Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn't know God, just ask Ananias!

[Giver]

Daniel Marsh:

Lets look at Stephen in Acts, he never spoke in tongues

Acts 6 lists his gifts as,

8Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. 9Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, 10but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.

Acts 7 Stephen sees into heaven,

51"You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53you who have received the law that was put into effect through angels but have not obeyed it."

54When they heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.

The point is, Stephens’s gifts were wonders and miracles, preaching the gospel and dying for Christ. He plainly says the Holy Spirit was active in the OT times in prophets. He Saw Jesus Our LORD standing at the right hand of his Father.
In this text we have all three members of the Trinity active and accounted for.

All Spirit filled people don’t have the same gifts.

(1 Corinthians 12:27-30) “Now you together are Christ’s body; but each of you as a different part of it. In the Church, God has given the first place to apostles, the second to prophets, the third to teachers; after them, miracles, and after them the gift of healing; helpers, good leaders, those with many languages. Do they all have the gift of miracles, or all have the gift of healing? Do all speak strange languages, and all interpret them?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Isaiah 63:11
But he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people: Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he that put his holy Spirit within him, (DBY)

Giver it is clear you are reading the scriptures with blinders on, just proof texting here and there and not reading all the scriptures.

2 Chronicles 24:20
Then the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah son of Jehoiada the priest…

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Isaiah 30:1
Woe to the Obstinate Nation ] “Woe to the obstinate children,” declares the LORD, "to those who carry out plans that are not mine, forming an alliance, but not by my Spirit, heaping sin upon sin;

Isaiah 48:16
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit.

Isaiah 59:21
“As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD. “My Spirit, who is on you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouths of your children, or from the mouths of their descendants from this time on and forever,” says the LORD.

Haggai 2:5
‘This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear.’

Zechariah 4:6
So he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the LORD Almighty.

Zechariah 7:12
They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

How did those in the walk of faith in Hebrews 11, have the gift of faith without the Holy Spirit? Faith is a gift of God, Eph 2:8-10. That gift is given through the Holy Spirit. I Cor 12-14.
**
You can’t deny the fact that the disciples recieved the Holy Spirit in John 20:22 without speaking in tongues.
**

 

[Giver]

[/quote]

Pax, I have answered these objections of yours before, but some how I didn’t communicate very well to you.

The first part of (1 John) he must have been writing to people in all different steps in their walk with Jesus

(1 John 2:12-17) “I am writing to you, my own children, whose sins have already been forgiven through his name; I am writing to you, fathers, who have come to know the one who has existed since the beginning; I am writing to you, young men, who have already overcome the Evil One; I have written to you, children, because you already know the Father; I have written to you, gathers, because you have come to know the one who has existed since the beginning; I have written to you, young men, because you are strong and God’s word has make his home in you, and you have overcome the Evil One. You must not love this passing world or anything that is in the world. The of the Father cannot be in any man who loves the world, because nothing the world has to offer-the sensual body, the lustful eye, pride in possessions- could ever come from the Father but only from the world; and the world, with all it craves for, is coming to an end; but anyone who does the will of God remains for ever.”

So yes, some were babes and not mature Christians and as of yet hadn’t walked in:

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

Now if you don’t believe what I just shared then you must think that John forgot what he said in the beginning of his letter when he wrote: (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 John 3:2

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. (WEB)

Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. (ASV)

My loved ones, now we are children of God, and at present it is not clear what we are to be. We are certain that at his revelation we will be like him; for we will see him as he is. (BBE)

Beloved, now are we children of God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (DBY)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (KJV)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (WBS)

Dear friends, we are now God’s children, but what we are to be in the future has not yet been fully revealed. We know that if Christ reappears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is. (WEY)

beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is; (YLT)

 

[Giver]

1 John 3:2

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that, when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is. (WEB)

Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is. (ASV)

My loved ones, now we are children of God, and at present it is not clear what we are to be. We are certain that at his revelation we will be like him; for we will see him as he is. (BBE)

Beloved, now are we children of God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (DBY)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (KJV)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (WBS)

Dear friends, we are now God’s children, but what we are to be in the future has not yet been fully revealed. We know that if Christ reappears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is. (WEY)

beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is; (YLT)

Your point is?

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

read the chapter for context

 

[Eireann]

Giver:

The Holy Spirit wasn’t given to man until Pentecost.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Luke 1:67 And Zachary his father was filled with the Holy Ghost; and he prophesied, saying:

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

John received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, etc;

 

[Pax]

Giver:

Pax, I have answered these objections of yours before, but some how I didn’t communicate very well to you.

The first part of (1 John) he must have been writing to people in all different steps in their walk with Jesus

(1 John 2:12-17) “I am writing to you, my own children, whose sins have already been forgiven through his name; I am writing to you, fathers, who have come to know the one who has existed since the beginning; I am writing to you, young men, who have already overcome the Evil One; I have written to you, children, because you already know the Father; I have written to you, gathers, because you have come to know the one who has existed since the beginning; I have written to you, young men, because you are strong and God’s word has make his home in you, and you have overcome the Evil One. You must not love this passing world or anything that is in the world. The of the Father cannot be in any man who loves the world, because nothing the world has to offer-the sensual body, the lustful eye, pride in possessions- could ever come from the Father but only from the world; and the world, with all it craves for, is coming to an end; but anyone who does the will of God remains for ever.”

So yes, some were babes and not mature Christians and as of yet hadn’t walked in:

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

Now if you don’t believe what I just shared then you must think that John forgot what he said in the beginning of his letter when he wrote: (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

Unfortunately, your answers don’t change the truth of the message. John is speaking the same words to “everyone” in his letter and his words apply to all of us regardless of our stage in life. Please go back to my Post #11. This is the understanding of John’s first letter held by Christians. This is not something I made up. You will have virtually every Christian disagreeing with your personal interpetation on 1st John and scripture tells us that the word is “not a matter of one’s own interpretation”[2 Peter 1:20]

Your contention that in “The first part of (1 John) he must have been writing to people in all different steps in their walk with Jesus” is true except that you somehow conclude that the letter therefore applies differently to people at different stages of their walk. This is not true for God shows no partiality in the forgiveness of sins. God forgives “all” who repent regardless of their stage in life.

God makes his forgiveness clear in several places in the book of Ezekiel and elsewhere in scipture.

In Ezekiel 3:17-21 it says:
“Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

Please note that God does not change and this is how he will judge us. The key is to repent and turn away from iniquity. This is consistent with all that has been given to you and differs greatly from what you have shared based on your personal interpretation. So please heed the word of God. Even a righteous man can sin, repent, and be forgiven.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

Pax, I have answered these objections of yours before, but some how I didn’t communicate very well to you.

…

So yes, some were babes and not mature Christians and as of yet hadn’t walked in:

…

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”

I have explained these verses from Hebrews to you at least twice in PM’s and other threads. This passage refers to “apostasy.” Virtually every bible commentary, whether it be Catholic or Protestant, says that the passage refers to apostasy. This is the Christian understanding. It does not refer to typical mortal sins. You should know this by now.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

…
…
and the Holy Spirit moved him, but didn’t possess David.
…
…
…

Robert,

I am curious what you mean when you use the above terminology. Are you using the term “the Holy Spirit…didn’t possess David” in a way that would be similar but opposed to demonic “possession?”

Please explain.

 

[Giver]

Pax:

Robert,

I am curious what you mean when you use the above terminology. Are you using the term “the Holy Spirit…didn’t possess David” in a way that would be similar but opposed to demonic “possession?”

Please explain.

I don’t know how Evil spirits possess people, and it isn’t anything Jesus has led me to understand.

I will share how the Holy Spirit possesses me. He is united with my Spirit and teaches, guides, and gives me His gifts as they are needed. Much of the time I don’t initiate my thoughts, they are given to me by the Holy Spirit. At times when Jesus is very close to me; during prayer, sharing, or helping someone, my chest will grow very warm and I know my spirit is being blessed.

(Romans 8:1-4) “The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature, was unable to do. God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body, and in that body God condemned sin. He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the spirit dictates.

You should notice were Paul tells us that God dealt with sin by sending His Son. So everyone should see that before Jesus sin wasn’t dealt with. Man had no real protection from sin.
Giver

 

[Giver]

Pax:

Unfortunately, your answers don’t change the truth of the message. John is speaking the same words to “everyone” in his letter and his words apply to all of us regardless of our stage in life. Please go back to my Post #11. This is the understanding of John’s first letter held by Christians. This is not something I made up. You will have virtually every Christian disagreeing with your personal interpetation on 1st John and scripture tells us that the word is “not a matter of one’s own interpretation”[2 Peter 1:20]

Your contention that in “The first part of (1 John) he must have been writing to people in all different steps in their walk with Jesus” is true except that you somehow conclude that the letter therefore applies differently to people at different stages of their walk. This is not true for God shows no partiality in the forgiveness of sins. God forgives “all” who repent regardless of their stage in life.

God makes his forgiveness clear in several places in the book of Ezekiel and elsewhere in scipture.

In Ezekiel 3:17-21 it says:
“Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me. If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

Please note that God does not change and this is how he will judge us. The key is to repent and turn away from iniquity. This is consistent with all that has been given to you and differs greatly from what you have shared based on your personal interpretation. So please heed the word of God. Even a righteous man can sin, repent, and be forgiven.

(Romans 8:1-4) “The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature, was unable to do. God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body, and in that body God condemned sin. He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the spirit dictates.
You should notice were Paul tells us that God dealt with sin by sending His Son. So everyone should see that before Jesus sin wasn’t dealt with. Man had no real protection from sin.

 

[Giver]

(Romans 8:1-4) “The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature, was unable to do. God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body, and in that body God condemned sin. He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the spirit dictates.
You should notice were Paul tells us that God dealt with sin by sending His Son. So everyone should see that before Jesus sin wasn’t dealt with. Man had no real protection from sin.

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

So! Was John a liar?

 

[Pax]

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

So! Was John a liar?

Here is the problem. John does not lie and I never said that he did. You simply have grabbed hold of certain verses of scripture and refused to place them along side all of the other verses that give a full context. You have “your” own ideas separate from true Christian teaching.

I fully agree with you that Jesus came to destroy and abolish sin. Furthermore, I agree that a Christian can conquer sin by grace. When you first joined the forums under your own name, I complimented you on this insight. Moreover, I pointed out that most Protestants that I have come in contact with didn’t seem to get this point even though it’s scriptural.

Where you and I part company is at the same point that you part company with scripture and the constant teaching of the Church since Pentecost.

You say that a mature Christian does not sin. Scripture says otherwise.

You say that a Christian that commits any serious sin, even once, can never be forgiven. Scripture says otherwise.

Not only does scripture disagree with you but the constant teaching of Christianity since Pentecost disagrees with you. The problem is not with scripture or the Church. You have placed yourself above both. Moreover, you make your own personal interpretations of scripture and you then place those interpretations above everything else. This is a serious problem, but you refuse to face it.

You quoted John again, but you are merely repeating something out of context. The context is found in the entire letter, and I showed you some of the verses that qualify this set of passages. Simply go back and read this thread over again and you will get the picture loud and clear. Whether you accept it or not is another matter.

I will ask you a couple of bold questions. Do you really believe that everyone else is wrong, including Augustine and Acquinas, and that you are right? Do you really believe that Christianity has had this issue wrong since the get go?

 

[Pax]

Giver:

I don’t know how Evil spirits possess people, and it isn’t anything Jesus has led me to understand.

I will share how the Holy Spirit possesses me. He is united with my Spirit and teaches, guides, and gives me His gifts as they are needed. Much of the time I don’t initiate my thoughts, they are given to me by the Holy Spirit. At times when Jesus is very close to me; during prayer, sharing, or helping someone, my chest will grow very warm and I know my spirit is being blessed.

Giver

I find your terminology problematic (i.e.“possesses”). First of all, it is not scriptural and secondly it is not theologically appropriate. What I view as problems in your scriptural understandings may stem in part from the way you understand certain words as well as the way you use the language. If you use terms and language that do not conform to scripture, you will not have a firm and clear grip on the truth.

I am all in favor of everyone abolishing sin in their lives. Believe me, I try to eliminate even venial sin in my walk with Jesus. Afterall, Peter tells us, "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”[1 Peter1:14-16]. Like the rest of the believers that are still above the sod, I am a work in progress.

I could go on and on about eliminating all sin in one’s life and the need for holiness. I can cite verse after verse in scripture that demonstrates that we are called to holiness. I have read and know many more verses on this subject than you have quoted in your posts. The difference is that I have also read all of the other verses in scripture pertaining to falling into sin, seeking repentance, and being forgiven.

 

[Giver]

Pax:

Here is the problem. John does not lie and I never said that he did. You simply have grabbed hold of certain verses of scripture and refused to place them along side all of the other verses that give a full context. You have “your” own ideas separate from true Christian teaching.

I fully agree with you that Jesus came to destroy and abolish sin. Furthermore, I agree that a Christian can conquer sin by grace. When you first joined the forums under your own name, I complimented you on this insight. Moreover, I pointed out that most Protestants that I have come in contact with didn’t seem to get this point even though it’s scriptural.

Where you and I part company is at the same point that you part company with scripture and the constant teaching of the Church since Pentecost.

You say that a mature Christian does not sin. Scripture says otherwise.

You say that a Christian that commits any serious sin, even once, can never be forgiven. Scripture says otherwise.

Not only does scripture disagree with you but the constant teaching of Christianity since Pentecost disagrees with you. The problem is not with scripture or the Church. You have placed yourself above both. Moreover, you make your own personal interpretations of scripture and you then place those interpretations above everything else. This is a serious problem, but you refuse to face it.

You quoted John again, but you are merely repeating something out of context. The context is found in the entire letter, and I showed you some of the verses that qualify this set of passages. Simply go back and read this thread over again and you will get the picture loud and clear. Whether you accept it or not is another matter.

I will ask you a couple of bold questions. Do you really believe that everyone else is wrong, including Augustine and Acquinas, and that you are right? Do you really believe that Christianity has had this issue wrong since the get go?

I know I am not ever going to convince you. No matter how many scriptures say exactly, and not out of context as you accuse me of every time they say something you can’t believe, what I know to be true. If you did agree then you would see that the Church is wrong and I suppose your whole world would fall apart if you found that to be true.

I believe most Catholics are very much like the Pharisees were when Jesus talked to them. I believe even when Jesus tells Christians today something different from what their church has taught them, they say it must be Satan.

 

[Eireann]

thistle:

You claimed that anyone who knows God cannot sin. Eireann was pointing out to you that Satan and the other fallen angels knew God intimately but they sinned. How do you reconcile that?

Giver **when are you going to answer this question ??? **

Title of thread, as we do seem to have drifted. " **Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn’t know God, just ask Ananias! **

And your title does point to mortal sin, up above you all but admitted mortal and venial sins.

 

[Eireann]

(1 John 3: 3 - 9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray; to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy; to lead a sinful life is to belong to the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

So! Was John a liar?

Douay-Rheims 3 And every one that hath this hope in him, sanctifieth himself, as he also is holy.** 4** Whosoever committeth sin committeth also iniquity; and sin is iniquity.** 5** And you know that he appeared to take away our sins, and in him there is no sin.

No sin in Jesus.

4 “Iniquity”… transgression of the law.

6 ** Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not; and whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him, nor known him. 7** Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil: for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared, that he might destroy the works of the devil. **9 ** Whosoever is born of God, committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him, and he can not sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. Whosoever is not just, is not of God, nor he that loveth not his brother.

6 *“Sinneth not”… viz., mortally. See chap. 1. 8. *

John 1:8** If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.**

9 "Committeth not sin"… That is, as long as he keepeth in himself this seed of grace, and this divine generation, by which he is born of God. But then he may fall from this happy state, by the abuse of his free will, as appears from Rom. 11. 20-22; Cor. 9. 27; and 10. 12; Phil. 2. 12; Apoc. 3. 11.

 

[Pax]

Giver:

I know I am not ever going to convince you. No matter how many scriptures say exactly, and not out of context as you accuse me of every time they say something you can’t believe, what I know to be true. If you did agree then you would see that the Church is wrong and I suppose your whole world would fall apart if you found that to be true.

I believe most Catholics are very much like the Pharisees were when Jesus talked to them. I believe even when Jesus tells Christians today something different from what their church has taught them, they say it must be Satan.

Oh please!!!..you have gone back and forth with everyone on this thread using specific quotes from 1st John but ignoring the others. You have made no effort whatsover to reconcile the scriptures we have given you with the ones you quoted, other than to argue that John “must have been talking to baby Christians in one verse as opposed to others.” This is no argument in your favor at all. You will convince someone when you establish the truth by way of sound scriptural exegesis and the constant teaching of the Christian Church.

Novel ideas that are at variance with the gospel and the traditions laid down by the apostles are nothing more than heresy and false teachings. There is no reason at all for us to accept your views over the clear teaching of the gospel and the teachings of the apostles.

You do not “know” that what you claim is true. You have merely expressed a novel opinion and a novel interpretation of scripture and have placed it above everything else. The problem is not with the people that reject what you say. The problem is within you. You think you have the truth but you do not.

You claim that “my world would fall apart if I found out that the church was wrong.” Let’s turn that around. I think that your world would fall apart if you found out that you are wrong. In fact you operate in your “own” world of teaching and you refuse to listen to anyone. I even suggested some reading material for you in a PM and you told me that you refuse to read anything. You can’t possibly learn the truth without an open mind and heart. At least the rest of us are willing to listen to the church which scripture tells us is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

Do you believe that the church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth?”

I just love your line about most Catholics being like the Pharisees. Out of all the Catholics in the world you probably have spoken with less than .0005%, and yet you make a ridiculous generalization. This just illustrates your closed minded bigotry toward the Church which is the body of Christ. Please drop your bigoted assumptions and open your heart and mind to the truth.

You will not convince us of anything erroneous. We will, however, accept the truth if and when you present it. As long as you submit ideas contrary to scripture and the constant teachings of Christianity you will meet stiff resistance for not even the gates of hell will prevail against “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

 

[Pax]

Giver:

I know I am not ever going to convince you. No matter how many scriptures say exactly, and not out of context as you accuse me of every time they say something you can’t believe, what I know to be true.

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I have not simply made an accusation. In every case that I and others have pointed out your mistakes based on a lack of context, we have then gone on to give you all of the appropriate verses that establish the proper context and qualifiers for an accurate understanding. Not once have you actually analyzed the verses given you in this regard. The only thing you did was cite the same verses over again or cited another verse without context. This forced us into another round of correction which you also ignored.