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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
and from before,
show where it says that Satan is currently in Hell.
Anyone who willfully and deliberately sins doesn't know God, just ask Ananias!
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
We need only look to chapter one to see whom James wrote his letter to, to see if he was in fact addressing Christians
James 1
1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations:
Greetings.
2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
Yep, James is writting to Christians.
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Daniel_Marsh
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Giver you may want to define your theology in your own words without quoting scripture, say in complete sentences in outline format. Giving examples of what you consider sin that leads to irreservable spiritual death, and define your terms. In place of quoting scripture simply give the references.
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ElizabethAnne
Guest
On one hand you say:
Giver:
Giver:
On the other you say:
So which is it? You seem to be trying to argue that people who know God can’t sin yet you admit that they do. You are contradicting yourself.
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Giver
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
Notice Paul was talking to Christians, but said they were still unspiritual. That, he said, was because of their sinning. So obviously they were not mature Christians. Now James was also talking to Christians who were not mature. Now notice in the following Scripture that the Christians who were being addressed were spiritually matures Christians.
(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
Giver
(1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people? “
Notice Paul was talking to Christians, but said they were still unspiritual. That, he said, was because of their sinning. So obviously they were not mature Christians. Now James was also talking to Christians who were not mature. Now notice in the following Scripture that the Christians who were being addressed were spiritually matures Christians.
(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
Giver
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Daniel_Marsh
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Giver it looks to me and most others here that you are trying to sidestep the James text. Rather than appealing to yet another text writtten to immature christians, deal with the James text directly from the book of James itself.
In Fact, I find it funny that you keep using the Hebrews 6 text, when in fact Hebrews 5:11-6:11 cleary shows that your proof text is addressed to immature jewish christians.
James 4 (The Message)
James 4
1Where do you think all these appalling wars and quarrels come from? Do you think they just happen? Think again. They come about because you want your own way, and fight for it deep inside yourselves. 2You lust for what you don’t have and are willing to kill to get it. You want what isn’t yours and will risk violence to get your hands on it.
You wouldn’t think of just asking God for it, would you? 3And why not? Because you know you’d be asking for what you have no right to. You’re spoiled children, each wanting your own way.
In Fact, I find it funny that you keep using the Hebrews 6 text, when in fact Hebrews 5:11-6:11 cleary shows that your proof text is addressed to immature jewish christians.
James 4 (The Message)
James 4
1Where do you think all these appalling wars and quarrels come from? Do you think they just happen? Think again. They come about because you want your own way, and fight for it deep inside yourselves. 2You lust for what you don’t have and are willing to kill to get it. You want what isn’t yours and will risk violence to get your hands on it.
You wouldn’t think of just asking God for it, would you? 3And why not? Because you know you’d be asking for what you have no right to. You’re spoiled children, each wanting your own way.
Code:
4You're cheating on God. If all you want is your own way, flirting with the world every chance you get, you end up enemies of God and his way. 5And do you suppose God doesn't care? The proverb has it that "he's a fiercely jealous lover." 6And what he gives in love is far better than anything else you'll find. It's common knowledge that "God goes against the willful proud; God gives grace to the willing humble."
7So let God work his will in you. Yell a loud no to the Devil and watch him scamper. 8Say a quiet yes to God and he'll be there in no time. Quit dabbling in sin. Purify your inner life. Quit playing the field. 9Hit bottom, and cry your eyes out. The fun and games are over. Get serious, really serious. 10Get down on your knees before the Master; it's the only way you'll get on your feet.
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Giver
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
“Whoever said ‘nothings impossible’ never tried to nail jell-o to a tree”
- Lisa Bryant
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
**ah, Giver if you are depending on the word “children” in that pharaphrase called the Message to prove that those whom James was writting to are immmature christians than your claims and case is worthless.
**
James 4
1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”
7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
**
James 4
1What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
4You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely? 6But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”
7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Hi ElizabethAnne, don’t expect an answer from him that is consistent.
Scripture is plain, that we have a sin nature and as christians we do sin.
Gal 5
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
Even Paul and Peter sinned as christians.
Romans 7
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
And, it is a daily battle for us mere mortals,
Romans 12
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
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cheeto1
Guest
Thank you for the answer. You seem to be saying that the
unforgivable sins are the mortal sins.
Although you have given
many supporting scriptures, the most sensible thing to do
would be to disagree with you.
Think about this: if you convince
someone that now that they have received the Holy Spirit they
will be lost if they sin, then what if they do sin? What should
be their course of action? If they are lost anyway, it doesn’t
matter.
That’s not the way God works. As long as we live we are
responsible to master our sins. “Striking out” is so a sin. Jesus said if we are angry with our brother then we are guilty of murder. This is a sin. We won’t get away with it by calling it a mere
human fault.
The Holy Spirit gives you all the power, but no one should ever
be told to despair if they do sin. To despair is to deny God.
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Giver
Guest
I appreciate and understand your question, and also your concern.
Most Christians haven’t been taught about a spiritual relationship with Jesus. Being baptized in the Holy Spirit and walking in a gift or two of the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean someone is a mature Christian.
(Acts 10:44-45) “While Peter was still speaking the Holy Spirit came down on all the listeners. Jewish believers who had accompanied Peter were all astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit should be poured out on the pagans too.”
All the people who had received the Holy Spirit, most likely needed much more understanding and time to get to know God.
I would like to address something you wrote. You said, “if you convince
someone that now that they have received the Holy Spirit they
will be lost if they sin, then what if they do sin?”
All I can do is give a word. The job of convincing is God’s. If God convinces someone than He will also give that person the grace to live it.
Anyone who knowingly and willfully commits a sin should realize they really don’t know God. They may only know about Him.
Giver
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deb1
Guest
I have to ask how this works in life? If a fellow Christian came to you and said, Giver, I have committed adultery. Then you would advise them what? Would you tell them that they were never a Christian to begin with?
A few months back I posted about my sister-in-law’s church. A teenage girl from a troubled family kept getting saved and then doing things that she shouldn’t. Like having sex. She kept returning to the church and getting resaved. My SIL very proudly told me that she was certain that this time the girl’s salvation took because a change had come over the girl. Is this the same type of belief that you are espousing, Giver?
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Giver
Guest
Anyone who knowingly and willfully commits a sin should realize they really don’t know God. They may only know about Him. A person may believe in Jesus, but they don’t know Him yet.
I personally had a friend whom God in fact gave a physical healing, and who got involved in a very fundamentalist church and had great fervor for Jesus. I moved away and hadn’t seen my friend for ten year. When we got together again he shared that he fell back to some of his old sinful ways. I told him he most likely never really knew God. I also told him that I thought God was being very patient with him.
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cheeto1
Guest
Giver,
Do you mean to say that a sinless life is a '“fruit of the Spirit”,
like in the list from Galations? Love, Joy, Peace, etc…
Do you mean to say that a sinless life is a '“fruit of the Spirit”,
like in the list from Galations? Love, Joy, Peace, etc…
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Giver
Guest
I think the Holy Spirit brings each and everyone one of us to the truth and knowledge of God.
If someone knows Jesus and who He is, how then could they disrespect our God by disobeying Him? When a person really knows Jesus they also receive the grace to not fail Him. If anyone refuses to accept His grace then: (Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified the Son of God and openly mocked Him.”
Giver
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thistle
Guest
What Christian sect or cult do you belong to ?
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Sherlock
Guest
A very, very teensy one—consisting of one perfect, sinless member, Giver.
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thistle
Guest
I’m assuming you are making a joke and do not want to tell us (don’t know why, are you ashamed of it?) otherwise if you were serious you would be guilty of the sin of pride. Nobody on earth is perfect or sinless!!
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Sherlock
Guest
Thistle, read the name on the post. You asked Giver what sect he belonged to. I (not Giver) suggested that it was a very small sect consisting of Giver. I suggested this (and yes, I am being somewhat sarcastic) that since Giver knows that “real” Christians do not sin; and since every Christian I know does commit sin, that Giver’s sect must consist of him and him alone.
I just have to wonder if those around him (family and co-workers) would support this notion.
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