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Anyone notice the irony here: Catholics criticising Muslims and Islam on this forum
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anna1978
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Yup, Chaldeans, Assyrians…all Arabs, but all Christians and part of the Catholic Church. So, don’t ‘tar them all with the same brush’!Please Grace make that Muslims-Arabs, because Arabs can be Christians also…
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GraceDK
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I know Sam… but believe it or not… when I write “Arabs”, I do it in order to give the Moslems the benefit of the doubt… I don’t believe that the most criminal elements in my society, immigrants from Moslem countries, are very keen on their religion. They are rather culture-moslems/ light moslems.Please Grace make that Muslims-Arabs, because Arabs can be Christians also…
Those who are very keen on their religion tend to be more cunning. They wait till they are in the majority before they start supressing the rest of society.
I will tell you all of an experience I had at a local Mosque. yes, I have visited a mosque three times in order to dialog and get knowlege.
There I met a young Danish man. He had become a Moslem. He had never been a Christian, but since he was tired of he secular culture and fell in love with a Pakistani woman he converted to Islam.
Now I talked to him and he seemed like a great guy. Really nice. BUT… I asked him about Sharia.
“Do you believe in Sharia?”
“Yes”.
“So you believe in the cutting off of hands, stoning people for fornication and adultery and whipping people?”
“Yes ITS FOR THE GREATER GOOD”.
Look, people… this guy was not kidding. He was brainwashed… he seemed like one of those highly educated nazis that really believed in their ideology and thought it was for the world good.
- Men who worked at concentration camps in the day and at night were home with their wife and children.
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Booklover
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Any comments, Lapell?Yeah. Americans have a lot to learn. Many of us in Europe have experienced what Moslem immigration does to small countries and how it brings conflict and many antidemocratic elements… have you heard about Hitz-but-Tahrir? Thats an organisation that is quite famous among young Moslems here and it teaches agaist integration, against mingling with us infidels and for a slow but determined subversion of democracy in our societies. Our Jews are fleeing to other countries because they can hardly show them selves with a jewish kippa in the bigger cities without getting attacked . You dont believe it? You better believe it. In the capital area we have had instances, already ten years ago, where Moslem children threatened Christian children to take off their crosses. Our social-democratic left wing governments have been slow to react and to understand that all people are not thinking the same way as us… so they have let in endless numbers of immigrants from Moslem countries… now the left wing too are beginning to see that it might not have been so smart. Some months ago we had “french conditions” where hundreds of arabic kids waged war against the police and the whole society really… they put fire to things and buildings and threw stones at busses, firemen, and policeofficers that were out to do their job. The busses could not even go through the immigrant areas… These areas have become extremely dangerous … And all the while, these people say THEY are being discriminated and THEY are the victims.
What many of us over here think about Americans, including Georg Bush, is that you really are naive when it comes to Islam. At 9/11 we saw second generation Arabics in our society CELEBRATING what Osama had done… why would they not? Here they can get away with it.
All along many people here have been **so understanding **we always have to be! … Excuse me but at a certain point it makes you wanna puke. These immigrants come here, drain our welfare system, sit around talking about “Danish whores”…
Agr… whats the use of trying to explain this to you? I’ll let history teach you. In the mean while… look at Lebanon. Its used to be a majority of Christians… now Christians are running for their life…
Grace …
Vickie
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Booklover
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Booklover
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Is this the best you can do, play the part of devil’s advocate and use a tu quoque answer? Anyone can twist religious teachings to justify doing evil but that does not give Muslims a free pass. Do you actually believe that those intolerant teachings in the Quran mean something totally different and Muslims are just misunderstanding them?
I’m not surprised though, that you replied in such a way.I would show those people what Jesus taught us.
You know perfectly well that Christians who do evil are going against the teachings of Christianity, but can you prove that Muslims are going against the teachings of Islam when they do evil?
Vickie
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dolphinlove
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Glad to see your back in form Vickie!Is this the best you can do, play the part of devil’s advocate and use a tu quoque answer? Anyone can twist religious teachings to justify doing evil but that does not give Muslims a free pass. Do you actually believe that those intolerant teachings in the Quran mean something totally different and Muslims are just misunderstanding them?
I would show those people what Jesus taught us.
You know perfectly well that Christians who do evil are going against the teachings of Christianity, but can you prove that Muslims are going against the teachings of Islam when they do evil?
Vickie
:extrahappy: :hug1:
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paarsurrey
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Hi
You are very right.
The clergy and the peoples shall have to remove their differences with Jesus and Mary; simple people with simple concepts; it is only Paul and his associates who imported myths and mysteries from the pagans. Only then can CatholicismProtestantism can survive the reason oriented onslauhgt of the AtheistsAgnostics in the West.
Thanks
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Booklover
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Since Islam allows lying to the unbelievers, how do you know they’re speaking sincerely?
The Qur’an:
Sura (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie.
Sura (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to “guard themselves.”
Sura (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must *“hide his faith” *among those who are not believers.
Sura (2:225) - “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts”
Sura (66:2) - “Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths” Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.
From the Hadith:
Bukhari (52:269) - *“The Prophet said, ‘War is deceit.’” *The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad’s men after he “guaranteed” them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).
Bukhari (49:857) - *“He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.” *Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.
- Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an “enemy.”
Bukhari (52:271) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka’b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad’s insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka’b’s trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.
From Islamic Law:
Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746) - “[it is] obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory… Whether the purpose is war, settling a disagreement, or gaining the sympathy of a victim legally entitled to retaliate… it is not unlawful to lie when any of these aims can only be attained through lying. But is is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression…”
Whatever truth there is in Islam comes from Judaism and Christianity. Islam has not brought anything to surpass any of those teachings, on the contrary it has tried to defeat all the good that Jesus brought to the world and instead has replaced them with base teachings that are an abomination to human rights.
Ask any ex-Muslim whether hatred is preached in the mosques and they’ll tell you that it is, and that has even been confirmed by our new posters from Islamic countries!
I know that I’m wasting my time responding to you since you’ll probably continue defending Islam, but I don’t waste charity on evil. Evil needs to be exposed for what it is and rejected. The reason you don’t recognize it is because it comes disguised as piety and modesty and under the guise of a religion. As R-not has stated, Islam needs to be classified as a political ideology, maybe then the useful idiots in the west would finally see it for what it is, a dangerous ideology based on the barbaric and absurd beliefs of the ignorant bedouin Arabs of the 7th century.
Vickie
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Booklover
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rinnie
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The post by Planten sums it up. They deny the Trinity, they deny that Jesus is Christ, that Jesus is God. Council of Nicaea of 787 QUOTE:WE CONDEM THOSE WHO DARE TO SPURN ECCELSIASTICAL TRADITION OR TO REJECT THE FIGURE OF THE CROSS OR WHO WICKEDLY PLOT TO UNDERMINE ANY OF THE LEGITIMATE TRADITIONS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH UNQUOTE QUOTE: LATERAN COUNCIL OF 649 IF ANYONE NOT PROPERLY AND TRULY CONFESS THE FATHER AND THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT A UNITY IN TRINITY WITHOUT BEGINNING INCOMPREHENSIBLE UNCHANGEABLE CREATOR AND PROTECTOR OF ALL THINGS LET HIM BE CONDEMNED. UNQUOTE. Sorry guys you either believe in the word of Jesus Christ or you dont. The NT says you do. you reject Jesus CHrist and the Trinity you reject God. Sorry but that is what i am taught,and if the RCC is teaching me is wrong and is lying to me then so is the NT. Because the teachings of the NT and the teachings of the RC are all the same. One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. I believe it, I will try my best to live it and I will Proclaim it on my death bed.
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GraceDK
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Dear Booklover/Vickie
Tell me… what is your short answer the claim that we, as Christians, worship the same god as the Moslems?
Quite a few Catholics here, including my self, seemt to be at odds with catholic church teaching on this at present.
Tell me… what is your short answer the claim that we, as Christians, worship the same god as the Moslems?
Quite a few Catholics here, including my self, seemt to be at odds with catholic church teaching on this at present.
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rinnie
Guest
If I could butt in here I hate to say this, but I must tell the truth, My Dad told me one time Muslims do believe in the God of Abraham, Now if this is true I hate to admit it, the God of Abraham is our God Too.
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Booklover
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The Catechism only states that Muslims ***profess ***to worship the God of Abraham, it doesn’t actually say they do. Muslims worship the “god” who speaks in the Quran. Is he the same God who has revealed himself to us?? Can we actually believe that the God we know authored a book as hate filled as the Quran?
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GraceDK
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Great answer booklover… “They profess…”
I mean… that’s what I go by too. There is only one God existing …thats an ontological fact… but in order to avoid all confusion we should allow ourselves to jugde the spirit(s) behind a religion by looking at the revelation given by that spirit.
in Islam its clear that that spirit is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Grace …
“They profess…”I mean… that’s what I go by too. There is only one God existing …thats an ontological fact… but in order to avoid all confusion we should allow ourselves to jugde the spirit(s) behind a religion by looking at the revelation given by that spirit.
in Islam its clear that that spirit is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Grace …
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Booklover
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Exactly!Great answer booklover…
I mean… that’s what I go by too. There is only one God existing …thats an ontological fact… but in order to avoid all confusion we should allow ourselves to jugde the spirit(s) behind a religion by looking at the revelation given by that spirit.
in Islam its clear that that spirit is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Grace …
Vickie
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Lapell
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Thank you, planten. We can have differences and still have respect for and show fairness toward one another. Demonizing a whole vast group doesn’t accomplish that in any way…
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Lapell
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Well, we do professto worship the One true God, don’t we?
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planten
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**No Thanks Ellen ! Booklover please see below all the verses that allen has posted out of context… I am presenting with context.Thanks, Ellen!
Vickie
[2:224] And make not Allah a target for your oaths that you may thereby abstain from doing good and acting righteously and making peace between men. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
[2:225] Allah will not call you to account for such of your oaths as are vain, but He will call you to account for what your hearts have earned. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Forbearing.**
It means like in England people keep on saying “Oh, Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ…”. Such things (loose talk) will not be taken seriously. But any intentional false oath will be taken into account.]
[2:226] For those who vow abstinence from their wives, the maximum period of waiting is four months; then if they go back to their normal relationship, surely, Allah is Most forgiving, Merciful.
[3:27] Thou makest the night pass into the day and makest the day pass into the night. And Thou bringest forth the living from the dead and bringest forth the dead from the living. And Thou givest to whomsoever Thou pleasest without measure.’
[3:28] Let not the believers take Kafirs ( i.e. violent and enemy type disbelievers) for friends in preference to believers - and whoever does that has no connection with Allah - except that you guard yourselves fully against them. And Allah cautions you against His punishment; and to Allah is the returning.
[3:29] Say, ‘Whether you hide what is in your breasts or reveal it, Allah knows it; and He knows whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And Allah has power to do all things (that he wills).’
[16:105] It is only those who believe not in the Signs of Allah, who forge falsehood, and they it is who are the liars.
[16:106] Whoso is kafir (i.e. active and violent) disbeliever in Allah after he has believed - save him who is forced to make a declaration of disbelief while his heart finds peace in faith - but such as open their breast to active and violent disbelief (Kufr) , on them is Allah’s wrath; and for them is decreed a severe punishment.
[16:107] That is because they have preferred the present life to the Hereafter, and because Allah guides not the enemy type disbelieving people (i.e. Kafirs).
I feel that it is enough to prove that there is no room for any falsehood or telling lies in the Quran. Any one can see it. More later…
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Booklover
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