Anyone else not really like gregorian chant?

  • Thread starter Thread starter angell1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I don’t want to drag up unpleasant memories for you. 😦

I listened to the first few minutes of the video you linked to, and it isn’t quite what I had in mind.

YouTube has a lot of material in this area, but not necessarily in the same style as what was chanted at the Divine Liturgies I’ve attended. 😦

If there are any playlists which don’t trouble you, please feel free to share them. 🙂
It’s alright, dear. No big deal! I would never try to avoid helping others with things like that because of past events.

Yeah, most Byzantine chants I have heard are nothing like those I expect to hear. Terribly sorry for not finding a good one for you. 😊

I found this channel, and it has many different types of chants, mostly relating to the Psalms and other services: youtube.com/user/johnvfc/videos If you are still looking for something a bit different feel free to let me know, or PM me. Whichever works best for you. 🙂
 
And when I attend a Mass in which chant is used, I wouldn’t dream of standing mute with my mouth clamped shut, with a disapproving gleam in my eyes. Neither would I bow my head and pray and ignore the chant. Rather, I attempt to participate and do my very best to read the notes/neumes and sing them correctly so that others around me who can’t sing would at least be able to enjoy the chant.
Like you, I try. I never really succeed but I try.
With respect, I ask how many of you who dislike so-called contemporary Christian music do the same in the Mass? Sing out with all your heart and do your best to try to learn something from the music, even Marty Haugen music? 🙂
Good question.
 
With respect, I ask how many of you who dislike so-called contemporary Christian music do the same in the Mass? Sing out with all your heart and do your best to try to learn something from the music, even Marty Haugen music? 🙂
That’s a very good question.

I admit, I find it a challenge to enjoy such music, but I still try to sing it, and try to enjoy it. I’ve even sung along with a strong voice at “rock concert masses.” I do this to quell my internal sense of “music superiority.” I remind myself that this, too, is a form of worship in music, even if it is not a perfect form of it.

The only time I reject contemporary music outright is when it contains something theologically wrong or just plain disrespectful to sacred things, which is very common. Other than that, though, I’m open to trying out new styles.
 
OraLabora,

This was really interesting, and I thank you for taking the time to write it up and post it.

I still stand by my statement that most Americans (U.S.) are not capable of singing even the simplest chant. Between the slurring and sliding, the diphthongs, the “rrrrrss”, the nasal intonation, and the lack of support, it sounds unpleasant.

I’m sorry, everyone, to be so gloomy and nay-saying, but as a pianist, I’ve heard plenty of people singing, and as Ricky Ricardo would say, “Ai yi yi!”

IMO, your post only serves to demonstrate how incredibly ignorant most of us are about religious music and especially chant. I talked at length with my organ teacher yesterday, and he said that there is a great deal of disagreement among scholars about church music and who played/sung what(instrument and/or music lit) and when.
 
i understand why the church likes to maintain it since it’s simple but i personally just don’t like it. i much prefer a nice harmonized 4 part choir. anyone else?
It is ancient music and so very different to our ears and concept of 4 part harmony. I like Gregorian Chant but unless I have sung a particular piece and studied it, a little goes a long way. It has to be sung correctly or it simply becomes awful.

It becomes easier to like and even to love if it is studied and introduced properly.

Also, remember that there are many Gregorian Chants. And like any genre, you may like one piece of music but not the other.

Personally I like to sing in Latin but I do need to understand the words that I am singing so a translation is very helpful.
 
I think that these chants for the Ordinary (in English) are extremely simple to sing.

They are much, much simpler than the “contemporary” settings.

youtube.com/watch?v=4Sc_6tl0wuk&list=PL873E78A9410BE7C6

The videos that come after the above link are a continuation.
Yes, I agree that these are simple chants in English.

I am speaking seriously here, as a person with a lot of experience in accompanying choirs and congregations. Here’s my idea on how these chants could be utilized and assimilated into a typical parish:

PUT 'EM on OVERHEADS during the MASS!

Allow the congregation to SEE the neumes/notes, and to HEAR the recording. I know that at the moment, recorded music during the Mass is verboten. Well, too jolly bad–that directive needs to be stricken from the List of Rules when it comes to training Americans (U.S.) to sing chant. An exception should be made. We have had 40 years of abysmal music education in our schools, which has resulted in at least two generations of non-singers in the U.S. Using recordings of chant sung well will help overcome this inexcusable musical education deficit.

IF my instructions are utilized, I guarantee that the congregation would at least attempt to sing along.

Unfortunately, that’s a whole ‘nother debate can o’ worms in “Catholic culture”. For some unbelievable and frustrating reasons, ,many Catholics are somehow opposed to the use of overheads in the Mass. For some reason, this is considered “not reverent” or “distracting.” And people actually say that the architecture in our beautiful old church buildings is “corrupted” when an ugly overhead screen is put up.

So instead of allowing the people to utilize a great learning technique (visual and audio), what would probably happen in most parishes is that the people would be given a “pew card”, but most of the time, no one would mention it and most people would not know it was in the pews. And then a cantor would sing these chants, but since most cantors in most parishes don’t really know how to sing or how to read neumes or notes, and since most Catholic church sound system were installed by con artists, the congregation would hear an extremely weak and poor rendition of the chant (not like the beautiful singers in the link posted by opus101), and those who hate chant would stand mute and disapproving, and those who like chant wouldn’t be certain of the notes, so they would sing tentatively and breathily, and those who can’t sing at all would mangle it, and the whole thing would sound dreadful, and after a few weeks or months of limping along, the priest would put a stop to it because he doesn’t think dying cats sound worshipful.

Sound familiar to some of you?

So PUT THOSE CHANTS UP ON AN OVERHEAD and LET US HEAR THE DEMO SINGERS who are doing it right! Yes, I’m typing large font because I think this method could turn the tide in FAVOR of using chant in the Mass! :):):).

Of course there are parishes where the cantors DO sing well, and they WOULD remember to direct the congregation to take their pews cards and join in. More power to those parishes. Go for it!

But most parishes don’t have great cantors and people who know a lot about how to sing chant, and therefore would really really REALLY benefit by having the chants UP on overheads, just like this link, and hearing the beautiful singers, just like this link. .

And of course, I would also recommend that the parish offer some classes to all ages on “basic singing techniques that will make our new chants easier and less painful for you to sing.”

op101, I stand by what I have said several times before–as easy as those chants are to read and sing, MOST people–I would say 80-90% of the people in any given parish–will be unable to sing them correctly. They don’t have any idea of what those little circles mean. They don’t know how to produce that lovely flute-like voice in the head (because they sing “pop style,” either belting it, singing in the chest, or singing through their nose). They don’t know how to move from note to note, so they “slur.” They don’t know how to pronounce the English vowels, so they “diphthong” them. They don’t know who to sing “r” (such as in “Gloria”), so they pirate-voice it (arrrrrgh!). And they don’t know how to take breaths and support their singing from the diaphragm…

And most importantly, most people in the United States CANNOT match pitches. In other words, if someone sings a pitch, most people cannot sing it back again. What this means is that the chant would sound cacophonic–everyone singing their own special notes instead of all singing in unison.

I’m sorry, Pope Benedict XVI, who according to the interesting article that ProVobis posted, would like us all to sing Latin chant together in a show of unity. Pope Benedict XVI plays the piano, which helps immensely in singing when it comes to hearing and matching pitches. He’s lived in musical Germany much of his life–music is like lifeblood to many Germans. I don’t think Pope Benedict XVI “gets it” – I don’t think he understands that **Americans don’t know how to sing 😦 **, and therefore, cannot possibly do as he wishes and sing together.

So I think that without some singing classes or lessons, even putting the chants up on overheads and allowing people to hear the recorded singers, we in the United States would STILL fail to be able to sing even these simple chants. Sorry. So sad, I know.

But I do think it’s worth a try, following my instructions and putting them up on overheads, and offering singing classes to help the people learn some basic techniques.

It might just work.
 
One more thing that would help, too, and I know I’m pushing it here. Along with the overheads of the notes/neumes, put up some lovely religious artwork along with each phrase.

This is done in many Protestant churches, and it sounds corny to some of you. But it works!

What happens is that the people associate the singing with those lovely and uplifting art scenes. It would be very helpful for people like me, raised in the 1970s, who associate chant with horror movies. By seeing the beautiful and inspiring art work of Jesus, the saints, heaven, churches, etc., I (and everyone else) would gradually come to associate chant with Christianity and my faith. Remember that many of the “modern” church buildings don’t have a repository of beautiful artwork.

I think that this technique would really help people to sing out and learn the chants and do them well. It would help to bring about that “unity” that Pope Benedict XVI writes about.

FINALLY (sorry to write so much, but I hope that what I’m writing reaches people who are actually in a position to utilize my ideas)–I can see why overheads for many young people are old-fashioned and distracting. So another very good alternative would be to put these chants and the singers online (they ARE online) and actually ENCOURAGE the congregation to take out their iPhones and iPads and and their ear buds, and sing along!!

Right now, it seems that many parishes are discouraging the use of electronic devices during the Mass. Again, it seems to have something to do with reverence. I can’t help but wonder what the reaction was when printed books became widely and cheaply available. I’m sure that everyone condemned them as “irreverent” during Mass. I think we need to get past that, and utilize the technology that is available to us. Just this morning, by clicking on opus101’s link, I was able to hear and sing some lovely pieces of music. What is irreverent about that? Is is more reverent to not sing at all during the Mass?

I personally would prefer overheads because it is large (which is how we want people to sing!) and because it would get the people looking UP rather than down, which would produce a much clearer and louder sound. But if others want computers and ear buds, , that’s better than pew cards.

The point is, getting people to sing the chants. We need to do what works now, in 2013, not what worked back in the middle ages.
 
I like your ideas on helping the congregation to learn the chant, Cat.

However, it is absolutely impossible for recordings of the chant to be used in mass. That would actually render the mass parts (Ordinary, Propers, and responses) invalid, because they are intended to be a prayer. Recordings don’t pray.

What would work would be to get a few skilled chant schola members to sing in mass and accommodate the singing along of the congregation.
 
Yes, I agree that these are simple chants in English.

I am speaking seriously here, as a person with a lot of experience in accompanying choirs and congregations. Here’s my idea on how these chants could be utilized and assimilated into a typical parish:

PUT 'EM on OVERHEADS during the MASS!

Allow the congregation to SEE the neumes/notes, and to HEAR the recording. I(U.S.) to sing chant.
These chants are printed right in the missalette…at least they’re in ours.(Breaking Bread)
The choir needs to learn them first in order to sustain the singing and provide a reference point.

But I have to say, the entire parish sings this with no problem, and since most of them are not musicians, they have learned it by ear. The missalette notation is of no use to many of them, yet they get along quite well anyway.

The melodies are so very simple and singable that it eventually becomes second nature. Repetition is the key. Persistence really pays off. At first, while people are still learning, it will not sound as good…but that’s the same with any other music as well.
They don’t have any idea of what those little circles mean. They don’t know how to produce that lovely flute-like voice in the head (because they sing “pop style,” either belting it, singing in the chest, or singing through their nose). They don’t know how to move from note to note, so they “slur.” They don’t know how to pronounce the English vowels, so they “diphthong” them. They don’t know who to sing “r” (such as in “Gloria”), so they pirate-voice it (arrrrrgh!). And they don’t know how to take breaths and support their singing from the diaphragm…
None of this is essential in the least. It’s simple English. It’s chant .It’s not a performance. It’s prayer. Simple , heartfelt prayer. On the parish level, none of the above is essential in the least. They are not preparing for a recording to be disributed far and wide. They are praying.
And most importantly, most people in the United States CANNOT match pitches. In other words, if someone sings a pitch, most people cannot sing it back again. What this means is that the chant would sound cacophonic–everyone singing their own special notes instead of all singing in unison.
It’s not true that most people cannot match pitches. And my parish does not sound cacaphonic at all. And if some people here and there are not matching pitches properly, who cares? That’s not what it’s all about. For a choir that leads the congregation, that would be important, but certainly not for everyone else.

Some musicologists say that’s how medieval organum began anyway! The differences in male, female, young and old voices varies by a 4th or 5th…the inability to "match"pitches may have resulted in organum!🙂
I’m sorry, Pope Benedict XVI, who according to the interesting article that ProVobis posted, would like us all to sing Latin chant together in a show of unity. …I don’t think Pope Benedict XVI “gets it” – I don’t think he understands that **Americans don’t know how to sing 😦 **, and therefore, cannot possibly do as he wishes and sing together.
It’s not Pope Emeritus Benedict who doesn’t “get it”.
Not being able to sing to your standard does not negate “unity” of heart and mind. Anyway, the unity he was speaking of had to do with language - and , yes, from experience I can say that he’s right. When attending Mass in another language, it’s a unifying factor to be able to chime in with everybody else(in Latin) for the ordinary parts of the Mass.
So I think that without some singing classes or lessons, even putting the chants up on overheads and allowing people to hear the recorded singers, we in the United States would STILL fail to be able to sing even these simple chants. Sorry. So sad, I know.
Well, my small rural parish has definitely proved you wrong.
Even a young child who can sing “Naaa nana Naaa Naaa” can chant. It’s connatural with being human.

Singing classes are not necessary at all, although some people might like that.
It might just work.
It *does *work…and without any panicking or negative underestimating of humanity’s ability to do what comes naturally. Perseverance and repetition are the key. A choir to sustain it all helps, too.
 
@ Cat:
I think you’re right about the helpfulness of hearing/listening to the chant. We have to develop an ear for it, and this can be done by listening to a choir that already knows the melody. Listening, repetition and persistence…along with taking it one small step at a time…works wonders.
 
I like your ideas on helping the congregation to learn the chant, Cat.

However, it is absolutely impossible for recordings of the chant to be used in mass. That would actually render the mass parts (Ordinary, Propers, and responses) invalid, because they are intended to be a prayer. Recordings don’t pray.

What would work would be to get a few skilled chant schola members to sing in mass and accommodate the singing along of the congregation.
Where exactly do you dig up “a few skilled chant schola members”? :confused:

If you had these, you would probably have chant done on a regular basis in your parish.

The point is, there are no “skilled chant scholar members” in many areas of the United States.
 
I’m sorry, Pope Benedict XVI, who according to the interesting article that ProVobis posted, would like us all to sing Latin chant together in a show of unity. Pope Benedict XVI plays the piano…
For the record he wasn’t the first Pope who has tried that. It seems the Pope who allowed the “all-vernacular” Mass later “asked” the bishops to introduce Jubilate Deo to all the parishes.
It [Jubilate Deo] was prepared, the Pope said, in order “to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living tradition of the past. Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing cannot refuse Gregorian chant the place which is due to it” (Voluntati Obsequens).
“Would you therefore, in collaboration with the competent diocesan and national agencies for the liturgy, sacred music and catechetics, decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of Jubilate Deo and of having them sing them…. You will thus be performing a new service for the Church in the domain of liturgical renewal” (Voluntati Obsequens).
adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html
 
I like it but sparingly, and I prefer the Eastern Orthodox choral music (not sure of its relation to Western chant) on purely aesthetic grounds.

I’m not sure what kinds of scales or modes are used, but they probably have nothing to do with the ones modern music uses. The melodies don’t “go” where you would expect them to “go.”

In general I think some individuals have more tolerance for exotic-sounding music than others, just like some people are willing to try cuisines that are outside their experience while others aren’t. I’ve always loved Middle Eastern music for example with those bizarre-sounding (to us) scales.
 
Where exactly do you dig up “a few skilled chant schola members”? :confused:

If you had these, you would probably have chant done on a regular basis in your parish.

The point is, there are no “skilled chant scholar members” in many areas of the United States.
And even when you have those that are skilled, they don’t pass that skill to others. 🤷

We have a number of “skilled chant Schola members.” In my opinion, it still sounds awful at Mass.
 
Where exactly do you dig up “a few skilled chant schola members”? :confused:

If you had these, you would probably have chant done on a regular basis in your parish.

The point is, there are no “skilled chant scholar members” in many areas of the United States.
You’d be surprised: they are everywhere. Further, you can often get a chant master or director to move to your parish if the Priest is willing to provide them with an income and a set of volunteers that are willing to learn.
And even when you have those that are skilled, they don’t pass that skill to others. 🤷

We have a number of “skilled chant Schola members.” In my opinion, it still sounds awful at Mass.
And now, you’re jumping to conclusions. I normally respect your opinions, as they are usually made with care and precision, but to generalize all chant singers in such a way is both uneducated and needlessly spiteful.
 
And now, you’re jumping to conclusions. I normally respect your opinions, as they are usually made with care and precision, but to generalize all chant singers in such a way is both uneducated and needlessly spiteful.
What my statement said, was that simply because someone can sing/pray in chant, that doesn’t mean that they can pass that knowledge to others. Not everyone is a great teacher.

And I know for a fact, that our Schola hasn’t been able to pass that knowledge on to our parishioners. Sorry, as I said, in my opinion, it sounds awful. And I am good friends with the Schola leader. Our kids grew up together. But I still don’t like how she sings. 🤷

I know that our Mass that has the Schola is the least attended Mass. I also know that our pastor receives the most complaints concerning music from that same Mass. So it isn’t just me that feels the way I do.
 
I prefer mass with chant. When I see people walking in with their guitars, I have to admit my heart sinks. I am not a fan of the band. It’s nothing personal, but I don’t think it very reverent or complimentary to the mass. It turns the mass into a music performance and a distracting one. The best is when it’s just our choir director singing chants.
particular instruments don’t make something “a music performance”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top