Anyone got questions about Buddhism?

[cathgal]

Nirvana is a state of unconscieness. That could mean…you exist but you don’t know you exist. Might as well be non-existent!
The goal of Buddhism is to escape the cycle of suffering. You know…reincarnation. Every time you come back as a person or animal (animal! now that’s what I call regression), you will suffer, like we all do in life. So the cycle goes, if you believe in reincarnation. So how do Buddists achieve Nirvana? They become monks, and you know what the life of monks are like. Give up all human desires. Because to desire something, one has to work for it and ‘work’ is suffering. And if one does not get what one desires, that can also be suffering. So monks blot out all desires and if they succeed, they’d obtain Nirvana when they die. The only desire they can’t give up is ‘eat’, but they wouldn’t work for it cuz ‘work’ is suffering.

So, isn’t it great to be a Christian (better as a Catholic)! You don’t have to be a monk in order to obtain paradise, and in a state of conscieness too!

 

[Hastrman]

I agree. I asked how does he know this to be true. Still waiting for the answer

Then you didn’t look through the thread where I did answer it. It’s on the first page, about halfway down. Use your browser’s search function for “puzzleannie” and repeat until you get to my post that mentions the name.

 

[patrick457]

Nirvana is a state of unconscieness. That could mean…you exist but you don’t know you exist. Might as well be non-existent!
The goal of Buddhism is to escape the cycle of suffering. You know…reincarnation. Every time you come back as a person or animal (animal! now that’s what I call regression), you will suffer, like we all do in life. So the cycle goes, if you believe in reincarnation. So how do Buddists achieve Nirvana? They become monks, and you know what the life of monks are like. Give up all human desires. Because to desire something, one has to work for it and ‘work’ is suffering. And if one does not get what one desires, that can also be suffering. So monks blot out all desires and if they succeed, they’d obtain Nirvana when they die. The only desire they can’t give up is ‘eat’, but they wouldn’t work for it cuz ‘work’ is suffering.

So, isn’t it great to be a Christian (better as a Catholic)! You don’t have to be a monk in order to obtain paradise, and in a state of conscieness too!

But the doctrine you stated above is more common in Theravada circles than Mahayana ones. Mahayana Buddhism teaches everyone can be enlightened, but places more emphasis in helping others achieve enlightenment than achieving one’s own. (Mr. Hastrman, please correct if i’m wrong)

But I do agree with your second statement. We don’t need to be reborn multiple times/ become monks/ partake in magical rituals/ recite mantras and dharanis to achieve Salvation since Jesus is The Way, the Truth and the Life.

 

[Hastrman]

Nirvana is a state of unconscieness. That could mean…you exist but you don’t know you exist. Might as well be non-existent!
The goal of Buddhism is to escape the cycle of suffering. You know…reincarnation. Every time you come back as a person or animal (animal! now that’s what I call regression), you will suffer, like we all do in life. So the cycle goes, if you believe in reincarnation. So how do Buddists achieve Nirvana? They become monks, and you know what the life of monks are like. Give up all human desires. Because to desire something, one has to work for it and ‘work’ is suffering. And if one does not get what one desires, that can also be suffering. So monks blot out all desires and if they succeed, they’d obtain Nirvana when they die. The only desire they can’t give up is ‘eat’, but they wouldn’t work for it cuz ‘work’ is suffering.

There’s no need to belittle Buddhism, especially not since you don’t seem to understand it. I don’t agree with it, but I’d have to be blind not to respect it.

Being reincarnated as an animal is generally a punishment for sins. For very serious sins, though, one is reincarnated into a hungry ghost and banished to one of ten hells for thousands of years. And Pure Land Buddhists, and most Shingon Buddhists, believe one can achieve salvation without becoming a monk.

Work is not suffering. Zen monks invented kung fu; Shingon monks invented ninjutsu; all monks frequently make their living by begging. All monks perform work constantly, both as “dynamic meditation” and from necessity. Many also perform charity work exactly as Christian monks do.

Desire actually has nothing to do with work; to get something one desires one has to work for it, but the desire is there if you work for it or not. Desire is seen as the cause of suffering because it creates attachment to this world. That attachment prevents one from being freed.

 

[Montalban]

Then you didn’t look through the thread where I did answer it. It’s on the first page, about halfway down. Use your browser’s search function for “puzzleannie” and repeat until you get to my post that mentions the name.

So your answer to Puzzleannie was an answer to this question…?
"Montalban:

How do you know you know nearly enough? (sort of a Buddhist question for you )

You write post #40

I agree, it was stupid to say that. Would it help to know that what I originally wrote, in response to puzzleannie’s (rather rude) quesiton about why I bothered to learn about another religion, was that I was certain I knew more about the faith than her? The current version was backing off from what was, basically, just an insult.

Suddenly “I already know everything about the faith” doesn’t seem so bad, does it? When I say less-than-intelligent things, it’s usually as a result of backing off from the really nasty things that are my first impulse.

Or in other words, yeah, I’m a sinner. Now that you’ve had that shocking revelation, I vote we get back to discussing Buddhism.

This doesn’t seem to answer my question.

Did you answer this one, (I may have missed it too)…?

Montalban:

If Buddha’s in Nirvana (not the band) what’s he want with burnt offerings?

 

[patrick457]

Being reincarnated as an animal is generally a punishment for sins. For very serious sins, though, one is reincarnated into a hungry ghost and banished to one of ten hells for thousands of years. And Pure Land Buddhists, and most Shingon Buddhists, believe one can achieve salvation without becoming a monk.

Work is not suffering. Zen monks invented kung fu; Shingon monks invented ninjutsu; all monks frequently make their living by begging. All monks perform work constantly, both as “dynamic meditation” and from necessity. Many also perform charity work exactly as Christian monks do.

Where did you get these bizarre ideas?

Probably that is the way in Theravada, or so I’ve read; that to achieve enlightenment, one needs to be a monk.
Though I wonder where the ‘work is suffering’ came from.

Are you talking about the Six Realms here?
People in Hell
The Hungry Ghosts (Gaki)
Animals
Warring Demons (Asuras)
Humans
Devas

Though what are the Hungry Ghosts, exactly?

 

[patrick457]

Actually the Dalai Lama doesn’t like Thurman’s stuff, because he’s too much of a sincretist.

Thurman is, I believe, part Tibetan, but his Sanskrit’s apparently bad (I hear–I know about six words of Sanskrit). “Om mani padme hum” is closer to, “Om Jewel Lotus God,” which is one of the titles of Avalokitesvara.

And Guan Yin as a goddess cannot be traced to any associations with Mary until the Kakurekurishitans, the Crypto-Christians of Japan, made their Kannon Madonnas (Kannon is the Japanese reading of Guan Yin). Guan Yin is actually the result of conflating Avalokitesvara with a Taoist immortal/god of childbirth and mercy.

Similarly, Jizou is the result of conflating the bodhisattva Ksitigarbha with a Chinese god of the underworld. Iconography wise, anyway–he’s a lot more “purely” Buddhist than Guan Yin.

Isn’t Kannon depicted as male in Tibet and India? Why did he become ‘female’ when Buddhism reached China, Korea and Japan? (Though I’ve observed that some statues of Kannon depicting her as female had a moustache)

And, please, Mr. Hastrman, lighten up. Some of your posts looks like you are annoyed (though I might be wrong here). Just relax, and just have a bit of self-control and patience.

 

[Hastrman]

In that puzzleannie post I retracted the statement you were asking about. There’s your answer, you’re not getting another.

And Buddha doesn’t want the burnt offerings; the point is for people to honor him, not for him to receive the honor. He’s a Buddha, not a god.

Sort of like what Augustine said about funerals: they’re not for the dead, they’re for the living.

 

[Montalban]

Isn’t Kannon depicted as male in Tibet and India? Why did he become ‘female’ when Buddhism reached China, Korea and Japan? (Though I’ve observed that some statues of Kannon depicting her as female had a moustache)

And, please, Mr. Hastrman, lighten up. Some of your posts looks like you are annoyed (though I might be wrong here). Just relax, and just have a bit of self-control and patience.

The depiction (in human form) was also infleuenced (so I saw on a tv-doco) by contact with Alexander the Great

Which is why (so the documentary claimed) Buddha is depicted with wavy hair

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art

 

[Hastrman]

So your answer to Puzzleannie was an answer to this question…?

In that puzzleannie post I retracted the statement you were asking about.

Did you answer this one, (I may have missed it too)…?

No, I didn’t. Sorry. Buddha doesn’t want the burnt offerings; the point is for people to honor him (for his intrinsic dignity as a Buddha), not for him to receive the honor. He’s a Buddha, not a god.

Sort of like what Augustine said about funerals: they’re not for the dead, they’re for the living.

 

[Montalban]

In that puzzleannie post I retracted the statement you were asking about.

Ah, I’m sorry I missed it!

No, I didn’t. Sorry. Buddha doesn’t want the burnt offerings; the point is for people to honor him (for his intrinsic dignity as a Buddha), not for him to receive the honor. He’s a Buddha, not a god.
Sort of like what Augustine said about funerals: they’re not for the dead, they’re for the living.

I believe that this is true- what he said! I also accept the ideas of prayers and fasting.

However we do this (in Orthodoxy) to be one with God. You don’t believe Buddha’s a god, so who/what are you trying to be one with?

Also, did Buddha achieve enlightenment whilst he was still alive, or only after his death? (if alive, then how did it change him insofar as he still died, and I presume lived a normal life prior to that)?

 

[Hastrman]

Isn’t Kannon depicted as male in Tibet and India? Why did he become ‘female’ when Buddhism reached China, Korea and Japan? (Though I’ve observed that some statues of Kannon depicting her as female had a moustache)

Yeah, (s)he is depicted as male in Tibet and India; she’s female in East Asia because Avalokitesvara (Guan Yin/Kannon’s Sanskrit name) got combined with a Taoist goddess of mercy in Chinese Buddhism.

And you weren’t wrong, above, about the difference between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism; the duty of compassion, exemplified by bodhisattvas like Guan Yin and Buddhas like Amitabha, is the distinguishing feature of the sect. Zen’s not a normal Mahayana sect, but it still has a lot more emphasis on helping others to enlightenment than most Theravada. Shingon and the other Vajrayana sects, on the other hand, are something of a mix of the two, that’s why Shingon’s called the Way of All Buddhas.

And, please, Mr. Hastrman, lighten up. Some of your posts looks like you are annoyed (though I might be wrong here). Just relax, and just have a bit of self-control and patience.

I’m actually not that annoyed most of the time; I just have a tendency to write sort of clipped when I’m trying to be precise.

Though what are the Hungry Ghosts, exactly?

A Hungry Ghost is a sort of vampire/zombie condition a soul enters in Hindu tradition when it’s not properly cared for (buried, prayed for, etc.) Buddhism brought the idea with it, and one of the acts of compassion Buddhists perform is to make propitiatory offerings to them, sort of like praying for souls in purgatory. It’s especially a popular idea in East Asia, because Confucianism has related ideas about ancestor worship. In Korea, for instance, hungry ghosts are seen as having been cast out, like elderly beggars, because they have nobody to perform ancestor-rites for them.

 

[Hastrman]

However we do this (in Orthodoxy) to be one with God. You don’t believe Buddha’s a god, so who/what are you trying to be one with?

Well, I’m not trying to be one with anyone, I’m Catholic. Buddhists aren’t either: their goal is to separate from, not to say escape, the world. The Zen idea of oneness is simple: all things are one, in that they are all parts of nonbeing, or in other words, they’re all ultimately irrelevant.

There’s a famous (and really cool!) quote from Rinzai Gigen, founder of the Rinzai Zen sect, that explains the Zen attitude toward Buddhas.

If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha. If you meet your spiritual father, kill your spiritual father. Not held by anything, not bound, all there is is to simply live your life as it comes.
(I translated the Japanese version, because I don’t know any Chinese)

What he meant was, “We’re not here to worship anyone. We’re here to learn how to escape the veil of illusion. Respect the achievements of those who’ve done it, sure, but don’t get stuck worshipping them, like they’re gods–even gods can’t save you.”

Also, did Buddha achieve enlightenment whilst he was still alive, or only after his death? (if alive, then how did it change him insofar as he still died, and I presume lived a normal life prior to that)?

As far as I know, he was said to have achieved it while he lived; but all the Buddhist sources I know best are Zen or otherwise Chinese-influenced, meaning they just sort of assume, because of Taoism, that enlightened beings are no longer mortal.

 

[patrick457]

Also, did Buddha achieve enlightenment whilst he was still alive, or only after his death? (if alive, then how did it change him insofar as he still died, and I presume lived a normal life prior to that)?

He achieved enlightenment whilst under a Bodhi tree.
We’ll have to relate the first part of Buddha’s life here, actually.

It is said that when the Buddha was born, sages were consulted about his future. Most said he will become either a king or a holy man. But there is one who predicted that this child will become a Buddha (an enlightened being)
Of course, his father (a king) wanted him to become a king just like him so he shielded the young Gautama away from religious teachings or knowledge of suffering.
He then spent his first 29 years as a prince living in a palace (actually he had three, one for each season), with his whim and fancy followed. He married at 16, and had a son.

But when he reached 29, he decided to go into a little excursion riding his chariot. Along the way he saw a cripple, a sick man, a dead corpse, and an ascetic (the Four sights). Gautama was depressed, and then realized the truth about death and suffering, and he decided to overcome it by being an ascetic. He thus abandoned his wealth and his family and set out to become a monk.

Firstly, he went to Magadha (present-day Bihar) and joined a group of monks. He was rather quite adept at ascetism, and he even surpassed his teachers. But still, the answer did not yet come to him. He then left the group with a handful of followers and took their ascetism to an extreme, such as not eating anything except a leaf of a nut per day. Gautama became extremely emaciated at this point but still, no answer.

After a while, Gautama then remembered how in his childhood, he watched his father start the season’s plowing. He remembered the sight. It made his mind fall in a refreshingly concentrated and conscious state. Then after meditating for a while, Gautama discovered the so-called ‘Middle Way’. After eating a milk rice pudding given by a village girl to him, he then sat under the Bodhi Tree, vowing never to leave until he had reached enlightenment. His companions thought that he had abndoned Ascetism and then deserted him. After a while ,at age 35, Gautama achieved enlightenment and became the Buddha Shakyamuni.

 

[rossum]

Also, did Buddha achieve enlightenment whilst he was still alive, or only after his death? (if alive, then how did it change him insofar as he still died, and I presume lived a normal life prior to that)?

The Buddha left home at age 29 to seek enlightenment. Up to that time he had lived a life of luxury but was still discontent. He had realised that happiness cannot be found in material things. At 29 he became a wandering ascetic and studied under two teachers of what we now call Yoga. He learned all that they had to teach, but he could still not find happiness. He then struck out on his own and tried extreme asceticism. It is from this ascetic period that this image comes:
http://what-buddha-said.net/Pics/Serene.Buddha.jpg

When extreme ascceticism did not work either he started eating again and sat down under the Bodhi Tree. There he attained enlightenment aged 35. For the rest of his life until he died aged 80 he wandered North India preaching.

The luxury and extreme asceticism are important, the Buddhist Path is often called “the Middle Way” which means a middle way between material luxury and extreme asceticism. The Buddha tried both of them and they don’t work.

One of the differences between nirvana and heaven is that you don’t have to be dead to attain nirvana.

rossum

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Hastrman, I don’t wish to be argumentative, but just a couple things:

Actually the Dalai Lama doesn’t like Thurman’s stuff, because he’s too much of a sincretist.

From the Dalai Lama’s intro to Thurman’s translation:“I am delighted that my old friend , Professor Thurman, has made a new translation of this important work. I am sure he brings to bear on this text a unique combination of reliable scholarship and personal dedication to produce an accurate, expressive, and lucid translation for Western readers.”

Thurman is, I believe, part Tibetan, but his Sanskrit’s apparently bad (I hear–I know about six words of Sanskrit). “Om mani padme hum” is closer to, “Om Jewel Lotus God,” which is one of the titles of Avalokitesvara.

You have a point with mani padme being, literally “Jewel Lotus”, and the reference to a title to Avalokitesvara is undeniable. But from what I’ve read, translating HUM as God is a bit farfetched. Here is the 14th Dalai Lama’s commentary on the entire mantra:
“It is very good to recite the mantra Om mani padme hum, but while you are doing it, you should be thinking on its meaning, for the meaning of the six syllables is great and vast… The first, Om …] symbolize the practitioner’s impure body, speech, and mind; they also symbolize the pure exalted body, speech, and mind of a Buddha…]” “The path is indicated by the next four syllables. Mani, meaning jewel, symbolizes the factors of method-the altruistic intention to become enlightened, compassion, and love…]” “The two syllables, padme, meaning lotus, symbolize wisdom…]” “Purity must be achieved by an indivisible unity of method and wisdom, symbolized by the final syllable hum, which indicates indivisibility…]” “Thus the six syllables, om mani padme hum, mean that in dependence on the practice of a path which is an indivisible union of method and wisdom, you can transform your impure body, speech, and mind into the pure exalted body, speech, and mind of a Buddha…]”

And Guan Yin as a goddess cannot be traced to any associations with Mary until the Kakurekurishitans, the Crypto-Christians of Japan, made their Kannon Madonnas (Kannon is the Japanese reading of Guan Yin). Guan Yin is actually the result of conflating Avalokitesvara with a Taoist immortal/god of childbirth and mercy.

I didn’t say the association was definite. Just that it had been made. I quote from the Maria Kannon Center website (specifically mkzc.org/barthashius.htm) under the heading “The Creation of the Feminine Kuan Yin”:“When first imported into China, the Bodhisattva of Compassion was portrayed as a masculine figure called Avalokitesvara. However, the Chinese feminized the Bodhisattva and named her Kuan Yin. The process of the gender change of Kuan Yin developed throughout the 10 th and 11 th centuries. Due to limited evidence, however, scholars cannot be certain of the exact time, location or even the reason for this change. It has been argued that the conversion was the result of a transfusion of different religions present on the Silk Road. It has also been suggested that it is a conflation of an indigenous deity with the Buddhist bodhisattva.”

…

"In 635 A.D a delegation of Nestorian missionaries led by a bishop named Aluoben were officially received by the imperial court in the Tang capital of Chang-an. Emperor Taizong, who “possessed a charisma and personal magnetism attractive to the finest minds of his time,” met Aluoben in the Imperial Library. It was there that missionaries began to translate their scriptures into Chinese. Recovered relics provide evidence that the missionaries were influenced by the Chinese traditions of Buddhism and Taoism. Such is the case with the eight Christian scrolls that have come to be known as the Jesus Sutras, which were discovered in a cave at Dunhuang that was unearthed in the late nineteenth century. The sutras fuse Buddhist, Christian and Taoist teachings together. [An] … example of the blend of religious concepts is found in the presentation in the scrolls of Jesus, who rescues beings from samsara, the Buddhist cycle of rebirth.

…

“Martin Palmer, a scholar of Chinese religions, rediscovered in 1998 a pagoda that the Nestorians had once used, possibly as a library, called the Da Qin Pagoda. …Inside the pagoda are the remains of what is believed to be the nativity scene, which shows that the image of Mary was present in the northwest region of China at approximately the same time that Kuan Yin began to be initially portrayed in art as a female figure. Palmer contends that Mary did in all probability have an influence on the feminization process of Kuan Yin. There is no concrete proof but this is an interesting proposition.”
I do not doubt that you’ve an avid interest in Buddhism and are interested in expressing it. But let’s strive to be aware not only of the limits of our knowledge, but also of the propensity of what knowledge we have to puff us up.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[Hastrman]

From the Dalai Lama’s intro to Thurman’s translation:“I am delighted that my old friend , Professor Thurman, has made a new translation of this important work. I am sure he brings to bear on this text a unique combination of reliable scholarship and personal dedication to produce an accurate, expressive, and lucid translation for Western readers.”

I had heard that he didn’t like Thurman’s syncretism, but I could have heard wrong. Or he might have been being polite (kissing a Quran comes to mind). Also, he might have been objecting to some other work, by some other Thurman–it seems to be rather a common name in Tibet (it’s a Tibetan name).

“It is very good to recite the mantra Om mani padme hum, but while you are doing it, you should be thinking on its meaning, for the meaning of the six syllables is great and vast… The first, Om …] symbolize the practitioner’s impure body, speech, and mind; they also symbolize the pure exalted body, speech, and mind of a Buddha…]” “The path is indicated by the next four syllables. Mani, meaning jewel, symbolizes the factors of method-the altruistic intention to become enlightened, compassion, and love…]” “The two syllables, padme, meaning lotus, symbolize wisdom…]” “Purity must be achieved by an indivisible unity of method and wisdom, symbolized by the final syllable hum, which indicates indivisibility…]” “Thus the six syllables, om mani padme hum, mean that in dependence on the practice of a path which is an indivisible union of method and wisdom, you can transform your impure body, speech, and mind into the pure exalted body, speech, and mind of a Buddha…]”

Yeah, the interpretation I read actually came out and said the seed-syllable Hum referred to the indivisible oneness of God and the Universe–Buddhism does come from Northern India, where they’re monists. Don’t know how much was being read in, though.

“When first imported into China, the Bodhisattva of Compassion was portrayed as a masculine figure called Avalokitesvara. However, the Chinese feminized the Bodhisattva and named her Kuan Yin. The process of the gender change of Kuan Yin developed throughout the 10 th and 11 th centuries. Due to limited evidence, however, scholars cannot be certain of the exact time, location or even the reason for this change. It has been argued that the conversion was the result of a transfusion of different religions present on the Silk Road. It has also been suggested that it is a conflation of an indigenous deity with the Buddhist bodhisattva.”
…
“Martin Palmer, a scholar of Chinese religions, rediscovered in 1998 a pagoda that the Nestorians had once used, possibly as a library, called the Da Qin Pagoda. …Inside the pagoda are the remains of what is believed to be the nativity scene, which shows that the image of Mary was present in the northwest region of China at approximately the same time that Kuan Yin began to be initially portrayed in art as a female figure. Palmer contends that Mary did in all probability have an influence on the feminization process of Kuan Yin. There is no concrete proof but this is an interesting proposition.”
[/INDENT]

Yeah, I think I’d heard something about that, but I didn’t believe it because it sounded far-fetched (everyone always goes to China, the Japanese are actually Jews, etc.). Actually having details makes me readier to believe there were Christians in China that early, but I still doubt the Marian influence on Guan Yin.

 

[Jerusha]

I think news of Christianity spread much faster than the institutional Church could keep up with, and it influenced the development of many-- if not most-- religions.

 

[buzzcut]

Actually having details makes me readier to believe there were Christians in China that early, but I still doubt the Marian influence on Guan Yin.

Amazing what you can find on Google.

There is actually a Mary-Guan Yin temple:

mkzc.org/barthashius.htm

And no, it’s not in California. It’s in Texas.

 

[KarenNC]

Amazing what you can find on Google.

There is actually a Mary-Guan Yin temple:

mkzc.org/barthashius.htm

And no, it’s not in California. It’s in Texas.

Well, speaking of strange combinations, there’s a tomb of Jesus in Japan
thiaoouba.com/tomb.htm

and in India
tombofjesus.com/home.htm