Anyone else uneasy about annulments?

[GraceDK]

I just realized that GraceDK is posting from Europe. Grace might it be possible that you are not keeping an open-mind to the fact that you are trying to understand a culture that you are not currently immersed in and making some pretty harsh judgements on it?

Actually the problem is also pretty serious in Europe, however the numbers are crazy in America compared to everywhere else in the world… by the way, not because the marriage preparation is worse in the States than over here. In fact it seems like Americans have a lot of great RCIA classes, good priests and resources in their language available to them, whereas if you live in a very agnostic diaspora like some of us, you don’t have those things to that degree.

I read articles about statistics, alas also from people who agree with my oppinion, and I still do choose to listen to my canon lawyer from Rome who has been working with tribunals with anullment cases for decades, has quite alot of contacts who are also working in that field, and who blatantly admitted when asked, that yes, there is an abuse problem going on. Especially in America but also in Europe.

By the way… since most people on CAF are Americans and some of them have made it clear that they expect to be granted annullments, or encouraging others to have them, including me having met many Americans in real life… yes ma’am I do have an oppinion… and this thread has made me convinced that your “culture” has somewhat a taboo when it comes to this issue.

Could it be that you are not openminded and that maybe the judgemental person here is you?

 

[joanofarc2008]

Actually the problem is also pretty serious in Europe, however the numbers are crazy in America compared to everywhere else in the world… by the way, not because the marriage preparation is worse in the States than over here. In fact it seems like Americans have a lot of great RCIA classes, good priests and resources in their language available to them, whereas if you live in a very agnostic diaspora like some of us, you don’t have those things to that degree.

I read articles about statistics, alas also from people who agree with my oppinion, and I still do choose to listen to my canon lawyer from Rome who has been working with tribunals with anullment cases for decades, has quite alot of contacts who are also working in that field, and who blatantly admitted when asked, that yes, there is an abuse problem going on. Especially in America but also in Europe.

By the way… since most people on CAF are Americans and some of them have made it clear that they expect to be granted annullments, or encouraging others to have them, including me having met many Americans in real life… yes ma’am I do have an oppinion… and this thread has made me convinced that your “culture” has somewhat a taboo when it comes to this issue.

Could it be that you are not openminded and that maybe the judgemental person here is you?

No ma’am I have been very open-minded and I myself almost did not apply for the decree of nullity and that is what you get for making assumptions. However, It was in speaking to Canon lawyers and priests that in even an Archbishop about my case that convinced me that I was doing the right thing. Now, that being said it is easy to find sources that say what you want them to say if that is what you expect to hear. Now, if you have actually been in faith formation classes where the students have trouble reading some of the literature for themselves and at ten years old they find it appropriate to chase girls while their parents doubt that they really have a need to bring them at all - why can’t just show up for their Sacraments- then I can promise you that you would have a much different perspective on what qualifies as good formation for marriage.

 

[mini_me640]

Actually the problem is also pretty serious in Europe, however the numbers are crazy in America compared to everywhere else in the world… by the way, not because the marriage preparation is worse in the States than over here. In fact it seems like Americans have a lot of great RCIA classes, good priests and resources in their language available to them, whereas if you live in a very agnostic diaspora like some of us, you don’t have those things to that degree.

I read articles about statistics, alas also from people who agree with my oppinion, and I still do choose to listen to my canon lawyer from Rome who has been working with tribunals with anullment cases for decades, has quite alot of contacts who are also working in that field, and who blatantly admitted when asked, that yes, there is an abuse problem going on. Especially in America but also in Europe.

By the way… since most people on CAF are Americans and some of them have made it clear that they expect to be granted annullments, or encouraging others to have them, including me having met many Americans in real life… yes ma’am I do have an oppinion… and this thread has made me convinced that your “culture” has somewhat a taboo when it comes to this issue.

Could it be that you are not openminded and that maybe the judgemental person here is you?

Anyone can read articles and find people who support their opinion. It still remains unanswered why you consider your own opinion more valid than those who have been given authority from God to make the decisions and who have the full facts on the individual cases.

 

[Joe_5859]

Again, I cannot recommend highly enough the article [Annulments in America (http://www.canonlaw.info/a_annulments.htm). It responds specifically to the charges that…

• The number of annulments has increased dramatically
• A high percentage of petitions are granted
• American tribunals are disproportionately active

…in regards to these facts being used as evidence that there is widespread abuse of the system. The article gives some pretty common sense explanations which go a long way towards answering most of the common objections.

 

[hurting]

No ma’am I have been very open-minded and I myself almost did not apply for the decree of nullity and that is what you get for making assumptions. However, It was in speaking to Canon lawyers and priests that in even an Archbishop about my case that convinced me that I was doing the right thing. Now, that being said it is easy to find sources that say what you want them to say if that is what you expect to hear. Now, if you have actually been in faith formation classes where the students have trouble reading some of the literature for themselves and at ten years old they find it appropriate to chase girls while their parents doubt that they really have a need to bring them at all - why can’t just show up for their Sacraments- then I can promise you that you would have a much different perspective on what qualifies as good formation for marriage.

The text in bold above does not necesarily strengthen the argument that there are not a great many invalid annulments. One would expect to get assurances from U.S. (and apparently many European) members of the Church hierarchy as to the appropriateness of the pursuit of an annulment precisely because they maintain a low threshold for proving invalidity.

 

[Ubenedictus]

This topic scares me, annulments???.

 

[mini_me640]

This topic scares me, annulments???.

What is it that scares you?

 

[TimothyH]

No, I’m not ‘uneasy’ about it. It’s fairly obvious that people are not prepared for the Sacrament. I don’t think they’re abusing the system, I really believe they weren’t forthright when they got married in the first place.

This, I think, is very true.

With rampant porn addiction and contraception use being the norm, I think many people who get married have no business doing so.

25% of western men are addicted to porn, addicted to gratification of self. These men cannot possibly be forming a correct understanding of the self-sacrifice required in marriage, or if they are able to understand it, they are unable to carry it out in day to day life.

As secular society degenerates into the toilet, more and more people are getting married for the wrong reasons. I think the high number of anullments simply reflects that.

-Tim-

 

[GraceDK]

Anyone can read articles and find people who support their opinion. It still remains unanswered why you consider your own opinion more valid than those who have been given authority from God to make the decisions and who have the full facts on the individual cases.

Again, I do not consider my oppinion more valid… I consider the oppinion of my priest-canon-lawyer friend valid when he after extensive knowlege and experience in this field says there is a growing abuse going on.
And as far as I understand not all of those who are deciding in the tribunals have been given authority from God. Just like all who are cloistered did not receive a vocation to be there and end up leaving again after an unhappy time.
Or like the people in parish councils sometimes indeed do and say wrong things.

The tribunals have some facts in the cases, but they never have all facts… My teacher told me about cases where people try to cheat the tribunals. He said:" We have to be good detectives sometimes". He explained eg. a man came and said he wanted an annullment because his wife had serious multiple schlerosis. The canon lawyer said: “Did you know of her condition prior to marriage?” The man said, “no”.
However, digging up some old documents, the canon lawyer found out that the man had indeed known that his fiancee was sick, but married her anyway. Now when the disease had advanced and the feelings had cooled down, the horror entered and the man was even ready to lie to the tribunal.
The canon lawyer did his work well, so the anullment was not granted.

He said these things are not uncommon. Sometimes people deceive the tribunals, sometimes they even deceive themselves. Sometimes the tribunals deceive themselves.
The tribunals might be Godwilled, but not everyone in them has a firm mind to serve the truth.

 

[Darran]

A divorce is something that the government decides when two people no longer wish to be married to each other to dissolve the marriage.

A decree of nullity is something that the Church decides exists after the divorce when the Sacrament of Marriage was invalid from the start.

Ah I see. What would be an example of that?

I don’t know if it’s different here, but couples have to attent a marriage course for some months before the sacrament. Surely the “I do” seals the deal, so to speak?

 

[EvelynEVF]

Darran, premarital counseling is hit or miss in the US, from parish to parish, diocese to diocese, and then there are lots of us who were married as Protestants or nothing at all, where it is just as spotty.

I’m not sure what kind of an example you are looking for. Grounds for a decree of nullity? That would be things like serious mental illness at the level of a personality disorder, marrying with the intention to be childfree, a “shotgun” wedding where a person was forced to marry due to circumstance without free consent (I’m think of back when a couple of high school kids would get pregnant and the parents would insist they marry). Or straightforward stuff like a baptized Catholic marrying outside the Church without the proper permissions/dispensations.

 

[Darran]

Darran, premarital counseling is hit or miss in the US, from parish to parish, diocese to diocese, and then there are lots of us who were married as Protestants or nothing at all, where it is just as spotty.

I’m not sure what kind of an example you are looking for. Grounds for a decree of nullity? That would be things like serious mental illness at the level of a personality disorder, marrying with the intention to be childfree, a “shotgun” wedding where a person was forced to marry due to circumstance without free consent (I’m think of back when a couple of high school kids would get pregnant and the parents would insist they marry). Or straightforward stuff like a baptized Catholic marrying outside the Church without the proper permissions/dispensations.

Ah I see. I suppose that makes sense.

 

[dans0622]

Again, I do not consider my oppinion more valid… I consider the oppinion of my priest-canon-lawyer friend valid when he after extensive knowlege and experience in this field says there is a growing abuse going on. …

Hello,

Your priest-canon-lawyer friend is certainly not alone in his opinion. Given my job, I find it easy to agree with the general sentiment. The problem is that those who render decisions are always canon lawyers and almost always priests (not really sure if the clerical/presbyteral state is important) and they also have extensive knowledge and experience. So, it’s a stalemate as far as that goes.

“Growing abuse” is not something I agree with–the most recent statistics (within the past 5 years or so) I have seen from the Roman Rota is that they were basically split 50-50 on their decisions. That seems about right, since most cases that end up there have one affirmative and one negative decision already.

Dan

 

[mellowcalico]

Ah I see. What would be an example of that?

I don’t know if it’s different here, but couples have to attent a marriage course for some months before the sacrament. Surely the “I do” seals the deal, so to speak?

I’ve had two priests tell me I should look into seeing if my marriage was valid (look into getting an annulment).

My Ex left me a few years ago because he didn’t want to be married anymore. But prior to that, before we were married, he kept a couple of secrets from me. The first was that he is attracted to men and the second was that he was having an active, sexual relationship with a man while we were engaged and after we were married. I found out after we were married and for years tried to “make the marriage work” before, frankly, I was exhausted at trying (and he went on to have two more affairs). When I gave up trying, he left and after a year I filed for divorce (mainly to cut financial and legal ties, but also to ensure child support since he was starting to “slack” on our agreement).

I haven’t really had any interest in marrying again for the couple of years we’ve been apart. The marriage just sucked the life out of me. It was like tying to bail water out of a sinking boat without the ability to patch the hole. Since the divorce my life has been happier and stress free. I even feel closer to God and more free to worship (Ex didn’t like the Church).

Anyway, I’ve finally decided it’s time to seek an annulment. I think I am better now and I would like to try again at marriage if it’s possible. If my marriage wasn’t valid, maybe God has another plan for me… I figure I owe to as myself to at least have my marriage investigated. If it’s annulled, maybe I can start dating again and eventually re-marry. If it’s still valid, well, I can live with that too. It just means my life has a path.

 

[hurting]

Darran, premarital counseling is hit or miss in the US, from parish to parish, diocese to diocese, and then there are lots of us who were married as Protestants or nothing at all, where it is just as spotty.

I’m not sure what kind of an example you are looking for. Grounds for a decree of nullity? That would be things like serious mental illness at the level of a personality disorder, marrying with the intention to be childfree, a “shotgun” wedding where a person was forced to marry due to circumstance without free consent (I’m think of back when a couple of high school kids would get pregnant and the parents would insist they marry). Or straightforward stuff like a baptized Catholic marrying outside the Church without the proper permissions/dispensations.

Personality disorders are overdiagnosed by the helping profession looking to make itself relevant. This article makes the case pretty well, although it addresses over-diagnosis of in general. (psychologytoday.com/blog/dsm5-in-distress/201006/psychiatric-fads-and-overdiagnosis. It is also important to recognize that PD’s have a cultural context. I’m sure you could find many a helping profession practitioner willing to call Roman Catholic orthodoxy and adherence thereto evidence of a personality disorder. The APA can’t even get its own house in order - see the considerable controversy over DSM-V.

 

[GraceDK]

Hello,

Your priest-canon-lawyer friend is certainly not alone in his opinion. Given my job, I find it easy to agree with the general sentiment. The problem is that those who render decisions are always canon lawyers and almost always priests (not really sure if the clerical/presbyteral state is important) and they also have extensive knowledge and experience. So, it’s a stalemate as far as that goes.

“Growing abuse” is not something I agree with–the most recent statistics (within the past 5 years or so) I have seen from the Roman Rota is that they were basically split 50-50 on their decisions. That seems about right, since most cases that end up there have one affirmative and one negative decision already.

Dan

I have an idea…
It seems there is a lot of money and time and staff invested in the whole tribunal carrosel… and people here on CAF blame poor marriage prep for the number of failed marriages.

I guess the Church out to simply make 1-2 pages where its clearly stated what a marriage is, who can marry, what the man and woman get themselves into, resposnibilities, what they say yes to, babies and all…
they will be given this document when they come to the church to announce their wish for a ceremony, and can go home and talk about it.

On the paper should of course also be a link to some good resources on marriage, internet links plus the name of the nearest parish where there is marriage preparation, and a request that they come if at all possible.

Then they sign it and after that they can get married in the Church.
Later they cannot say: we didn’t know what a Catholic marriage was… etc etc. and only the cases where there was deliberate fraud - like the case of the last poster -, where people ignorantly married outside of the church, or didn’t know they were first cousins
will have to be dealt with.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Thank you for your opinion. I was civilly married to a full-blown borderline (BPD) for a number of years, and it is not an overstatement to describe that period of time as torture.

Maybe they are overdiagnosed by wishful thinkers; I have no idea. I do**** know that personality disorders are absolutely real, and can be devastating to a marriage.

 

[EvelynEVF]

I have an idea…
It seems there is a lot of money and time and staff invested in the whole tribunal carrosel… and people here on CAF blame poor marriage prep for the number of failed marriages.

I guess the Church out to simply make 1-2 pages where its clearly stated what a marriage is, who can marry, what the man and woman get themselves into, resposnibilities, what they say yes to, babies and all…
they will be given this document when they come to the church to announce their wish for a ceremony, and can go home and talk about it.

On the paper should of course also be a link to some good resources on marriage, internet links plus the name of the nearest parish where there is marriage preparation, and a request that they come if at all possible.

Then they sign it and after that they can get married in the Church.
Later they cannot say: we didn’t know what a Catholic marriage was… etc etc. and only the cases where there was deliberate fraud - like the case of the last poster -, where people ignorantly married outside of the church, or didn’t know they were first cousins
will have to be dealt with.

I think that’s a great idea. The problem I see is that parishes are already asked to do this via preCana, and many of them just. won’t. do. it. I’m not sure that reframing it will make it more likely to happen.

 

[DCNBILL]

I have an idea…
It seems there is a lot of money and time and staff invested in the whole tribunal carrosel… and people here on CAF blame poor marriage prep for the number of failed marriages.

I guess the Church out to simply make 1-2 pages where its clearly stated what a marriage is, who can marry, what the man and woman get themselves into, resposnibilities, what they say yes to, babies and all…
they will be given this document when they come to the church to announce their wish for a ceremony, and can go home and talk about it.

On the paper should of course also be a link to some good resources on marriage, internet links plus the name of the nearest parish where there is marriage preparation, and a request that they come if at all possible.

Then they sign it and after that they can get married in the Church.
Later they cannot say: we didn’t know what a Catholic marriage was… etc etc. and only the cases where there was deliberate fraud - like the case of the last poster -, where people ignorantly married outside of the church, or didn’t know they were first cousins
will have to be dealt with.

In our diocese and I am sure there is in most dioceses a prenuptial marriage form that explains all of the impediments to marriage and must be signed by both parties. The trouble with this is people lie.

 

[joanofarc2008]

In our diocese and I am sure there is in most dioceses a prenuptial marriage form that explains all of the impediments to marriage and must be signed by both parties. The trouble with this is people lie.

http://c.wrzuta.pl/wi18757/0f6135f200064ce6486286c8/dr_house-_everybody_lies

You would think you have been doing this for a while DCNBILL. Personally I think there are some that have something to gain from matrimony that will lie to get what they want. There are some that on a less evil note are so afraid of being alone that will still hide their faults from their potential spouses right up until after those vows are exchanged including things like personality disorders, homosexual tendencies, not having the intention to stay faithful etc. But I guess sometimes some people have go through it to believe these things do really exist. But the point is I couldn’t agree with you more.