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phil19034
Guest
I love any chanting or singing in Latin. Wish my parish did it. I look forward to times I can make a Latin Mass and try to attend concerts at the Cathedral when they have them.
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agapewolf
Guest
My parish sings everything and anything I give them… except chant.
Metered Hymns like Holy God We praise…yup.
Jesuit music…yup.
Haas…yup
Praise and worship…yup. (and to add, most of the time, without even the words in front of them because its so easy and simple). These they belt out the loudest.
Chant? you’ll hear crickets.
I put the music for the Sanctus in front of the books- easy access. practiced before mass 3 weeks in a row, each Lent, for 4 years. They pick up the books, and try. But they don’t sing. Pastor finally nixed it because of it. Now we still do it in English, but they still don’t sing.
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Windmill
Guest
I love chant and Renaissance polyphony. My buddy and I started a men’s gregorian chant group 10 years ago, and the Brazos Valley Schola Cantorum is still going strong with about 10 members (mostly young men who are married). We sing at Masses, weddings, funerals, and other events. Here is a YouTube video of a Mass we sang at:
[youtu.be/eJM-BRdbS3c](
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I think too many people associate chant with something other than what it was designed for: the liturgy. We listen to it in our homes or cars, but it seems out of place in the liturgy because many music directors choose to avoid it at church. That’s too bad. It is not at home on a CD - it is meant to be sung for divine worship.
As far as some saying that it is not as nice as Renaissance polyphony, I think part of that is our love for meter. We like things with a regular beat because that is how almost all of our western music is. Chant is spoken text with notes. There is no tempo, only a tactus, or “pulse”. That is part of what makes chant ethereal, or other-worldly.
The other key component to making chant sound right is having a building with good acoustics. In the good ole days, churches were made of stone, so the reverberation was nice. Chant thrives in this type of setting. It sounds more heavenly. However, in many churches today, the comfort principle reigns, and carpet covers every inch of floor. Also, roofs may have sound-absorbing foam on it, and most pews are cushioned. All of these things absorb sound. So what do we do? We put in speaker systems and microphones. It’s crazy. But people think nothing of it…until you try to revive chant. Chant stinks in mikes and in buildings where the carpet and pews are big black holes that suck in every ounce of effort singers try to give.
Chant is still a big part of church worship, and it is making a big comeback. However, many people who are unaccustomed to seeing it in their churches will invariably fall back on associating it with CDs and stereos because of past experiences.
[youtu.be/eJM-BRdbS3c](
I think too many people associate chant with something other than what it was designed for: the liturgy. We listen to it in our homes or cars, but it seems out of place in the liturgy because many music directors choose to avoid it at church. That’s too bad. It is not at home on a CD - it is meant to be sung for divine worship.
As far as some saying that it is not as nice as Renaissance polyphony, I think part of that is our love for meter. We like things with a regular beat because that is how almost all of our western music is. Chant is spoken text with notes. There is no tempo, only a tactus, or “pulse”. That is part of what makes chant ethereal, or other-worldly.
The other key component to making chant sound right is having a building with good acoustics. In the good ole days, churches were made of stone, so the reverberation was nice. Chant thrives in this type of setting. It sounds more heavenly. However, in many churches today, the comfort principle reigns, and carpet covers every inch of floor. Also, roofs may have sound-absorbing foam on it, and most pews are cushioned. All of these things absorb sound. So what do we do? We put in speaker systems and microphones. It’s crazy. But people think nothing of it…until you try to revive chant. Chant stinks in mikes and in buildings where the carpet and pews are big black holes that suck in every ounce of effort singers try to give.
Chant is still a big part of church worship, and it is making a big comeback. However, many people who are unaccustomed to seeing it in their churches will invariably fall back on associating it with CDs and stereos because of past experiences.
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Rete
Guest
But people associated with guitars tend to make it a performance. I simply don’t think that kind of music reverent. I don’t like to jam during communion. I would prefer contemplative music which does not stand out, distract, or turn the mass into a music concert.
And don’t pretend like you never heard this before. I am hardly the only Catholic not a fan of the guitar mass. It’s nothing personal. I just don’t like it, just as the OP doesn’t like traditional chant.
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agapewolf
Guest
You made it an absolute statement before, and it’s not. I know plenty of guitarists that play for church that would NEVER consider it or play like its a performance or “jam out” So no, the “tendency” argument does not hold either.
I’m not “pretending” anything. It’s completely foreign to all the guitar players I know.
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Rete
Guest
Instead of getting upset about me not liking your guitar mass in a thread where you feel free to talk about how you dislike my chant, let’s see what Vatican II had to say…
So… in the spirit of Vatican II, I think we should see some more respect for chant, since it is “specially suited to the Roman liturgy”.
That’s not to say you can’t have guitar mass too. But does it have to mean that there are hardly any masses with chant, even though a Church council affirms it’s superior position in the mass?
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
So… in the spirit of Vatican II, I think we should see some more respect for chant, since it is “specially suited to the Roman liturgy”.
That’s not to say you can’t have guitar mass too. But does it have to mean that there are hardly any masses with chant, even though a Church council affirms it’s superior position in the mass?
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Cat
Guest
Rete, you’ve joined the conversation on this thread later, so perhaps you haven’t read any of my posts.
I’ll repeat the gist of my posts: There are very few people who chant. There are a few more people who play the guitar.
Windmill posted that he and nine other men formed a schola years ago that continues. TEN men. That’s all. That schola has been around for ten years, and only ten men belong to it. And he said that they sing at Masses, weddings, funerals, and other events. What this implies is that there are no other people in their city who chant. If a parish wants chant, they don’t “do it” themselves; instead, they call up the Brazos Valley Schola Cantorum.
Various church documents make it clear that the guitar is an instrument that can be used in Mass, mainly because the Bishop of any given diocese has the Church-given (therefore Christ-given) authority to determine which instruments are appropriate in HIS location for Mass. The guitar is one of the oldest instruments in the world, and most thinking people nowadays recognize that the guitar is not just a secular instrument.
I play piano, and my husband plays guitar, and frankly, I resent your accusation that those who play guitar in the Mass “tend to make it a performance.” You are way off with this accusation. As I have said before on this and other threads–get to know the guitarists in your parish. I think you will find that they are devout and humble Catholics who are simply using their talents and abilities to SERVE, not “perform for” our Lord Jesus Christ and His people.
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CompSciGuy
Guest
Yeah I’m with you, harmony sounds a lot better than monophony.
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Rete
Guest
I didn’t join the thread later. I responded to an earlier attack on my post that I personally don’t exactly feel thrilled when I see the band show up. Do you want to know why?
Picture me sitting there, praying the rosary. Nearby there is a woman praying for her deceased loved one. Here and there you see people quietly in prayer. Then comes the band twenty minutes before mass and they start jamming away. Can you pray the rosary when people are strumming away on their vintage guitars? I have trouble with that. I am sure lots of other people do too. I know this by the look on the faces of all the people who were quietly in prayer to our Lord before the band showed up. Then during communion, when I want to pray and meditate on the Eucharist, the guitar strumming kicks in. I can’t do it.
That’s why my heart sinks when I see them show up. It’s not personal. I don’t dislike the people who do it. I find it interesting that I have to tolerate this while the mention of it offends the people who think it’s okay to do these things.
Two things would make it a lot more palatable. (1) The band does not show up to practice right before mass or they practice in another room; (2) We use chants (or at least more reverent music) during communion and meditation. That leaves at least two songs where you guys can play your guitars.
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agapewolf
Guest
Oh stop the hyperbole…goodness. No one “attacked” your post. and that’s not what you said. You said that guitars equated to a performance, and I corrected that judgement by saying instruments don’t make something a performance.
And a band can’t practice without you calling it “jamming”. Are there some musicians that play band instruments that view it as a performance and they are “jamming” sure. But not the ones I know, not my experience at all. The particular instrument does NOT mean the musicians are trying to perform, and you automatically judge them so
Other musicians can show up early to practice as well, and be just as distracting.
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Rete
Guest
Yes, they most certainly do create a performance.
Pope Benedict stated it more clearly than I could.
That article which quoted him is a good read, I might add.
Pope Benedict stated it more clearly than I could.
spectator.org/archives/2013/06/17/can-liturgical-music-be-saved
That article which quoted him is a good read, I might add.
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liturgyluver
Guest
I think chant can work well when it used well: for example a chant setting of the Ordinary of the mass can add an air of austerity at Lent, alongside suitable hymns. For sung Vespers the Psalms chanted to a simple chant and ending with a Marian anthem can be both wonderfully atmospheric and inclusive (providing the setting is simple and the music provided for all).
But there are other occassions when a part-polyphonic mass setting (at a patronal festival or great feast) or a modal congregational setting works in fulfilling the church’s expectations for music just as well.
But there are other occassions when a part-polyphonic mass setting (at a patronal festival or great feast) or a modal congregational setting works in fulfilling the church’s expectations for music just as well.
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catholictiger
Guest
the only thing I have against chant is that being in the schola at my seminary it puts a lot more stress on me and I have to put a lot more work it. But I think its beautiful and should be more present in the Church.
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ProVobis
Guest
That’s obvious even at the EF.
But it seems the thrust of Pope Paul VI’s statement to the bishops is to find a way as to integrate into each and every parish, whether it’s a Polish Mass, a Spanish Mass, etc. some or all of what the Vatican II itself has “composed” for the Church together at the same Mass the Vatican has promulgated. Pope JPII and Pope Benedict XVI have also tried to make the Latin chants appealing and it’s up to us to at least be somewhat familiar with them. I don’t think statements such as “I don’t like it” are the answer to the Church’s request that it be sung at the Mass, either at the OF or EF.
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liturgyluver
Guest
I agree. I think the Church could do worse than say that at one Sunday every “Season” everyone should try and chant the Missa De Angelis Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus, and the Credo. Not everyone can, or indeed would, participate (many don’t anyway even in the vernacular) but it might help endue some familiarity with that part of the Church’s music.
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zab
Guest
I like the chant, I like singing the Latin parts of the Mass on occasion. I like the singing of Latin hymns such as, Pange Lingua, Panis Angelicus, Veni Creator Spiritus, and the Benediction hymns O Salutaris and Tantum Ergo. What I am not particularly fond of is when the Latin choir sings the Latin Mass parts, and the Greek Kyrie that are very very very long. It is just repeating the same words over and over and over again. I grew up with the Latin Mass and I don’t ever recall having these parts last that long.
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opus101
Guest
I agree. For a Cathedral, it might be ok, but on the parish level, simple chant seems to work best. For one thing, it encourages more participation.
The more complex chants end up creating one of the same problems associated with the secular-style religious songs…less participation, and a more “performance” oriented feel.
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Salvelinus
Guest
Most places got rid of it, citing the “Spirit of Vatican II” - I asume because the actual documents stated it should remain as the standard.
Now, my local parish is tambourines, guitars and Protestant top 40 hits music…
Thank God I found a more traditional mass later in the afternoon an hour or so away…
Now, my local parish is tambourines, guitars and Protestant top 40 hits music…
Thank God I found a more traditional mass later in the afternoon an hour or so away…
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zab
Guest
That is exactly how it comes across- as a performance!
I agree. For a Cathedral, it might be ok, but on the parish level, simple chant seems to work best. For one thing, it encourages more participation.
The more complex chants end up creating one of the same problems associated with the secular-style religious songs…less participation, and a more “performance” oriented feel.
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maryjk
Guest
As much as I dislike Chant, I also agree.
Our parish has one Mass where chant is the standard, at least twice a month. Sometimes it seems like it is every Sunday. In addition, we add chant to almost every Mass at certain times of the year. And heck, you never know when our pastor will pull chant out at *any *Mass.
I still don’t like it.
But it certainly has a place in our parish.
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