May God bless you in your discernment, CK. Thanks for sharing this happy news with us.
This is fantastic, Belgarion! I’m glad that God is blessing you in so many ways.
Don’t dwell on it!Thank you so much!This is fantastic, Belgarion! I’m glad that God is blessing you in so many ways.
I’ll be praying for you and your lovely young lady.
:harp:
Yes, I’ve had many similar thoughts. I’ve been in several long term relationships, including an engagement. All of them have been solid Catholic men. I think, in hindsight, my parent’s divorce has led to some of my own confusion and hesitation to commit. I feel like I’ve spent most of my 20’s trying to figure out what marriage really is. My parents botched theirs so badly. The truth is, in talking to my married friends, marriage comes with doubts most of the time. Not that you aren’t happy, not that God won’t help you find that person etc., but still doubts and even fear can very much be part of the equation. I think another reality is that we live in a culture where love is very romanticized and idealized. When that other person doesn’t “complete you” like Jerry McGuire, we get confused and deflated.
Hmmm, I’d be careful to avoid oversimplifing a culture. For starters, at least with modern arranged marriages, the parents help you search but do not make the decision for you. And in regards to obedience, it may be in the past that that was the case, but I think there’s a lot more to Eastern marriages and cultures than this. I dated a man who’s family is from India and have known several others. In fact, I know of at least four situations where the couple now lives in America, not India, and their goals are not to farm or expand land or bring about “healthy sons” etc as you describe. They work in technology (in one case, the wife works and makes quite an income), etc. And the interview I saw last night was with a couple that actually seemed quite modern, and quite in love, just got to love on a different path.
I was going to write about that one, but I forgot. Basically, that’s the case with the Jews - although they might always have done things this way. Parents arrange meetings, but children make decisions. Some Indians (Indian Indians) also - in some traditional models of marriage (they have several kinds), candidates go through the parents. Everything is okay when children actually accept the spouse and the point is not about doing the father’s will. The lowest form of marriage is without consent, dishonourable and repugnable (referred to as devilish, of the rakshasa), but still considered marriage. The top forms (i.e. the most honourable), in which parents participate, have nothing to do with oppression or coercion. However, parents seek partners for their children, the children don’t get to. Candidates could even address the parents on their own, so this should provide for a child’s beloved, but generally the active player is the father and the son-in-law-to-be. Traditionally, at least. Marriage concluded entirely without parents can’t take the noble form of the highest categories and is not traditionally regarded as very honourable. In fact, those modern marriages of mutual picking are just a tiny bit dishonourable in traditional terms. To some extent, I suppose people cooperate with the parents and pay homage to tradition but ultimately take a lot of say in the picking. Note that I don’t have any particular problem with the most noble form of Hindu marriage, although naturally I’m not a fan of the part where the daughter is offered in the temple or basically sold (not as in a slave but still a very business-like mode of action). I don’t like the concept of spoil of war being a marriage, but better than than make the woman a sex slave, something which happened in the Muslim world until quite recently.
Yes, currently. I was talking about the general tradition of the father picking the spouse, especially for his daughter.
Again, that was about the basic concept, not the particular circumstances of modern expatriates in the Western world or even home in the East. As the whole family alliance thing is now lighter, those things fade.
I do not question that path, I just say it isn’t really for me. There’s nothing un-Christian in it and I suppose Christian parents should help with that if asked or expected to. In rural communities in the West, this still happens to some extent. Where there are few people your age and everyone knows everyone, you generally know whom you will marry by default even if you aren’t immediately interested.
Of course. I for one will say parental advice is extremely valuable. If one is okay with not marrying out of love but following the guidance of the wiser people as to who one will make a happy marriage with, then that person might well try. I would most definitely give serious consideration to anyone my parents or other family suggested and I would give a thought or two to their reservations about someone I picked, as well. I’ve gone to my parents for relationship advice in the past. All I say is that going through parents as a ritual figure doesn’t sit well with my modern liberty-heavy Western mindset, as appreciative of parental advice as I am. In fact, a while before in this thread I described a situation in which my father said something about having an eye on someone as a potential candidate for me. I wouldn’t have a problem with that at all. Contrary, as I said, I’d be grateful, happy, possibly excited. To a large extent, he knows better (both about me and about people in general or relationships). But obedience of any kind would not be a factor - neither in his eyes nor mine. Obedience makes me wonder how free the consent was and if the marriage is really valid.
Yes, I find so as well. When I was 19, I aced the entry exam to one of the best archaelogy departments in the world, that 10% people passed and did that without preparation. In retrospect, I’d have made a better archaeologist, historian or anthropologist than I am a lawyer now. I’m not an ignorant person, just maybe nonchalant.
Parents are living people who care. Sites are, well, sites. You could argue parentally arranged marriages are better than sites. I might agree. But all in all, what matters is whether you want to marry that person or not. I’m all for parental suggestions and advice, just not for parental supervision or delegating the choice to parents. I believe in our culture, a person should use many channels, including websites and including advice from the family. And so many others. Just not sit back and let the parents do the picking.
Just the lawyer in me screams CONSENT!!! whenever I hear of arranged marriages. So, sorry for sounding rather polemical, too, I guess. And I guess my post you quoted wasn’t really wise, after all.Hmmm, let me clarify. I am not interested in getting into a debate over the finer points of arranged marriage vs. modern dating. That’s not what this thread is about. Both have their histories and shortcomings, as well as strengths. I was simply trying to make a point that in American culture, we often are persuaded to see love a certain way, to even lose perspective by over-idealizing dating and marriage. There’s much we can learn by “stepping outside the box” and reminding ourselves that some of our angst may be related to pressures unique to our culture. For example, I have found that American culture tends to paint finding and marrying your “soul mate” as the thing that will “complete” you. For ladies, we often look for our Prince Charming, etc. This can lead to some problems in the dating process, causing some to overlook potentially great spouses or to over think the process when our feelings don’t match our romantic expectations. In my profession, I see a lot of couples suffer from this both before and after marriage. I was fascinated to see this show profile a couple who approached marriage in a more practical light and seemed to benefit from it (although their cultural traditions are quite different!).Again, that was about the basic concept, not the particular circumstances of modern expatriates in the Western world or even home in the East. As the whole family alliance thing is now lighter, those things fade.
I do not question that path, I just say it isn’t really for me. There’s nothing un-Christian in it and I suppose Christian parents should help with that if asked or expected to. In rural communities in the West, this still happens to some extent. Where there are few people your age and everyone knows everyone, you generally know whom you will marry by default even if you aren’t immediately interested.
Of course. I for one will say parental advice is extremely valuable. If one is okay with not marrying out of love but following the guidance of the wiser people as to who one will make a happy marriage with, then that person might well try. I would most definitely give serious consideration to anyone my parents or other family suggested and I would give a thought or two to their reservations about someone I picked, as well. I’ve gone to my parents for relationship advice in the past. All I say is that going through parents as a ritual figure doesn’t sit well with my modern liberty-heavy Western mindset, as appreciative of parental advice as I am. In fact, a while before in this thread I described a situation in which my father said something about having an eye on someone as a potential candidate for me. I wouldn’t have a problem with that at all. Contrary, as I said, I’d be grateful, happy, possibly excited. To a large extent, he knows better (both about me and about people in general or relationships). But obedience of any kind would not be a factor - neither in his eyes nor mine. Obedience makes me wonder how free the consent was and if the marriage is really valid.
Yes, I find so as well. When I was 19, I aced the entry exam to one of the best archaelogy departments in the world, that 10% people passed and did that without preparation. In retrospect, I’d have made a better archaeologist, historian or anthropologist than I am a lawyer now. I’m not an ignorant person, just maybe nonchalant.
Parents are living people who care. Sites are, well, sites. You could argue parentally arranged marriages are better than sites. I might agree. But all in all, what matters is whether you want to marry that person or not. I’m all for parental suggestions and advice, just not for parental supervision or delegating the choice to parents. I believe in our culture, a person should use many channels, including websites and including advice from the family. And so many others. Just not sit back and let the parents do the picking.
Naturally, if you look at 19th century and the specific needs of that period, you will quickly conclude that daughters were better off with their experienced fathers picking the men than if they were to deal with, say, ten year older men with much more experience and possibly bad motivations or bad tendencies, on their own. And it’s a good thing that in the era of big marital authority of the husband, the woman had strong relatives who would take ill to the in-law abusing their daughter. But current times are different. We are prepared to be active and to make the parental role advisory.
And I surely am going to meet that girl dad was talking about, if he will let me in on his plans. It was enough that his short description sounded like a better pick than I’d do myself.
But in all seriousness, western or eastern - healthy community and family support can go a long way in making marriages a success. Just the lawyer in me screams CONSENT!!! whenever I hear of arranged marriages. So, sorry for sounding rather polemical, too, I guess. And I guess my post you quoted wasn’t really wise, after all. I come from a family *full *of lawyers, all of whom keep trying to get me to go to law school, lol! Fascinating profession, and I am sure you make a good one. My father (a lawyer as well) also thinks he should have been a historian. Thanks for sharing all your thoughts, really… I agree completely about family (name removed by moderator)ut being valuable (but that free will of the marrying couple is key). Perhaps the woman your father has an eye on will end up being a good match. I hope for the best!!dude, calm down and take a chill pill!!
That is completely true. The soulmate thing is as much a cultural one as arranged marriages are. I’m not really an advocate of modern dating, nor the soulmate theory. I have no interest in defending them. What I believe is good is when people are not pressured to follow a particular pattern, when they get the most and the best opportunities, and when their consent is reliably free. This generally means a lot of freeform and that’s how I do it. People should meet as friends and get to know each other in natural circumstances instead of getting tangled up in theatrical patterns.
George, if you’re 16, your taste in women will change, as will your priorities, and whatever education or job you choose will also be an important factor in possibly making you a largely different guy in 3, 5, 7 years from now. Girls also change a lot during this period.
Hey, I understand what you’re going through. It seems REALLY hopeless, and nothing ever goes your way.
George - I have to echo what others are saying here. While some enjoy being 16, many of us felt like aliens during that time period in our lives! It’s not an easy age, and I too will not tell you to “stop feeling bad” because I totally understand. I have definitely “been there” and know what loneliness, sadness, awkwardness, and uncertainty about the future feel like. If it’s any encouragement at all, a person’s “dating record” has little to do with whether they will marry or whether the marriage will be happy! My family predicted I would be the first to marry. I dated a lot more than my sibs. Now, both are very happily married (have been for several years), and I am learning to trust God for His plan and timing (as well as His grace to make up for where I may have gone wrong!) Just know there is hope – and that truly, many of us can empathize.