmitters in your grey matter.
…The leaders of the opposition, like Feeney and Lefebreve were roundly condemned and excommunicated.
Despite your somewhat tainted view of these situations and events, your bitter cries are irrelevant. I have not brought these fellas up.
…YET YOU ACCUSE OTHERS OF MODERNISM.
Any such “accusations” are always laid out with much citations, quotations, and reasoning. If I am wrong, please respond in similar fashion in your rebuttal.

You just look like a crank otherwise.
. You have some nerve. By your own words you are condemned.
Alrightythen.

Now how’s about that hug?

DD
 
I believe the last one is more an argument of semantics. It is undeniable that doctrine or dogma develops over time. Otherwise we would have had no need of any Church councils over the last 2000 years. Nothing new would need to be said. We would not have the Immaculate Conception, transubstantiation or papal infallibility.
It’s a subtle difference between development of doctrine and evolution of doctrine. One is accepted and true, the other is condemned and false.

It is subtle, which is why alot of folks get sucked into it.

DD
 
Unless your roots are frozen in time, you will always be a modernist. I wonder how the Church got away with declaring the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption, and the Infallibility of the Pope doctrines of the faith. Such modernism!
Again demonstrating that you have not the faintest idea what modernism is.

But then a fish probably couldn’t define water either.

DD
 
Likewise, the historical-critical method is a broad term. On the simplest level, it is indispensible. After all, syntax can only be gleaned from historical evaluation of contemporary writtings. Likewise, the context of scripture must be examined, the author, the audience and the style. If not, we become like the KJV only crowd who treat scripture almost like a book of magic spells, taking each scripture indepently and applying in willy nilly.

On the other hand, what was prevelant at the time of Pius X was the de-mythological movement, which took scripture in the context of fanciful exaggerations. That is because the true root of modernism is deism - downplaying the supernatural and trying to explain everything in human terms.
 
It’s a subtle difference between development of doctrine and evolution of doctrine. One is accepted and true, the other is condemned and false.
I agree, but it is that very subtlety that makes the term largely meaningless. As I just stated, it is the root of our approach that determines the difference. Are we trying to change doctrine to meet our needs, or those of the modern world? Or are we trying to understand truth as God reveals it to us?
 
Modernism stems from the humanism of the 18th century. In this forum, where most of good, solid Catholics, accusations of modernism are nothing more than a strawman, a fake bogeyman that we know is bad, but name-calling always favors rhetoric over substance. I say this from personal experience, as I have been falsely accused of modernism several times in this forum.
Dustin’s Dad is the only one who throws that epithet around. And he doesn’t even know what Modernism is.
 
So, it’s all relative ? Relativism is traditional in the Roman Catholic Church ?
I gave you examples of Traditional faith both among those who are already in heaven and those who are still with us.

I do not debate. If you want to call what these holy people believe to be relitavism, then take it up with them.

Church is not here to debate, but to teach.

If you want to learn, learn. If you can’t learn, then wait until your spiritual vessel is large enough to receive.

JR 🙂
 
(continued from above…)
Do you want to see another Traditonal Catholic. Look at St. Dominic. The pope denied his rule for his order and forced him to take the rule of St. Augustin and apply it to his order. Two months later Francis of Assisi came with the rule of his order and persuaded the Pope that he could not change it, becaue it had been dictated to him by Christ himself. The pope believed Francis and approved his rule. I’m sure that Dominic was disappointed. Dominis was a priest and a scholar. Francis was a layman and not as educated. However, Dominic waited to meet Francis and when he met him he prayed with him for the success of both orders. He never mentioned that he Pope had turned down his request and accepted Francis. Dominic obeyed and accepted the humiliation.
Apples and oranges to the present situation. Besides, looking at these two great traditional saints, we can glean more important things…like the following: …The Dominican Order was called to convert persons by speaking to their will through their intelligence. It is clear that part of the Dominican mission is an intellectual work - the study and teaching of philosophy, theology, and apologetics. On the contrary, the dominant note of the Franciscan Order is to move the will through a manifestation of zeal. The great conversions of the Franciscans came about through the consideration of the Wounds of Our Lord, His Passion, His poverty and spirit of sacrifice. Once again, they are harmonic differences that merge in the spirit of the faithful. A Catholic instructed in the arguments of apologetics by the Dominicans should also be touched by the fervor of the Franciscans.
I can show you another traditional Catholic. Brother Charles de Facould who was a Jesuit priest and left the Jesuits to convert the Muslims by living among them without preaching, just praying and opening his doors to them when they came to him. He never surrendered his Catholic faith or his belief in the Church, but he never stooped to insulting the Muslims or treating them condescendingly. He respected them. When a group of rebels wanted to get rid of all Christian Europeans, they entered his house they murdered him.
That’s funny - I don’t see “non-preaching” listed in his bio here - but then, to traditional folks, preaching does not equal “stooped to insulting” or “treating them condescendingly.” If you think it does, perhaps you should take it up with St. Dominic: “Theological disputes played a prominent part in the propaganda of the heretical Albigensians. Dominic and the bishop, therefore, lost no time in engaging their opponents in spirited conversation on matters of faith. Whenever the opportunity arose, they accepted the opportunity to teach and challenge.”
http://www.3op.org/stdominic.php
A traditional Catholic is a Cardinal Sean, who has never given up his Franciscan identity, even when he became a bishop. He continued to live in poverty. A man who only wears his Cardina’s garb when it is absolutely necessary, who attended a consitory of Cardinals in Rome dressed as a Franciscan Brother and presented himself as such to the Holy Father. Who took up three diocese that were heaped in scandal and legal battles over sex abuse, fraud and money laundering and turned them around by going to every group in the diocese and spending time with them as a Brother to them, not as an over powering Cardinal, dressed in the brown robe of St. Francis and sandals. The same robe that his order has worn for 800 years and proclaiming the same message that his founder proclaimed 800 years ago, I bring you peace and come to serve. This is tradition.
Good for him. And of course, traditionalists have no problem with clergy actually wearing habits (we’ll take what we can get!). Of course, in this day and age, “dressing down” can sometimes be a point of pride and rebelliousness. Like a kid who thinks he’s “too cool” to dress up for Mass.
The traditional Catholics that I have met do not waste time targeting each other or other people. They are very prayerful. They love prayer. They love the Church and they want to see the Church as one. The Holy Father means something to them. Even if they don’t like Protestantism, they love the Pope enough to follow his lead to unity with others, esepcially through kindness and good example.
Me too. Pax, I’m sure, would agree.
That’s traditional. What you have described a traditional would never say about his Church, because such words can’t come out of their mouths. That how much they love their church.
He wasn’t talking about The Church - he was talking about certain individuals within the Church.
You’re not being Catholic, because true Catholicism is very mystical and true mystics only bring peace and charity to any situation. Check out St. Jonn of the Cross.
But of course, sometimes, one has to be a wee bit forceful in order to wake people out of their slumber. Think of the Franciscan St. Anthony of Padua , othewise known as the “Hammer of Heretics.”

DustinsDad
 
I agree, but it is that very subtlety that makes the term largely meaningless.
Well, I think it’s an effort and a battle we can’t walk away from - no matter how difficult. Folks can learn. It is extremely difficult when many folks think rejecting modernism is a rejection of microwave ovens and the combustible engine 😉

I think it’s effects are at the root of so many of the Church’s woes today - cafeteria catholicism, religious indifferentism, secularism, - alot of isms are the result of modernism.
As I just stated, it is the root of our approach that determines the difference. Are we trying to change doctrine to meet our needs, or those of the modern world?
And this would be bad. Very bad.
Or are we trying to understand truth as God reveals it to us?
Well, this is what we should be doing, and what we should be explaining to Protestant folks and everyone outside of HMC - but this means explaining the dogmas as they’ve been delivered and infallibly defined.

Too often now, as we’ve been looking at some pretty explicit examples - the dogmas of the faith seem to be thought of as something temporary, secondary, a mere “expression” of some temporary religious sentiment that, while once useful, has since lost its usefulness and are now “barriers” that must be “reforumulated” to “fit” with the times.

Dangerous stuff - and for a variety of reasons.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
DustinsDad
So much nonsense. No Catholics I know are diminshing or watering down the dogmas of the faith.

You are living in Lefebreve Land.

You are the Modernists. You choke when you heard of the General Council of the Church, known as Vatican 2. You refuse to accept the Constitution on the Liturgy, and the changes it put into effect. How sad.
 
Today at spiritual direction, my superior and I were speaking about these topics.

I thought his relfections were insightful. He believes that for some people the Tridentine mass works to bring them closer to God and doesn’t believe that people should be denied whatever brings them closer to God. He compared it the Life Teen mass, how it seems to bring the young people in our parish closer to Christ.

On the other hand, he also felt that many people deceive themselves into believing that the Holy Father is a traditionalist, because he has approved the Tridentine mass. He mentioned how the religious superiors and the bishops have been given autonomy to implement the EF at their discretion. It is not a mandate, it is another oportunity to make use of a means to sanctification for those who would benefit from it. The liturgy is the perfect prayer of the Church in whatever form and Christ’s presence and saving action cannot be diminished by human actions. At most, human beings can make it difficult for others to see God’s saving work. But human beings, even when they commit abuses, cannot stop or weaken Christ’s activity.

He also said that many people can’t tell the difference between a commentary and a definitive statement. The definitive statement in the Motu Propio is the establishment of the Tridentine Mass as the extraordinary form and the GIRM or NO as the ordinary form. This is definitive, because it defines somethng for the time being, until another pope redefines it. It was not meant as an infallible statement either or an eternally binding decree, especially on future Pontiffs. Popes don’t do that their successors.

The rest of what the Pope has to say in that document on the liturgy and the latin and so forth is a commentary. These are his reflections and he is sharing his thoughts with his brother bishops and people should not use them as they were not meant to be used. They were not meant to hammer the mass in the language of the people, nor were they meant to hammer seminarians and priest into studying Latin. The Pope calls people to unity. He does not rule by force, but by reason and prayer.

He said, that the Holy Father never teaches in order to start division, but to unify and anyone who uses his words to divide not only does the Holy Father a disfavor, but also a disfavor to Christ. He pointed to the great schismatics and heretics of the past. It was not Christ who divided, it was those who used Christ’s words to divide. Christ anticipated that this would happen.

On Ecumenism he remembered what Bishop Fulton Sheen had preached and taught. “Ecumenism is not to bring all men to the same church, but to bring all men to Christ in whatever way Christ chooses to bring them. Ecumenism is a call to kneel together and pray for the Holy Spirit to help all of us to remember and undestand Christ’s message. Catholics and others have much to learn about Christ’s will for humanity. What happens after that, only Christ knows.”

Brother said that we should not put words into Ecumenism that are not there or our own goals into it. True Ecumenism is built on love of Christ, not love of Law. Catholics must approach Ecumenism with the same love that John Paul II did, a love for Christ’s prayer that all may be one. How that oneness will look in the end, only the Holy Spirit knows.

The faith of the Church stands as it has for 2000 years. “The gates of hell will not prevail against you.”

As John Paul said, “Do not be afraid.” As the saints say, “Do little things with great love.”

JR 🙂
 
So much nonsense. No Catholics I know are diminshing or watering down the dogmas of the faith.

You are living in Lefebreve Land.

You are the Modernists. You choke when you heard of the General Council of the Church, known as Vatican 2. You refuse to accept the Constitution on the Liturgy, and the changes it put into effect. How sad.
Come here you…
http://bestsmileys.com/hugging/1.gif

Better?

DD
 
…On Ecumenism he remembered what Bishop Fulton Sheen had preached and taught. “Ecumenism is not to bring all men to the same church, but to bring all men to Christ in whatever way Christ chooses to bring them. Ecumenism is a call to kneel together and pray for the Holy Spirit to help all of us to remember and undestand Christ’s message. Catholics and others have much to learn about Christ’s will for humanity. What happens after that, only Christ knows.”
Ask the good Brother if he happens to have a source for this quote. Seriously.

Quoting the words of Bishop Sheen:
“The Catholic Church intolerant.” That simple thought, like a yellow-fever sign, is supposed to be the one solid reason which should frighten away any one who might be contemplating knocking at the portals of the Church for entrance, or for a crumb of the Bread of Life. When proof for this statement is asked, it is retorted that the Church is intolerant because of its self-complacency and smug satisfaction as the unique interpreter of the thoughts of Christ. Its narrow-mindedness is supposed to be revealed in its unwillingness to cooperate effectively with other Christian bodies that are working for the union of churches. Within the last ten years, two great world conferences on religion have been held, in which every great religion except the Catholic participated. The Catholic Church was invited to attend and discuss the two important subjects of doctrine and ministry, but she refused the invitation.

That is not all. Even in our own country she has refused to lend a helping hand in the federating of those churches which decided it was better to throw dogmatic differences into the background, in order to serve better the religious needs of America. The other churches would give her a royal welcome, but she will not come. She will not cooperate! She will not conform! And she will not conform because she is too narrow-minded and intolerant! Christ would not have acted that way!

Such is, practically every one will admit, a fair statement of the attitude the modern world bears to the Church. The charge of intolerance is not new. It was once directed against Our Blessed Lord Himself.

Call this intolerance, yes! That is just what it is-the intolerance of Divinity. It is the claim to uniqueness that brought the blow of the soldier against Christ, and it is the claim to uniqueness that brings the blow of the world’s disapproval against the Church. It is well to remember that there was one thing in the life of Christ that brought His death, and that was the intolerance of His claim to be Divine. He was tolerant about where He slept. and what He ate; He was tolerant about shortcomings of His fish-smelling apostles; He was tolerant of those who nailed Him to the Cross, but He was absolutely intolerant about His claim to be Divine. There was not much tolerance about His statement that those who I receive not in Him shall be condemned. There was not much tolerance about His statement that any one who would prefer his own father or mother to Him was not worthy of being His disciple. There was not much tolerance of the world’s opinion in giving His blessing to those whom the world would hate and revile. Tolerance to His Mind was not always good, nor was intolerance always evil.

There is no other subject on which the average mind is so much confused as the subject of tolerance and intolerance. Tolerance is always supposed to be desirable because it is taken to be synonymous with broadmindedness. Intolerance is always supposed to be undesirable, because it is taken to be synonymous with narrow-mindedness. This is not true, for tolerance and intolerance apply to two totally different things. Tolerance applies only to persons, but never to principles. Intolerance applies only to principles, but never to persons. We must be tolerant to persons because they are human; we must be intolerant about principles because they are divine. We must be tolerant to the erring, because ignorance may have led them astray; but we must be intolerant to the error, because Truth is not our making, but God’s. And hence the Church in her history, due reparation made, has always welcomed the heretic back into the treasury of her souls, but never his heresy into the treasury of her wisdom.

Such indifference to the oneness of truth is at the root of all the assumptions so current in present-day thinking that religion is an open question, like the tariff, whereas science is a closed question, like the multiplication table. It is behind that queer kind of broadmindedness which teaches that any one may tell us about God, though it would never admit that any one but a scientist should tell us about an atom. It has inspired the idea that we should be broad enough to publish our sins to any psychoanalyst living in a glass house, but never so narrow as to tell them to a priest in a confessional box. It has created the general impression that any individual opinion about religion is right, and it has disposed modern minds to accept its religion dished up in the form of articles entitled: “My Idea of Religion,” written by any nondescript from a Hollywood movie star to the chief cook of the Ritz-Carlton.

This kind of broadmindedness which sacrifices principles to whims, dissolves entities into environment, and reduces truth to opinion, is an unmistakable sign of the decay of the logical faculty.

Excerpt from The Curse of Broadmindedness, from the book "Moods and Truths" by Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad
 
I gave you examples of Traditional faith both among those who are already in heaven and those who are still with us.

I do not debate. If you want to call what these holy people believe to be relitavism, then take it up with them.

Church is not here to debate, but to teach.

If you want to learn, learn. If you can’t learn, then wait until your spiritual vessel is large enough to receive.

JR 🙂
I was asking what you meant by your own summary of your post.
Specifically the words “any situation”. I’m thinking of ecumenism of return vs the current error in thinking that those outside HMC can be united with her.

As far as the saints, they were not confronted with an about face on ecumenism. None of the individual situations you describe were submittals to error. It’s all a wondeful testimony to their faith, but doesn’t apply to the matter at hand, and thus is a pretty far fetched basis for saying no traditionalist would ever speak against error.

There is no Salvation outside of the Catholic Church. I can understand why the Church has taught this by picking up any DR bible and reading the words of Christ.

Just my opinion, you are entitled to yours.
 
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