P
pnewton
Guest
Thank you for sharing his insights. It sounds like you have a level-headed and balanced advisor. Please pass on my appreciation.
Anyone Else Find Vatican II's Efforts for Ecumenism Ironic?
- Status
D
dyspepsic
Guest
If these are the words of Bishop Sheen, what an awful statement. He is recommending intolerance, that the Church not speak with other Christians, that we stand alone. He makes the words of Jesuis like rotten meat, “That they all be one”.
What an anti-Conciliar statement. Shame on the Bishop. He was having a bad day, for sure. But that day was back in 1932.
And his sentiments do not convey the sentiments of the Church at the infallible General Council, and its conciliar documents.
I find his sentiments unbelievable.
C
catharina
Guest
Yoo hoo? Take another look at his words IN CONTEXT.
First, there was no Bishop Sheen in 1932. There was Father Sheen, a 37 yr-old priest.
(Thank you for adding the date since DD conveniently left it out.)
Second, Father Sheen was specifically addressing the notion of HMC and her refusal (same refusal is true today) to join in with the then-new federation of churches (e.g., think of the National Council of Churches). He explained that the Catholic Church does not join groups that hold all Christian faiths to be as one without any distinction of form, beliefs, history, traditions, etc…
I agree completely that the quote given by DD was startling - but have found that it was startling only because it was left to stand out of context, without specific reference to the issues of THAT TIME, most notably, the anti-Catholic sentiment in the States that attempted to make HMC the ‘equal of many’ through public pressure.
Even while a very young priest, Father Sheen said “No way” to the rules of that game.
C
catharina
Guest
dyspepsic, please forgive me if this addition seems harsh.
I intend no harshness.
I think we must become ultra-cautious before we are drawn in by statements (even “quotes”) that are posted here with an apparnet intention to arouse shock and revulsion. I hope that it goes without saying that most would be very hard-pressed to argue (or imply) that Fulton Sheen made any statements that put him at odds with Church Teaching or made of the words of Jesus Christ anything less than holy and true. That a quote was posted without reference to the lived-history of the times should perhaps be enough to warn the reader to think hard.
As in Scripture:
"Ecclesiastes
Chapter 3
1 There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens.
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant.
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build.
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance.
5 A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them; a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
6 A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away.
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to be silent, and a time to speak.
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
D
dyspepsic
Guest
Archbishop Sheen attended Vatican II and participated fully in its meetings and shared its goals, motivations and ideals. He gave up his ‘traditionalists’ notions as expressed in his 1932 jottings.
Too bad DD is not so honest as to quote the good Archbishop after Vatican II.
Go ahead, DD, bring the good Archbishop up-to-date.
J
JReducation
Guest
This is not an opinion of mine. This was stated in an encyclical of John Paul II.
**10. In the present situation of the lack of unity among Christians and of the confident quest for full communion, the Catholic faithful are conscious of being deeply challenged by the Lord of the Church. The Second Vatican Council strengthened their commitment with a clear ecclesiological vision, open to all the ecclesial values present among other Christians. The Catholic faithful face the ecumenical question in a spirit of faith.
The Council states that the Church of Christ “subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him”, and at the same time acknowledges that “many elements of sanctification and of truth can be found outside her visible structure. These elements, however, as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, possess an inner dynamism towards Catholic unity”.[11]
“It follows that these separated Churches and Communities, though we believe that they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and value in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”./B]
newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02uu.htm
The Holy Father John Paul makes several key statements.
- We have a clearer eccesiological vision today than we did in the past. When the Church said that there was no salvation outsde of the Church, it was correct. However, he is saying that today we have a clearer meaning of what the term “chuch” means than did our anscestors before us.
- Since many elements of the Catholic faith can be found in other faiths, then whether they know it or not, like it or not, they are linked to the Church, even if that link is defective, it still is a link. Therefore, they are not outside the Catholic Church as they would like to believe or as many Catholics would like to believe. Truth can only exist within the Catholic Church. When you find truth in another faith community, you’re running into Catholicism. Any truth that you find in another faith community belongs to the Catholic Church; therefore, that faith community is in communion with the Church at least on those points. The communion is not totally shattered. It has been hurt and must be healed. That’s different and the rest of the encyclical goes on to say how.
- He says that God has not refrained from using these truths that are found in other faith communities as a means to salvation for those who believe them. Basically, there is no way that we can put hand-cuffs on God and say that he can’t save those who have only part of the truth or who are only partially united to us. Christ does not function this way.
This is what is happening to us today. Pope John Paul II has presented us with a more developed picture of eccesiology than what we had in the past. So he is not in conflict with his predecessors. He is explaining something that his predecessors did not explain, either because they failed to see it or for other reasons. This is truth that was always there, but may not have been perceived. All public revelaton is complete, but this does not mean that we have a rull understanding of it. We’re still working on our understanding.
JR
**
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JReducation
Guest
Last night EWTN ran Bishop Sheen’s lecture on ecumenism.
He said that ecumenism was not about changing Protestants into Catholics or Catholics into Protestants. He said it was about bringing all people of faith to there knees before Christ, together. After that, the Holy Spirit would decided what would follow.
JR
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Sure. It was pastoral in nature, and the essays are vague and ambiguous enough that one can read them so as not to contradict the deposit of faith.
Sure. He must have been talking about “that other” Church.
I quoted the good Archbishop - period. Charges of dishonesty? Puu-leez.
Actually, providing an actual quote, with actual citations and sources is what I alway strive to do.
Sometimes, I can’t…like I know I heard the good Archbishop say something to the effect of “You can become so open-minded your brain falls out.” Unfortunately, I don’t have the exact source. All I can do is point to you as demonstrative evidence.
Sure, I’ll see what I can do, see if I can find something post VII for ya. And when I do - unlike the unsourced and undocumented modernist paraphrases you’re co-horts here are spewing forth, and like the quotes provided above - you will actually be able to verify that the words attributed to the good ArchBishop were actually uttered or written by the same.
DD
D
DustinsDad
Guest
After searching fultonsheen.com/ and all of his stuff on youtube, and not being able to find a single talk or program on ecumenism listed, and since EWTN’s program schedule doesn’t indicate which program was aired - I’ve emailed them and asked them which # program it was, and/or what the topic was from Friday April 11th.Last night EWTN ran Bishop Sheen’s lecture on ecumenism.
He said that ecumenism was not about changing Protestants into Catholics or Catholics into Protestants. He said it was about bringing all people of faith to there knees before Christ, together. After that, the Holy Spirit would decided what would follow.
JR
If you have any further information on the program (other than more paraphrases) that would be great. Humor me.
DD
C
catharina
Guest
Actually, no, you didn’t quote the good archbishop. You quoted the good Father Sheen. Haven’t we agreed that quoting the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI is not the same as quoting the words of Bishop Ratzinger, or even Cardinal Ratzinger? I’m sure you recognize the differences. Yet you make snide comments about one’s “cohorts” and about people’s brains falling out. Why is that? Why the jabs of sarcasm?Sure. It was pastoral in nature, and the essays are vague and ambiguous enough that one can read them so as not to contradict the deposit of faith.
Sure. He must have been talking about “that other” Church.
I quoted the good Archbishop - period. Charges of dishonesty? Puu-leez.
Actually, providing an actual quote, with actual citations and sources is what I alway strive to do.
Sometimes, I can’t…like I know I heard the good Archbishop say something to the effect of “You can become so open-minded your brain falls out.” Unfortunately, I don’t have the exact source. All I can do is point to you as demonstrative evidence.
Sure, I’ll see what I can do, see if I can find something post VII for ya. And when I do - unlike the unsourced and undocumented modernist paraphrases you’re co-horts here are spewing forth, and like the quotes provided above - you will actually be able to verify that the words attributed to the good ArchBishop were actually uttered or written by the same.
DD
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Fair enough - but hardly dishonest on my part. I always think of him as ArchBishop from the ol’ videos of “Life is Worth Living” I’ve seen. And I have seen enough of those to recognize it is the same person writing those words as spoke in those broadcasts.
Henceforth, I shall refer to the eralier quoted text as the “then Father Sheen”. Cool?
Quite frankly - I seriously doubt the “quotes” and paraphrases that they attribute to the good ArchBishop…always without citations or specific sources. It’s a disservice to the good ArchBishop’s name.
That’s why I am very very interested to see/hear/read such if they actually exist. Though I’m not holding my breath on this, I am looking.
My little stab at humor - as you should have noticed by the following wink.
Perhaps you should ask yourself and dyspepsic that question. I’m rather amused and flattereed by your guys’ attempts at the same toward me. I don’t take such things personally, and I’ve actually grown quite fond of dyspepsic .
I have become reluctant to jostle with you however, you seem to take such jostling the wrong way, and I don’t want to upset you, at least not in the wrong way - (if you come to see the errors of some of your theology that could be upsetting in a good way).
Anyhoo - nice talking to you again. Take care and God bless,
DustinsDad
I
Indyann
Guest
This DVD is playable in ALL regions.
On Good Friday, 1979, a television crew visited St. Agnes Church in New York to tape a news piece. They were so enthralled by the speaker, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, they taped his entire talk. This long lost tape has now been found and digitally re-mastered. It is titled “His Last Words.” Bishop Sheen died later that year.
This is the Bishop at his best: in a pulpit, not a TV studio. It is a new Sheen experience seen here for the first time. The Bishop’s wit and wisdom transcend the years. His words remain a masterpiece of sacred prose and poetry.
“It is not a unity of religion we seek but a union of religious people. We may not be able to meet in the same pew, but we can meet together on our knees as Christians.”
Rev. Billy Graham said of Sheen, “I greatly admired his ministry and his focus on Christ.” Dr. Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral wrote, “He was the first teacher from whom we all learned.”
Actor Martin Sheen chose his name from Bishop Sheen. The Holy Father used his tapes to practice English. The Bishop wrote 95 books and countless newspaper and magazine articles. He was an Emmy winner for his television program, “Life is Worth Living.”
For today’s troubled church, Bishop Sheen is a friend many are seeking to help guide their spiritual journey. With him, we see each sunrise as God’s radiant promise that life is worth living. “God love you.”
500848D
49 min
The quote is used on the description of this DVD.
I am not sure if this is the one that was on EWTN or not, most likely this was not the only time he said this or something similar.
PS Google is your friend
On Good Friday, 1979, a television crew visited St. Agnes Church in New York to tape a news piece. They were so enthralled by the speaker, Bishop Fulton J. Sheen, they taped his entire talk. This long lost tape has now been found and digitally re-mastered. It is titled “His Last Words.” Bishop Sheen died later that year.
This is the Bishop at his best: in a pulpit, not a TV studio. It is a new Sheen experience seen here for the first time. The Bishop’s wit and wisdom transcend the years. His words remain a masterpiece of sacred prose and poetry.
“It is not a unity of religion we seek but a union of religious people. We may not be able to meet in the same pew, but we can meet together on our knees as Christians.”
Rev. Billy Graham said of Sheen, “I greatly admired his ministry and his focus on Christ.” Dr. Robert Schuller of the Crystal Cathedral wrote, “He was the first teacher from whom we all learned.”
Actor Martin Sheen chose his name from Bishop Sheen. The Holy Father used his tapes to practice English. The Bishop wrote 95 books and countless newspaper and magazine articles. He was an Emmy winner for his television program, “Life is Worth Living.”
For today’s troubled church, Bishop Sheen is a friend many are seeking to help guide their spiritual journey. With him, we see each sunrise as God’s radiant promise that life is worth living. “God love you.”
500848D
49 min
The quote is used on the description of this DVD.
I am not sure if this is the one that was on EWTN or not, most likely this was not the only time he said this or something similar.
PS Google is your friend
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Thanks - that helps! I should be able to run it down now that I’ve got a title.
Peace in Christ,
DustinsDad
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Got it! - Bishop Fulton Sheen- His Last Words Part I
Talk title: Spectators on and about the cross
*spectators of indifference
*spectators of pain
*spectators of love
Awesome stuff - clasic Bishop Sheen so far …on to part II
DD
(to be continued)
Talk title: Spectators on and about the cross
*spectators of indifference
*spectators of pain
*spectators of love
Awesome stuff - clasic Bishop Sheen so far …on to part II
DD
(to be continued)
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Continuing now…
Bishop Fulton Sheen- His Last Words Part II
…now discussing “spectators of pain”…still awesome stuff - still clasic Bishop Sheen…
(to be continued)
DD
Bishop Fulton Sheen- His Last Words Part II
…now discussing “spectators of pain”…still awesome stuff - still clasic Bishop Sheen…
(to be continued)
DD
J
JReducation
Guest
I wonder if that’s the video they played last night on EWTN, because those words sound very much like what I remember. I wish I had written the quote down.
I’m wondering about one thing that relates to this thread and to CAF in general. His Excellency spoke of a “union of religious people”.
Allegedly CAF is full of religious people, yet there is so much hatred, so much insult being hurled back and forth, so much venum when one person disagrees or questions, as if the human mind were not meant to think.
Are we forgetting the most important reason for being Catholics?
Is it not to achieve sanctity? Is sanctity not achieved through the corporal works of mercy, through prayer, penance, silence, love, patience, trust in God, service to others, love of the Church, the Eucharist and all people regardless of their condition?
Is this how the saints became saints, by bashing each other and other people? Did they becme saints through sarcasm and condescending remarks?
Did Teresa of Avila achieve mystical union of her soul with the Divine through argument and debate or through prayer and silence?
Did Vincent de Paul and Louise de Marillac achieve sanctity through name calling and inuendo or through the perfection of charity?
Did John Paul II achieve greatness and bring millions of young people to Christ by bashing them with the Law or by doing the little things that showed them that he was their spiritual father, such as praying with them, even stopping a liturgy to sing a Polish ballad to those thousands of kids in attendance who later mourned him like children who had lost their mothers?
Is Benedict coming to America with a rod of steel to punish and condemn the Jews or is coming to meet with them as a brother in the faith?
Have we forgotten that in August 2007 Pope Benedict honoured Rabbi Leon Klenicki by making him a Knight of St. Gregory for his contribution to Catholic Theology, the formation of Catholic priests and his contributions to Catholicism.
Rabbi Klenicki has been professor of theology at several Pontifical Universities and seminaries, including the Holy Father’s alma mater. He is a professor and also served during Vatican II to help right the Church’s documents on ecumenism, specifically on Jewish-Catholic relations at the request of Pope Paul VI.
Why would our Holy Father bestoy the title of Knight of St. Gregory, one of the greatest theological minds of the Chatholic Church, on a Jewish Rabbi and allow him to teach theology at his alma mater and other European seminaries and Catholic universities? He worked on the writing of Nostra Aetate during Vatican II.
Maybe holiness is more than just wording on documents. Maybe real holiness is to be found true mysticism. Despite his Jewish faith, Rabbi Klenicki is one of the world’s leading authorities on Catholic Mysticism, especially the works of John of the Cross and Catholic biblical theology.
I wonder if the Holy Father would see any good in all this debate and disrespect on this thread and so many threads where we allegedly defend truth. Would Christ?
JR
D
DustinsDad
Guest
Bishop Fulton Sheen- His Last Words Part III
Great stuff still - and still classic Sheen.
“Spetators of pain” and into the “spectators of love”…
Haven’t heard the given quotes yet or any discussion on ecumenism, but this is some great preaching.
Bishop Fulton Sheen- His Last Words Part IV
Now into the “spectators of love” wrapping up with some powerful words on the Blessed Virgin…
…continuing with Part V next…
DD
Great stuff still - and still classic Sheen.
“Spetators of pain” and into the “spectators of love”…
Haven’t heard the given quotes yet or any discussion on ecumenism, but this is some great preaching.
Bishop Fulton Sheen- His Last Words Part IV
Now into the “spectators of love” wrapping up with some powerful words on the Blessed Virgin…
…continuing with Part V next…
DD
C
catharina
Guest
This might be one of those threads where the title set the tone. Attempts to lower the levels of mockery, to instill good will into the exchanges, prove to be most difficult on threads like these.
C
catharina
Guest
My own thought is that this other type of exchange, such as seen in this thread, is based more in a growing Western disrepect of things that are held holy.I wonder if that’s the video they played last night on EWTN, because those words sound very much like what I remember. I wish I had written the quote down.
I’m wondering about one thing that relates to this thread and to CAF in general. His Excellency spoke of a “union of religious people”.
Allegedly CAF is full of religious people, yet there is so much hatred, so much insult being hurled back and forth, so much venum when one person disagrees or questions, as if the human mind were not meant to think.
Are we forgetting the most important reason for being Catholics?
Is it not to achieve sanctity? Is sanctity not achieved through the corporal works of mercy, through prayer, penance, silence, love, patience, trust in God, service to others, love of the Church, the Eucharist and all people regardless of their condition?
Is this how the saints became saints, by bashing each other and other people? Did they becme saints through sarcasm and condescending remarks?
Did Teresa of Avila achieve mystical union of her soul with the Divine through argument and debate or through prayer and silence?
Did Vincent de Paul and Louise de Marillac achieve sanctity through name calling and inuendo or through the perfection of charity?
Did John Paul II achieve greatness and bring millions of young people to Christ by bashing them with the Law or by doing the little things that showed them that he was their spiritual father, such as praying with them, even stopping a liturgy to sing a Polish ballad to those thousands of kids in attendance who later mourned him like children who had lost their mothers?
Is Benedict coming to America with a rod of steel to punish and condemn the Jews or is coming to meet with them as a brother in the faith?
Have we forgotten that in August 2007 Pope Benedict honoured Rabbi Leon Klenicki by making him a Knight of St. Gregory for his contribution to Catholic Theology, the formation of Catholic priests and his contributions to Catholicism.
Rabbi Klenicki has been professor of theology at several Pontifical Universities and seminaries, including the Holy Father’s alma mater. He is a professor and also served during Vatican II to help right the Church’s documents on ecumenism, specifically on Jewish-Catholic relations at the request of Pope Paul VI.
Why would our Holy Father bestoy the title of Knight of St. Gregory, one of the greatest theological minds of the Chatholic Church, on a Jewish Rabbi and allow him to teach theology at his alma mater and other European seminaries and Catholic universities? He worked on the writing of Nostra Aetate during Vatican II.
Maybe holiness is more than just wording on documents. Maybe real holiness is to be found true mysticism. Despite his Jewish faith, Rabbi Klenicki is one of the world’s leading authorities on Catholic Mysticism, especially the works of John of the Cross and Catholic biblical theology.
I wonder if the Holy Father would see any good in all this debate and disrespect on this thread and so many threads where we allegedly defend truth. Would Christ?
JR
Insults are hurled, apologies not expressed. Terribly odd.
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
And given the claims of many around as to their complete love of and fidelity to the sacred, unlike the rest of the Catholic Church, this is the true irony.
- Status