Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn't know God, just ask Ananias!

[thistle]

Giver:

Satan is dead right? Isn’t being in Hell death? If someone who knows God sins, he or she will go to Hell, if it is a sin leading to death.

You claimed that anyone who knows God cannot sin. Eireann was pointing out to you that Satan and the other fallen angels knew God intimately but they sinned. How do you reconcile that?

 

[Giver]

deb1:

Could I ask for some clarification. Is the OP stating that Christians never sin? I am confused as I have never come across such a teaching. Does the OP have a different definition of sin then Catholics do?

**
Sin is doing something that is against God’s will. Some are serious, such as: (1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.” Did you notice: usurers, and Scripture doesn’t say anything about excessive interest.

The not so serious sins are, for example: reacting angrily to someone without thinking. In the end only God knows for sure if a persons sins.

A person who knows God has the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lets that person know if an act is a sin or not.

Also God gives the gift of discernment to some, which lets them know when some one else sins, or is a sinner.
Giver**

 

[Giver]

Pax:

Robert,

I will again point out something to you that I stated on another thread. The first letter of John does not mean what you think it does concerning “not sinning.”

The apostle says in 1 John 2:1, “MY LITTLE children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;”

The verse you quoted about “not sinning” is not an absolute. This is not my own idea and it is not simply a Catholic idea either. I refer you to the following from Morris Book Synopsis , a Protestant Commentary:

**"John also emphasized that we CAN be certain of our salvation. As long as one continually “walks in the light (truth) as he (Jesus) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth (i.e. continually) us from all sin” (1Jn 1:7). We must also continually admit our sinful condition (1Jn 1:9).

Can one who is “born of God” commit sin? Answer: certainly! However, it must NOT be habitual (1Jn 3:6, with the Greek present tense). If it is, then that sinner is in league with the Devil (1Jn 3:8)! The true Christian does not PRACTICE that kind of life (1Jn 3:9), though, at times, he or she may occasionally slip and fall." **

Please be advised that your understanding is unique to you and is not part of Christian teaching. You are in error.

You are wrong! Read my post.

 

[Giver]

The Catholic:

I guess I’m in trouble, so be it! There’s nothing I can do about it. I can’t snap my fingers then suddenly become 100% Faithful and full of Faith. So I will just continue my life, striving to be gracful. There’s no point in worrying about it if what giver says is true. So be it.

NO! We don’t just go live our life. Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us, and we are temples of God, so we have God to guide us. If we give our lives to Jesus then we don’t just live our lives, we live our lives as He tells us to live it.
Giver

 

[thistle]

Giver:

NO! We don’t just go live our life. Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit to teach us and guide us, and we are temples of God, so we have God to guide us. If we give our lives to Jesus then we don’t just live our lives, we live our lives as He tells us to live it.
Giver

Will you respond to my post #21 please?

 

[Marilena]

Giver:

Satan is dead right? Isn’t being in Hell death? If someone who knows God sins, he or she will go to Hell, if it is a sin leading to death.

First off, Satan is NOT “dead”. He is very much alive, and he is trying to take as many people away from God as he can. The Bible states this: Woe to the earth, for the devil has been cast down to you, having great anger knowing he has a short period of time" That indicates he is VERY much ALIVE. Do you know what the unforgivable sin is? The sin that leads to permanent death? That is the sin against the Holy Ghost. Jesus stated that that is the unforgivable sin. Also remember, Jesus came to call sinners, not the righteous. We all have a chance to come to know Christ. Take a look at this scripture, 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all iniquity. Take a look in the same chapter at verse 7: But if we walk in the light, as he also is in the light, we have fellowship one with another: and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. I took your meaning to say, that if a sinner who knows God, sins will go to hell, correct? Ever heard of repentance of sins? Are you simply stating that all people who know God and
continue to sin will burn in everlasting hellfire? or, am I mistaken?
Or do you mean this, if it is a sin that is unforgiveable, we will burn in hell correct? Remember one thing, Jesus is the final Judge. We
cannot and do not have a right to decide for ourselves who will burn in hellfire or not. That is up to Christ. Remember also that we are all imperfect. Also remember that we are saved through the blood of the Lamb. To think that Satan is dead is erroneous thinking. He most certainly is not dead. do not be deceived! Research the Bible, where does it state that Satan is dead?
This is the unforgivable sin, from which no one is exempt: blaspheming against the Holy Ghost. Remember, we all have a chance to come to know Christ Jesus, all of us! Also remember,
Jesus Christ the Righteous will judge each and everyone of us.
to assume who goes to hell is not for us to decide. God is the final judge. Not man.

 

[Eireann]

Giver:

Satan is dead right? Isn’t being in Hell death? If someone who knows God sins, he or she will go to Hell, if it is a sin leading to death.

Dead ? ummm, spirits roamed this earth in the time of Jesus, remember the demons pleading with Jesus to let them go into the swine, and they did and were drowned.
And they still roam the earth, although probably not bodily but spiritually, but they can occupy those that get involved in the occult, anyway they definately aren’t spiritually dead.

And although I decided not to say it in the first post but will now, “you have put your own twist on the Bible section you have quoted.”

And yes hell is the second death, but how do you explain sin in the world ? if satan had no influence in the world then there would be no sin, obviously he has influence as there is still sin.

And this explains it better than I.

Paul to the Ephesians 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.(Douay Rheims Version)

RSV 6:12 **For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. **

 

[Marilena]

Eireann:

Dead ? ummm, spirits roamed this earth in the time of Jesus, remember the demons pleading with Jesus to let them go into the swine, and they did and were drowned.
And they still roam the earth, although probably not bodily but spiritually, but they can occupy those that get involved in the occult, anyway they definately aren’t spiritually dead.

And although I decided not to say it in the first post but will now, “you have put your own twist on the Bible section you have quoted.”

And yes hell is the second death, but how do you explain sin in the world ? if satan had no influence in the world then there would be no sin, obviously he has influence as there is still sin.

And this explains it better than I.

Paul to the Ephesians 6:12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.(Douay Rheims Version)

RSV 6:12 **For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. **

 

[carol_marie]

Giver,
What about Peter? He knew God - yet he denied him 3 times. Isn’t that sinning?

 

[thistle]

To Giver.

Are you going to answer post #21 or not???

 

[ElizabethAnne]

(Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira: Peter said they were lying to the Holy Spirit so I would say they were filled with the Holy Spirit, and knew God. This Scripture illustrates what happens when a person who knows God willfully and deliberately commit a sin. Of course it isn’t always a physical death, but it is death. God showed us way back I (Exodus 32:28)”The sons of Levi carried out the command of Moses, and of the people about three thousand men perished that day.”

If anyone knows God there is no way he or she would deliberately commit a sin.
Giver

First you give an example of “a person who knows God” but “willfully and deliberately commits a sin.” The result is death.

Then you say that no one who knows God would deliberately commit a sin.

You are contradicting yourself.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

"habitual (1Jn 3:6, with the Greek present tense). "

Giver, Pax hit the nail on the head. Each of the texts you are quoting has to do with habitual sinning.

I John 1:5-2:2
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. ** If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.** If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

Giver, what you need ot look up is “sin unto physical death”

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 John 5:15-17
15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him. 16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

The spiritual condition of the person who comes under the “sin unto death” is characterized by continual and maximum carnality; and this punishment represents God’s final step of chastisement to those who are in maximum alienation from God. Only God can discern the true nature of a person’s mind, attitude, or volition; and only God knows whether a person is actually implacable and deserving of physical death.

The “sin unto death” is described as a principle in 1 John 5:16; Psalm 118:17,18; and Ezek. 18:21-32.

It is important for the Christian to understand the circumstances under which sins are not “unto death”.

First, sin which is confessed is not “unto death”. 1 John 1:9; 1 Cor. 11:31; Ps. 32:5; Ps. 38.

Second, sin which is discontinued is not “unto death”. Heb. 12:1; Eze. 18:21-32.

Finally, the person who responds positively to divine discipline is not involved in the “sin unto death”. Heb. 12:6, cf. 12:11-15.

There are definite characteristics by which to recognize the conditions which lead to God’s applying the “sin unto death”. Persistent, unconfessed sin, sin which continues unchecked with no repentance, may bring a person under this category. Also, the person who persistently ignores Grace, warnings, and discipline may come under the “sin unto death”. Lev. 26. Then, sin which has a maximum adverse effect on other people (causing stumbling) may lead a person into severe discipline.

Some case histories of the “sin unto death”:

• The case of “lying to the Holy Spirit” (Ananias and Sapphira). Acts 5:1-10.

• The case of persistent carnality while sitting at the Lord’s Table, 1 Cor. 11:30,31.

• The case of disobedience to the Word of God.1 Chron.10:13,14; 1 Sam. 13:9-14. King Saul did not kill Agag although directly ordered to do so by God; he insisted on personally offering sacrifices in the place of divinely appointed priests; and he consulted a witch, itself a capital offense.

• The case of self-righteousness and dependence on man which was perpetuated (case of Hezekiah). Isa. 38.

• The case of apostasy on the part of a believer. Num. 31:8; 1 Tim. 1:19,20.

realtime.net/~wdoud/topics/sindeath.html

The man who grabbed the ark is also an example.

 

[Giver]

thistle:

You claimed that anyone who knows God cannot sin. Eireann was pointing out to you that Satan and the other fallen angels knew God intimately but they sinned. How do you reconcile that?

I did answer your post 21, but I must have given it to someone else.

Satan is dead right? Isn’t being in Hell death? If someone who knows God sins, he or she will go to Hell, if it is a sin leading to death.

I’ll expand on that, if a person knows God he or she would do anything to avoid sin. Also Jesus gives those who know Him the Holy Spirit, which give the person grace not to sin.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”. Paul tells us that if, the Holy Spirit guides us, we are in no danger of sinning.

So my contention is that if someone knows that something they are about to do is a sin and deliberately do it anyway, they have never known God.
Giver

 

[jimmy]

Moses knew God better than any of the prophets yet he sinned deliberately against God. That is why he was not allowed to enter the promised land. Your thesis falls apart when you examine it.

 

[Giver]

jimmy:

Moses knew God better than any of the prophets yet he sinned deliberately against God. That is why he was not allowed to enter the promised land. Your thesis falls apart when you examine it.

Did Moses really commit a sin leading to death?

Also Jesus didn’t send His Holy Spirit to dwell in man until after His death.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

 

[jimmy]

Giver:

Did Moses really commit a sin leading to death?

Also Jesus didn’t send His Holy Spirit to dwell in man until after His death.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

It doesn’t matter when He sent His Spirit. The point is that Moses deliberately sinned against God causing Himself to not be allowed to enter the promised land.

I am not sure why it matters whether Moses’ sin lead to his death or not. The fact is that He sinned even though he directly spoke to God, and guess which person of the Trinity it is that spoke through the prophets. That is right, the Holy Spirit, so yes Moses had the Holy Spirit and he sinned gravely enough that he was not allowed to enter the promised land.

The Spirit does not take away your free will to sin and oppose God.

 

[Eireann]

"habitual (1Jn 3:6, with the Greek present tense). "

Giver, Pax hit the nail on the head. Each of the texts you are quoting has to do with habitual sinning.

I John 1:5-2:2
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. ** If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.** If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

Giver, what you need ot look up is “sin unto physical death”

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 John 5:15-17
15And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him. 16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

You should know, when Peter denied Jesus he only knew Jesus as a special man. He was given full knowledge that Jesus was God after he received the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit can give us the grace and strength to with stand Satan.
Giver

This is a perfect example of not knowing what you’re talking about.

In Matthew 16:16 it says: " Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

It was only later after Jesus was arrested that Peter denied him.

 

[Pax]

I read all of your posts and then responded with four of my own.

Your response to all of this was:

Giver:

You are wrong! Read my post.

If I am wrong then you need to show me point by point why that is so. Just saying that I am wrong and referring me back to your posts which I already disagree with is no answer at all.

Frankly, I don’t believe that you can refute what has been given to you. Moreover, you have yet to adequately explain the contradictions within your posts.