Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn't know God, just ask Ananias!

[cheeto1]

Giver and Pax have both sufficiently proved their side
of this issue. Scripture clearly supports both sides.

Now each says the other’s world will fall apart if they
find out they are wrong.

I think your world only falls apart if you choose Giver’s
side and then sin.

I would like to ask Giver if he is now without sin, not as
an insult, but because I truly want to know.

I myself would like to be without sin very much, but
that hasn’t happened yet. I could maybe choose Giver’s
side the moment I came out of confession, but if sin
were to come along, I would have to go back on Pax’s
side.

In fact, I havent’ been to confession in a couple weeks,
so I’m actually on Pax’s side right now. God keeps coming back for me! Thank you God!

You really aren’t on separate sides though. We all know
we must do what God wants. And we know he doesn’t
want us to call each other names like Pharisee and bigot.

Now you two agree to disagree and keep working for
God’s kingdom. All praise be to God.

 

[Giver]

Pax:

Oh please!!!..you have gone back and forth with everyone on this thread using specific quotes from 1st John but ignoring the others. You have made no effort whatsover to reconcile the scriptures we have given you with the ones you quoted, other than to argue that John “must have been talking to baby Christians in one verse as opposed to others.” This is no argument in your favor at all. You will convince someone when you establish the truth by way of sound scriptural exegesis and the constant teaching of the Christian Church.

Novel ideas that are at variance with the gospel and the traditions laid down by the apostles are nothing more than heresy and false teachings. There is no reason at all for us to accept your views over the clear teaching of the gospel and the teachings of the apostles.

You do not “know” that what you claim is true. You have merely expressed a novel opinion and a novel interpretation of scripture and have placed it above everything else. The problem is not with the people that reject what you say. The problem is within you. You think you have the truth but you do not.

You claim that “my world would fall apart if I found out that the church was wrong.” Let’s turn that around. I think that your world would fall apart if you found out that you are wrong. In fact you operate in your “own” world of teaching and you refuse to listen to anyone. I even suggested some reading material for you in a PM and you told me that you refuse to read anything. You can’t possibly learn the truth without an open mind and heart. At least the rest of us are willing to listen to the church which scripture tells us is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

Do you believe that the church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth?”

I just love your line about most Catholics being like the Pharisees. Out of all the Catholics in the world you probably have spoken with less than .0005%, and yet you make a ridiculous generalization. This just illustrates your closed minded bigotry toward the Church which is the body of Christ. Please drop your bigoted assumptions and open your heart and mind to the truth.

You will not convince us of anything erroneous. We will, however, accept the truth if and when you present it. As long as you submit ideas contrary to scripture and the constant teachings of Christianity you will meet stiff resistance for not even the gates of hell will prevail against “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

Show me what quotes I have ignored, that would prove I’m wrong.

 

[Pax]

cheeto1,

You are right about name calling…I will do my best to bridle my tongue.

To Robert,

I apologize for characterizing your remarks as bigoted.

 

[Pax]

Robert,

Let’s suppose that we will simply go back and forth in arguing what John really means. Perhaps Jesus can help us out through his words in the gospels.

We know that Jesus taught us how to pray in response to the request of his disciples in Matt 6:8-13. It is from this passage that we get the “Lord’s Prayer.” In the prayer it says, “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us;”
Then in verse 14 Jesus says, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you;”

In the Lord’s Prayer we are taught about forgiveness and that we are to pray that God forgives us in the same way that we forgive others. This is very important because Jesus tells us how we are supposed to forgive others. Peter asks in Matt 18:21-22, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” and Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.

You see, our forgiveness is to be the same as God’s forgiveness and in praying the “Lord’s Prayer” we essentially ask God to forgive us in the same way that Jesus has told us to forgive our brothers and sisters. If we do not forgive as Jesus has told us to forgive, then we ourselves will be forgiven or punished accordingly.

In Matthew 18:12-14 Jesus says this:

“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.”

Jesus is telling us in this passage that some will go “astray.” He is also telling us that the Good Shepherd will seek out those that go astray and that God rejoices over the one that has gone astray even more than those that never did. Obviously, if we sin he will forgive us if we repent.

Not only that, he will forgive us “seventy times seven.” Please note the language of “seventy times seven.” This is covenant language. Seven means among other things abundance, completeness, and perfection. God forgives everything as long as we repent.

I will give you one more passage that addresses the issue of God’s forgiveness to Christian sinners head on. I hope you will take it for what it says.

James 4:1-10

WHAT CAUSES wars, and what causes fightings among you? Is it not your passions that are at war in your members? You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war. You do not have, because you do not ask. You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. Unfaithful creatures! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is in vain that the scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit which he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace; therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to dejection. Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will exalt you."

Can there really be any doubt that our most merciful and loving Father will forgive us if we repent of even a mortal sin?

 

[Pax]

Giver:

Show me what quotes I have ignored, that would prove I’m wrong.

Are you sure you want me to do this? I can do it, but I’d rather not. It’s too much like a personal attack against you, and I’ve already done too much of that. Cheeto has pointed out my fault in this discourse and I don’t wish to add to it.

 

[Giver]

Pax,

(Matthew 6:12) “And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us.” (Jerusalem Bible) (Matthew 6:12) “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” (King James)

(Matthew 6:14) “Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly father will forgive you yours;” (Jerusalem Bible)

Debts and failings are not necessarily sins, and surely Jesus wasn’t talking about sins leading to death. Even trespasses don’t necessarily mean sins.

(Matthew 18:21-22) Yes Jesus told us to forgive others. But you see we are not God and we didn’t die for man to relieve him of sin.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(Matthews 18:12-14) Is a Parable, and we can read anything we want into them. Yes came and saved the straying sheep, but how many times will He go out after the one stray?

(Matthew 13:10-11) “Then the disciples went up to him and asked, ‘why do you talk in parables? ‘Because he replied ‘the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are revealed to you, but they are not revealed to them.

I don’t even want to guess why you quoted (James 4:1-10), but I’m sure it doesn’t have in proving that Christians aren’t dead to sin.

Now I answered your proofs. You now should answer my Scriptural proofs that Christians are dead to sin.

explains all that once he didn’t have to keep on explaining. So when he says: (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” (I wont have enough room to finish this, but you can find it in your Bible.)

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

There are more, but this should keep yu busy for awhile.
Giver

 

[Pax]

Please humor me and carefully analyze and respond to James 4:1-10. Your dodge simply doesn’t cut it. As I said, you ignore verses that are against your view.

 

[cheeto1]

Luke 11:4 – Forgive us our sins for we too forgive all who do us
wrong.

Before you can continue, Giver must tell which sins lead to death,
since these are the only sins he is talking about.

Your last paragraph seems to be in agreement with Pax.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Joe joins AA, and for a while he has had some success. But, he runs into some old drinking buddies, Tom, Dick and Harry and goes bar hopping with them. Joe bad mouths the AA program and the people involved with AA. Joe continues to hang out with his drinking buddies. How hard would it be for Joe to humble himself, seperate from Tom, Dick and Harry to return to AA?

Hebrews 5:11-6:11

Warning Against Falling Away to Immature Hebrew Christians

11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Hebrews 6

** 1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity,** not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because ]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.

What we have in Hebrews 5:11-6:11 are IMMATURE Jewish Christians, whom the author of Hebrews is encouraging to move onto maturity. Just like my story with Joe, Dick, Harry and Tom, Hebrews 6:4-6 is a hypothetical. The reason it would be impossible for these immature Christians to return to Christianity is because of Jewish culture and the fact that their return to Judaism entails ridiculing Jesus Christ.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

** 10:24 And let us take thought of how to spur one another on to love and good works**,27 10:25 not abandoning our own meetings, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and even more so because you see the day28 drawing near.29
**
10:26 For if we deliberately keep on sinning** after receiving the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins is left for us,30 10:27 but only a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a fury31 of fire that will consume God’s enemies.32 10:28 Someone who rejected the law of Moses was put to death33 without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.34 10:29 How much greater punishment do you think that person deserves who has contempt for35 the Son of God, and profanes36 the blood of the covenant that made him holy,37 and insults the Spirit of grace? 10:30 For we know the one who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,”38 and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”39 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

10:32 But remember the former days when you endured a harsh conflict of suffering after you were enlightened. 10:33 At times you were publicly exposed to abuse and afflictions, and at other times you came to share with others who were treated in that way. 10:34 For in fact you shared the sufferings of those in prison,40 and you accepted the confiscation of your belongings with joy, because you knew that you certainly41 had a better and lasting possession. 10:35 So do not throw away your confidence, because it42 has great reward. 10:36 For you need endurance in order to do God’s will and so receive what is promised.43 10:37 For just a little longer44 and he who is coming will arrive and not delay.45 10:38 **But my righteous one will live by faith, and if he shrinks back, I46 take no pleasure in him.47 10:39 But we are not among those who shrink back and thus perish, but are among those who have faith and preserve their souls.48
**

This text is not saying if we sin once we are lost, it is speaking about continuious lifestyle type sinning.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

James 4
Submit Yourselves to God
1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”

7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Romans 6**
19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves**. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

James 3:2
We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Giver:

Yes, I have heard your excuses before and they are very lame. I don’t have time right now to address each one, but given some time latter on I will. I have to go to work.

What I will do, not necessarily for you- but to let all the others who happen to read all this- is post some of the Scriptures, which disputes your contentions that a person who knows God, can sin, tells us that you are wrong.

By the way yes there are sins that don’t lead to death, they are human faults that are not serious offences and are not deliberate or thought out. John says that all sins don’t lead to death. Everyone needs to understand that when a person is lead by the Holy Spirit they will not sin, and if they do they are dead.

Galatians 5:16
“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence…”.

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

(Romans 8: 5) “The unspiritual are interested only in what is unspiritual, but the spiritual are interested in spiritual things. It is death to limit oneself to what is unspiritual, life and peace can only come with concern for the spiritual.”

(Romans 8: 9 - 13) “Your interest, however are not in the unspiritual, but in the spiritual, since the Spirit of God has made His home in you. In fact, unless you possessed the Spirit of Christ you would not belong to Him. Though your body may be dead it is because of sin, but if Christ is in you then your spirit is life itself because you have been justified; and if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then He who raised Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit living in you.”

So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

(1 John 5: 16) “If anybody sees his brother commit a sin that is not a deadly sin, he has only to pray, and God will give life to the simmer - not those who commit a deadly sin; for there is a sin that is death, and I will not say that you must pray about that. Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin is deadly.

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

The problem with the assertion in the heading, is that it makes membership of Christ impossible; because no one can guarantee that he will not sin - to expect that, is to deny that we are reliant on the grace of God.​

I think you are confusing perfectionism with freedom from grave sin. ##

 

[Pax]

## The problem with the assertion in the heading, is that it makes membership of Christ impossible; because no one can guarantee that he will not sin - to expect that, is to deny that we are reliant on the grace of God.

I think you are confusing perfectionism with freedom from grave sin. ##

Well said.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

Pax,

(Matthew 6:12) “And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us.” (Jerusalem Bible) (Matthew 6:12) “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” (King James)

(Matthew 6:14) “Yes, if you forgive others their failings, your heavenly father will forgive you yours;” (Jerusalem Bible)

Debts and failings are not necessarily sins, and surely Jesus wasn’t talking about sins leading to death. Even trespasses don’t necessarily mean sins.Giver

This is merely an interpretation on your part and an errant one at that. When scripture speaks of debts and trespasses in the Lord’s prayer and surrounding passages, it is, indeed, speaking of sin. You are the only person I have heard that contends otherwise. So how do we know that it refers to sin? It’s the context of the prayer. We are taught to depend on God, we are taught to forgive in order to be forgiven, and we ask God to keep us from temptation and deliver us from evil. This is all about sin and to suggest otherwise is simply wrong.

Giver:

(Matthew 18:21-22) Yes Jesus told us to forgive others. But you see we are not God and we didn’t die for man to relieve him of sin.
Giver

This is true but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Giver:

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There will be left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the raging fire that is to burn rebels. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will repay. And again: The Lord will judge his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
Giver

Daniel Marsh addressed this so I won’t bother.

Giver:

(Matthews 18:12-14) Is a Parable, and we can read anything we want into them. Yes came and saved the straying sheep, but how many times will He go out after the one stray?

(Matthew 13:10-11) “Then the disciples went up to him and asked, ‘why do you talk in parables? ‘Because he replied ‘the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven are revealed to you, but they are not revealed to them.
Giver

This is ridiculous. Jesus taught in parables and he explained the difficult ones. We don’t simply read anything we want into them. Perhaps you have been doing so, which might explain your difficulties.
Giver

Giver:

I don’t even want to guess why you quoted (James 4:1-10), but I’m sure it doesn’t have in proving that Christians aren’t dead to sin.
Giver

I quite understand your difficulty with James 4:1-10. The passage clearly denies your view.

Giver:

Now I answered your proofs. You now should answer my Scriptural proofs that Christians are dead to sin.
Giver

You have not answered my arguments at all and you have clearly dodged James 4:1-10. Until you can logically refute the passages given to you and until you can address James 4:1-10, I am not going to bother covering the old ground again. I will, however, address the new stuff.

Giver:

(2 Peter 2:20-22)”and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know the Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” (I wont have enough room to finish this, but you can find it in your Bible.)
Giver

Please be advised that you are misrepresenting what is said in this passage from 2nd Peter. The opening line of your quote should tell you what it means. The second half of the verse says, “…who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” Clearly this does not refer to a one time or occassional falling into serious sin. Entanglement and mastered means that a person is immersed as in a life style, it is continuous, and they are mastered by Satan and sin and the person is at enmity with God.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
Giver

I have already answered this…it refers to “apostasy” which is the complete rejection of the faith. This in no way represents a one time or occassional fall into serious sin. This was pointed out to you before and you should already know this.

Giver:

(Romans 6: 10 - 11) “When He died, He died, once for all, to sin, so His life now is life with God; and in that way, you too must consider yourselves to be dead to sin but alive for God in Jesus Christ.”

(Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”

We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.” So then, brothers, there is no necessity for us to obey our unspiritual selves or to live unspiritual lives. If you do live in that way, you are doomed to die; but if by the Spirit you put an end to the misdeeds of the body you will live.”

There are more, but this should keep yu busy for awhile.
Giver

These verses are perfectly congruent with what we have been telling you. A good way to uderstand what Paul is saying about all of this in Romans is to look at Romans 6:6 which says: " We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin." This is reiterated more clearly in verse 16 which reads as follows:

"Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Please notice the terminology used by Paul. He uses the word “slave.” This is congruent with Peter’s use of the words “entangled” and “mastered,” and with John’s use of the present tense in 1 John 3:6. As pointed out to you earlier, John uses the Greek present tense in referring to sin. It means “habitual sinning,” and all of the texts you were using from 1 John basically refer to habitual sinning.

I hope this helps.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Giver if you do not have a copy you should get a copy of Wuest’s New Testament, it is great at bringing out verbs in the English from the Greek.

 

[Giver]

Daniel Marsh:

Giver if you do not have a copy you should get a copy of Wuest’s New Testament, it is great at bringing out verbs in the English from the Greek.

I am not very concerned about which Bible I read. The Holy Spirit, Jesus, lets me know the truth, even if the Bible translation my be some what off.

 

[Giver]

Pax:

I have already answered this…it refers to “apostasy” which is the complete rejection of the faith. This in no way represents a one time or occassional fall into serious sin. This was pointed out to you before and you should already know this.

These verses are perfectly congruent with what we have been telling you. A good way to uderstand what Paul is saying about all of this in Romans is to look at Romans 6:6 which says: " We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin." This is reiterated more clearly in verse 16 which reads as follows:

"Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Please notice the terminology used by Paul. He uses the word “slave.” This is congruent with Peter’s use of the words “entangled” and “mastered,” and with John’s use of the present tense in 1 John 3:6. As pointed out to you earlier, John uses the Greek present tense in referring to sin. It means “habitual sinning,” and all of the texts you were using from 1 John basically refer to habitual sinning.

I hope this helps.

The people who translated the Bible should have consulted you first right? You would have told them how it should have been done.

 

[Giver]

Pax:

This is merely an interpretation on your part and an errant one at that. When scripture speaks of debts and trespasses in the Lord’s prayer and surrounding passages, it is, indeed, speaking of sin. You are the only person I have heard that contends otherwise. So how do we know that it refers to sin? It’s the context of the prayer. We are taught to depend on God, we are taught to forgive in order to be forgiven, and we ask God to keep us from temptation and deliver us from evil. This is all about sin and to suggest otherwise is simply wrong.

This is true but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Daniel Marsh addressed this so I won’t bother.

This is ridiculous. Jesus taught in parables and he explained the difficult ones. We don’t simply read anything we want into them. Perhaps you have been doing so, which might explain your difficulties.
Giver

I quite understand your difficulty with James 4:1-10. The passage clearly denies your view.

You have not answered my arguments at all and you have clearly dodged James 4:1-10. Until you can logically refute the passages given to you and until you can address James 4:1-10, I am not going to bother covering the old ground again. I will, however, address the new stuff.

Please be advised that you are misrepresenting what is said in this passage from 2nd Peter. The opening line of your quote should tell you what it means. The second half of the verse says, “…who then allows himself to be entangled by it a second time and mastered, will end up in a worse state than he began in.” Clearly this does not refer to a one time or occassional falling into serious sin. Entanglement and mastered means that a person is immersed as in a life style, it is continuous, and they are mastered by Satan and sin and the person is at enmity with God.
I see James as supporting what I have been saying all along. He is telling sinners to get close to God. I hope you don’t think he was talking to people who knew God. Anyone who knows wouldn’t sin.
Giver