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BettyBoop416
Guest
It’s a matter of taste, of course, but I’m with you. I find it to be boring and monotonous.
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adawgj
Guest
I love Gregorian chant, but I’m open many types of music for Church as long as there is reverence and respect in it
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Trebor135
Guest
I don’t want to drag up unpleasant memories for you.
I listened to the first few minutes of the video you linked to, and it isn’t quite what I had in mind.
YouTube has a lot of material in this area, but not necessarily in the same style as what was chanted at the Divine Liturgies I’ve attended.
If there are any playlists which don’t trouble you, please feel free to share them.
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otjm
Guest
I have both Gregorian chant and Russian chant on my Pandora account; but Pandora keeps throwing in 3, 4, 5 and + voices in, and I can’t move fast enough to eliminate them Maybe I am a snob, but Gregorian chant belongs in a church that has the proper echo time. And not much will drive me over the edge faster than to hear some choir make a slaughter out of Gregorian chant.
Years ago, while in the seminary, I was part of a fairly large group of seminarians who cut a record of Gregorian chant, A group has to be pretty good to do chant properly; but then it approaches a performance. And if it isn’t close to performance quality, it quickly approaches disaster quality,.
Years ago, while in the seminary, I was part of a fairly large group of seminarians who cut a record of Gregorian chant, A group has to be pretty good to do chant properly; but then it approaches a performance. And if it isn’t close to performance quality, it quickly approaches disaster quality,.
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Cat
Guest
I’m an excellent pianist (classically-trained) who plays for Masses on a regular basis. Two years ago, I started taking organ lessons, and I’m capable of playing Bach preludes and fugues, but not for congregational singing or Mass parts for a cantor or choir. I’m getting there. It takes time.
I’m also a convert to the Catholic Church from Evangelical Protestantism.
I will use milder words in this thread so that I don’t offend those who love chant. I respect their opinion and their preference, and I wish for them that they are able to find Catholic parishes that regularly do chant, including Gregorian chant. I think the ideal is for all parishes to do at least one Mass that is primarily chant in order to preserve the heritage of Catholic music and to minister to those who find solace and encouragement for their faith in the ancient music forms.
I really dislike Gregorian chant or any kind of chant, and I would switch parishes if my parish started doing chant as the primary music form in all the Masses on a regular basis. (It probably won’t happen–it was tried a few years ago for several months with absolutely dismal results–Mass attendance dropped alarmingly.)
Call me a “Westerner” if you like–I proudly accept that name! Basically, I dislike the randomness of chant–the lack of melody and rhythm. It sounds like talking, but the words are “spread out and elongated.” I especially dislike it when priests “chant the prayers,” because I can’t see why we would talk to anyone, including God, in “elongated words.” It sounds very unnatural to me. I do realize that the Psalms are all “songs,” but I’ve heard plenty of musical arrangements for the Psalms that are not “chant.”
Some people try to tell me that the unnaturalness is why they like chant–it sounds more “heavenly” to them. Well, not to me. I find chant rather “spooky” and “unheavenly” because it is so often heard in horror movies that I grew up with. I own a murder mystery movie (my favorite actor stars in it) that makes extensive use of religious chant all the way through the movie (the protagonist is a former priest who quit to become a cop).
So when I hear chant, I immediately think, “Ghosties!”
I prefer vocal pieces with a strong melody line (which many of the hymns, both traditional and modern, have).
I think that in the United States, most people need an instrument, preferably a keyboard-type instrument (organ or piano) to sing these pieces, as our music education over the last 30-40 years has produced several generations of non-singers who are much more comfortable being spectators than participants.
People in the U.S. generally have no idea about the proper techniques for singing. They also have developed a “tin ear” and are unable to match pitches–so sad. This essentially DOOMS chant, as the singers must match each other’s pitches in order for the chant to sound good and be music. When everyone sings their own version of the pitch, it’s cacophony–howling cats.
Most U.S. citizens under the age of 40 are incapable of singing any kind of chant (or any other kind of song) due to horrible music education in their schools and families.
In addition, so many people are in terrible physical condition that they don’t have the breath control to be able to do chant without taking constant breaths and breaking up the line of music. It sounds like stertorous breathing.
Listening to well-done chant is bad enough for me, but listening to badly-done chant is excruciating.
And actually singing chant is unpleasant for me–meandering all over the neumes with a congregation of non-singers who have no clue about what they’re supposed to be doing–it’s a test of tolerance for those of us who appreciate music that is in-tune and on the mark. It’s kind of fun with a group of good singers–I love sightreading music, and that’s what singing chant is. But isn’t Mass music supposed to be something higher than musical exercises?
IF Holy Mother Church decreed that chant will be done for all the music in all the Masses in the world, of course I would submit and I’m sure that I would eventually get used to it, although I would strongly petition the Holy See to establish “singing schools” in all the parishes in the United States and make attendance and active participation (actually singing!) in these schools an OBLIGATION for ALL parishioners of ALL ages, especially the generations who grew up in the 1980s through the current year!!!
But I don’t think a decree of “all chant” is ever likely to happen, because I think many of the people groups of the world would also find chant unnatural and unpleasant to their ears. People say that “the Mass music is not about our personal preferences.” Well, that’s true, so we shouldn’t complain about any Mass music that is liturgically-correct, and that includes the hymns!
One more reason why I dislike chant is that I dislike most songs that are not sung in my heart language (which is English). If chant is done, I prefer it to be done in English, but again, most singers massacre the words and sound like pirates or “diphthong” manglers! Not conducive at all to worship for me.
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dshix
Guest
Cat,
I agree absolutely that chant should be sung properly! I, too, am somewhat put off by badly sung chant. Yes, the choirs are still learning and not yet fully accustomed to it, but it is at least slightly painful to listen to while they are not yet up to a certain level.
One thing I definitely disagree with is the idea that Gregorian Chant is random. I, having sung many, many propers, have never, in my life, seen a random chant. Everything is actually quite intentional, and if you are paying attention, you can see how the notes directly correlate to the words. This is not so much the case in English chant, because the words get mixed up in an odd fashion.
It’s funny how you mentioned disliking the drawn-out words in chant, and how you dislike them. This is precisely the reason I dislike English translations of chant sung; because the words don’t make any sense whatsoever with the music, and because the words themselves sound very odd. The Latin words and the music of chant are one unified piece; they are at their most perfect when united properly.
I agree absolutely that chant should be sung properly! I, too, am somewhat put off by badly sung chant. Yes, the choirs are still learning and not yet fully accustomed to it, but it is at least slightly painful to listen to while they are not yet up to a certain level.
One thing I definitely disagree with is the idea that Gregorian Chant is random. I, having sung many, many propers, have never, in my life, seen a random chant. Everything is actually quite intentional, and if you are paying attention, you can see how the notes directly correlate to the words. This is not so much the case in English chant, because the words get mixed up in an odd fashion.
It’s funny how you mentioned disliking the drawn-out words in chant, and how you dislike them. This is precisely the reason I dislike English translations of chant sung; because the words don’t make any sense whatsoever with the music, and because the words themselves sound very odd. The Latin words and the music of chant are one unified piece; they are at their most perfect when united properly.
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maryjk
Guest
For me, it is painful even when they are up to snuff.
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dshix
Guest
Heh, well that’s just too bad.
I won’t go off on a litany on the list of common reasons why it’s painful for you, though, because methinks you probably wouldn’t agree with me anyway.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
That was put very diplomatically.I’m an excellent pianist (classically-trained) who plays for Masses on a regular basis. Two years ago, I started taking organ lessons, and I’m capable of playing Bach preludes and fugues, but not for congregational singing or Mass parts for a cantor or choir. I’m getting there. It takes time.
I’m also a convert to the Catholic Church from Evangelical Protestantism.
I will use milder words in this thread so that I don’t offend those who love chant. I respect their opinion and their preference, and I wish for them that they are able to find Catholic parishes that regularly do chant, including Gregorian chant. I think the ideal is for all parishes to do at least one Mass that is primarily chant in order to preserve the heritage of Catholic music and to minister to those who find solace and encouragement for their faith in the ancient music forms.
I really dislike Gregorian chant or any kind of chant, and I would switch parishes if my parish started doing chant as the primary music form in all the Masses on a regular basis. (It probably won’t happen–it was tried a few years ago for several months with absolutely dismal results–Mass attendance dropped alarmingly.)
Call me a “Westerner” if you like–I proudly accept that name! Basically, I dislike the randomness of chant–the lack of melody and rhythm. It sounds like talking, but the words are “spread out and elongated.” I especially dislike it when priests “chant the prayers,” because I can’t see why we would talk to anyone, including God, in “elongated words.” It sounds very unnatural to me. I do realize that the Psalms are all “songs,” but I’ve heard plenty of musical arrangements for the Psalms that are not “chant.”
Some people try to tell me that the unnaturalness is why they like chant–it sounds more “heavenly” to them. Well, not to me. I find chant rather “spooky” and “unheavenly” because it is so often heard in horror movies that I grew up with. I own a murder mystery movie (my favorite actor stars in it) that makes extensive use of religious chant all the way through the movie (the protagonist is a former priest who quit to become a cop).
So when I hear chant, I immediately think, “Ghosties!”
I prefer vocal pieces with a strong melody line (which many of the hymns, both traditional and modern, have).
I think that in the United States, most people need an instrument, preferably a keyboard-type instrument (organ or piano) to sing these pieces, as our music education over the last 30-40 years has produced several generations of non-singers who are much more comfortable being spectators than participants.
People in the U.S. generally have no idea about the proper techniques for singing. They also have developed a “tin ear” and are unable to match pitches–so sad. This essentially DOOMS chant, as the singers must match each other’s pitches in order for the chant to sound good and be music. When everyone sings their own version of the pitch, it’s cacophony–howling cats.
Most U.S. citizens under the age of 40 are incapable of singing any kind of chant (or any other kind of song) due to horrible music education in their schools and families.
In addition, so many people are in terrible physical condition that they don’t have the breath control to be able to do chant without taking constant breaths and breaking up the line of music. It sounds like stertorous breathing.
Listening to well-done chant is bad enough for me, but listening to badly-done chant is excruciating.
And actually singing chant is unpleasant for me–meandering all over the neumes with a congregation of non-singers who have no clue about what they’re supposed to be doing–it’s a test of tolerance for those of us who appreciate music that is in-tune and on the mark. It’s kind of fun with a group of good singers–I love sightreading music, and that’s what singing chant is. But isn’t Mass music supposed to be something higher than musical exercises?
IF Holy Mother Church decreed that chant will be done for all the music in all the Masses in the world, of course I would submit and I’m sure that I would eventually get used to it, although I would strongly petition the Holy See to establish “singing schools” in all the parishes in the United States and make attendance and active participation (actually singing!) in these schools an OBLIGATION for ALL parishioners of ALL ages, especially the generations who grew up in the 1980s through the current year!!!
But I don’t think a decree of “all chant” is ever likely to happen, because I think many of the people groups of the world would also find chant unnatural and unpleasant to their ears. People say that “the Mass music is not about our personal preferences.” Well, that’s true, so we shouldn’t complain about any Mass music that is liturgically-correct, and that includes the hymns!
One more reason why I dislike chant is that I dislike most songs that are not sung in my heart language (which is English). If chant is done, I prefer it to be done in English, but again, most singers massacre the words and sound like pirates or “diphthong” manglers! Not conducive at all to worship for me.
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That is an interesting point about the randomness. I am curious if you feel the same way about Jazz.
I do. Sometimes I like Jazz but lose respect for it because of it’s randomness and lack of form. Almost as if it needs some rules or form.
I would be interested in your opinion as you are a musician. Do you think jazz and chant have a randomness that to some is not pleasant because it is random and in music sometimes we look for patterns?
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maryjk
Guest
I always think it is funny when you (the general you, not You specifically.) tell people you don’t like something.Heh, well that’s just too bad.
I won’t go off on a litany on the list of common reasons why it’s painful for you, though, because methinks you probably wouldn’t agree with me anyway.
Whether it be music, or a place or food or whatever.
It can never be that that you don’t like it, don’t enjoy it or whatever.
No, it is always because you haven’t “tasted good,” or “heard good.”
I once had someone tell me that because my parents didn’t expose me to good food and allowed me to drink soda, when I was a kid, THAT was why I didn’t enjoy a particular kind of wine.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
That can be true. Some people can just not like something. But you must admit there is a difference between the Olive Garden and eating at a nice restaurant in Italy.I always think it is funny when you (the general you, not You specifically.) tell people you don’t like something.
Whether it be music, or a place or food or whatever.
It can never be that that you don’t like it, don’t enjoy it or whatever.
No, it is always because you haven’t “tasted good,” or “heard good.”
I once had someone tell me that because my parents didn’t expose me to good food and allowed me to drink soda, when I was a kid, THAT was why I didn’t enjoy a particular kind of wine.
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dshix
Guest
I agree; there is no accounting for taste. However, when it comes to things which are important, such as chant (which is given the “pride of place” in liturgical music by the Church, that is, it is the official music of the liturgy [Mediator Dei]) generally it is wise to give it a second chance.I always think it is funny when you (the general you, not You specifically.) tell people you don’t like something.
Whether it be music, or a place or food or whatever.
It can never be that that you don’t like it, don’t enjoy it or whatever.
No, it is always because you haven’t “tasted good,” or “heard good.”
I once had someone tell me that because my parents didn’t expose me to good food and allowed me to drink soda, when I was a kid, THAT was why I didn’t enjoy a particular kind of wine.
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maryjk
Guest
Of course there is, but every time you give me blue cheese? I am going to gag. And no matter how much you dress up raw onions? Same thing.
Some things I just don’t enjoy.
And chant is one of them. I have heard it hundreds of times. And each and every time, it is like nails on a chalkboard.
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EnglishTeacher
Guest
Despite being a simple form of music, much of gregorian chant is surprisingly difficult to sing. So it’s only going to sound good if sung by an experienced choir that knows what they are doing. It would be an awful choice for congregational singing, except maybe in limited doses, such as the response to the psalm.
A good choir singing chant for the introit is a nice start to Mass, very prayerful and solemn. But I don’t necessarily care for it as the primary form of music for the whole Mass.
A good choir singing chant for the introit is a nice start to Mass, very prayerful and solemn. But I don’t necessarily care for it as the primary form of music for the whole Mass.
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opus101
Guest
I love Gregorian Chant, as it seems to form an organic unity with prayer, it can’t really be separated from it, and can’t really be considered, musically, apart from it (unless it is being analyzed theoretically, but even then, it is so closely tied to the text) . I also love other forms of liturgical chant.
Chant seems to be the speech of the soul, the music of prayer. It is not closely tied with the flux of secular music (including classical) and the passing nature of those fleeting styles.The more those styles resemble chant, the more universal and lasting they become, and the more conducive to prayer.
Chant seems to be the speech of the soul, the music of prayer. It is not closely tied with the flux of secular music (including classical) and the passing nature of those fleeting styles.The more those styles resemble chant, the more universal and lasting they become, and the more conducive to prayer.
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opus101
Guest
There is a large amount of chant that is very simple. The chant printed in every missal or missalette is an example of that. Very, very simple, and in a melodic range that is not nearly as extreme as many of our “hymns” (I use the term loosely).
Part of the beauty and prayerfulness of chant comes from this extreme simplicity.
My parish uses the chant printed in the missalette, as well as regular hymns.The chant was gradually learned, and is a great aid in keeping prayer focussed. It lends a sacred reverence to the Mass. This is not a “traditional” Mass, but a regular ordinary form Mass.
The chant seems singable for everyone. The amount of people who sing far surpasses that of my former parish (which had loud music, but most people didn’t sing).
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OraLabora
Guest
Cat, I respect your preferences for church music; chant is not for everybody and I agree that mangled chant is terrible. Complex chants like the Propers from the Graduale Romanum are most likely not very appropriate for most parishes, and for places where it is done the faithful probably won’t make it very much past the simple settings for the Ordinary.
However I feel I need to clear up some misconceptions about chant.
First of all that there’s no melody or that it’s “random”. It is not random. Chant is modal, and once one gets a feel for the modes, one finds melodies and patterns that return. A good example for a melismatic chant, is to look at Graduals in the 5th mode. There is no fixed rhythm though. But there are methods of measuring time invervals between notes so that all choristers arrive on the same note at the same time. This is critically important to well-executed chant. A choir is supposed to be “one voice” so that no one voice dominates above the other. And just as choir comprises a single voice, there are individual differences in “voice” and thus sound, between different choirs. I’ve heard chant in different monasteries and if you give me a CD without identifying its source I’d probably be able to tell if it comes from one of the monasteries I’ve been to.
It’s important to understand a few basics about chant. One, the music isn’t supposed to dominate the Word is. Chant isn’t music with lyrics. It is the Word of God (most chant is drawn from psalm or scripture verses), elevated and enhanced by music. The Word is supposed to dominate, not the melody. The melody is to accent the Word. Knowledge of Latin rules of accentuation, and a rudimentary knowledge of Latin help. Chant also, in addition to the basic melodies defined by the notes, also has a “super melody” where the overall chant rises to a crescendo or descends. You can hear, in properly executed chant, the supplication of a Kyrie or the joy of an alleluia. Chant often doesn’t work well in languages other than Latin because the melody does not place the accents in the right place for say, English or French (which I’m more familiar with).
You mentioned chanted readings; this has it’s roots in a desire for the coloration of the reader to not impacting the interpretation of the reading by subtle introduction of the reader’s bias in the inflections, tone of voice, etc. Catholics have a tradition of not self-interpreting the scriptures.
Another point to mention is that Gregorian chant isn’t just limited to the Mass. It’s also used for the Divine Office (Liturgy of the Hours). Here chant is somewhat different. The modal psalm tones use the same modes; but the melodies are simpler and the antiphons are simpler. The recitation of the psalms is somewhat mechanical and mathematical; the rules at first seem quite daunting (two-accent medians and finales, one accent with x number of preparation syllables…). The “melody” is monotone until the end of the median or finale where it ends on a simple melody (no extensive “extending” of words). But the methodical responsorial chanting of the psalms has a somewhat the effect of a mantra to help one enter into prayer. The Divine Office is also the only place one generally finds hymns (music with lyrics) in chant. They generally are more “musical” than free-flowing melismatic chant such as a complex offertory. Two weeks ago, I attended Vespers (in Latin) at Monte Cassino abbey in Italy, and the community responded to the cantor in the psalmody. It was simply gorgeous (obviously it’s their “day job” so they’re very good at it). Incidentally I also attended Mass there, an OF Mass entirely in Latin, and ad orientem…
Also keep in mind that chant is a primitive form of singing and therefore appears more simple, but as was pointed out, executing it perfectly is difficult. I’ve been chanting with the same choir, or in the same abbey, for 11 years, and with time our voices blend very nicely. But throw together an ad-hoc choir in a parish… or make a parish try to execute chant with little prior preparation and training, and the result is likely to be disastrous which is why I think there’s a backlash.
I’m grateful though, that chant is preserved in monasteries, and that some lay and clerical choirs do a very good job of exposing parishes to it. For instance, our choir rotates around different parishes each month (we sing Mass once a month as well as some other occasions such as funerals or the LOTH).
That said, I think the laity can do very well with some simple chants. For example, at the World Oblate’s Congress two weeks ago I lead some workshops and was a bus leader for bus trips to various monastic sites around Rome. I led the chanting of the simple tone of the Salve Regina and the delegates on the bus did very well. I also led Lauds in Latin Gregorian chant (with French readings, intercessions and collects) on the same bus on one of the trips and the delegates managed that quite well also, I alternated the psalmody with them so they could hear the mode properly and chant it correctly for their verses.
There’s another option for Mass chants as well, the Graduale Simplex that uses psalm modes and many antiphons drawn from the Divine Office. This would probably be much better parish use, much easier to execute at least for those familiar with Latin. The Simple English Propers project also tries to accomplish the same thing in English.
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Cat
Guest
Interesting question.
Yes, I am not fond of jazz. I respect it. I think it is very difficult to do well on any instrument, including voice.
But I don’t like listening to most jazz. It just seems to keep going and going, and it takes forever for the piece to get back to the main melody and the conclusion.
But again, I respect jazz as a genre, and I have a lot of admiration for musicians who are proficient in jazz. I am most definitely NOT proficient in jazz.
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Cat
Guest
Same here. I agree with you.
I’m 56, and I’ve heard plenty of chant, both well-done and badly-done. I think I’ve given it many “second chances.”
I am not trying to persuade others to dislike it. I respect their preference and hope that they can find a Mass that is a blessing to them.
And when I attend a Mass in which chant is used, I wouldn’t dream of standing mute with my mouth clamped shut, with a disapproving gleam in my eyes. Neither would I bow my head and pray and ignore the chant. Rather, I attempt to participate and do my very best to read the notes/neumes and sing them correctly so that others around me who can’t sing would at least be able to enjoy the chant.
With respect, I ask how many of you who dislike so-called contemporary Christian music do the same in the Mass? Sing out with all your heart and do your best to try to learn something from the music, even Marty Haugen music?
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dshix
Guest
Thank you. You described the purpose and place of chant better than I could have.
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