AOC: A Society With Billionaires Cannot Be Moral

[qui_est_ce]

So true. Read emphasized text_The Millionaire Next Door_emphasized text

Our public schools are very well funded. It costs more to educate a child in a public school than in a private school. St. Louis Public schools spent over $15,000.00 per child in 2013, yet a large number of students are not reading at grade level. But just throw more money at them.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

But what if you can’t save, are struggling with living costs, you don’t have many job options, little social supports like being unable to rely on family and community and other issues like struggling from a difficult background and/or complex issues like medical, disability or psychological issues? Aka, you have been dealt with a really bad hand in life.

 

[Ridgerunner]

On the other hand, one occasionally reads about or is told about some person who never made much in the way of wages, dying and people finding hundreds of thousands in their house or apartment. Some of that depends on luck. Around here there are “Walmart millionaires” and others who worked for the company, never made much, but kept up with the employee stock option program over the years. There are other companies around here just like that.

But some of it is just people living below their means. I’ll say this, the main causes of poverty around here are having children outside marriage, divorce, and drugs. (not necessarily in combination, of course)

 

[Ridgerunner]

Not just St. Louis. That’s pervasive, unfortunately. But they do get to build fancy new buildings now and then.

 

[Ridgerunner]

People with medical issues that prevent them from working are a case all their own. Same with some having psych issues. But lots of people don’t have any support structures in place; probably most people don’t to any significant degree.

I know full well what it’s like to struggle with living costs. I also know what people with really tough backgrounds can do. I worked in an orphanage in St. Louis while I was in graduate school, and I was impressed with most of the kids.

 

[empacae]

I’m pretty sure Jesus lived before “capitalists” and capitalism could really be said to exist.

Capitalism began when I had 3 potatoes and you had 4 turnips and I traded 2 potatoes for 1 of your turnips.

Capitalism is woven in to the very fabric of humanity and civilization. The name given to it and when by economists is irrelevant.

 

[qui_est_ce]

But what if you can’t save, are struggling with living costs, you don’t have many job options, little social supports like being unable to rely on family and community and other issues like struggling from a difficult background and/or complex issues like medical, disability or psychological issues? Aka, you have been dealt with a really bad hand in life.

Right now you are catastrophying. Move to St. Louis. It’s cheap here. Gas is $1.65/gallon. Median price for home is far less than the national average. If immigrants from Italy can come to the US on a boat without knowing the language or the culture, an American ought to be able to move from one English speaking state to another. These immigrants lost all family social support. They didn’t have cell phones to call their families in Italy.

There are social services for disabilities and hardship cases. I know.

Don’t assume everybody has it easy. Every body has a story.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Social Services would be after you if they found out the conditions you put your kids through.

 

[empacae]

My financial planner says that your life’s partner is the single greatest investment anyone can make in their life. Took me awhile to chew and digest his words. But he is right.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Social Services would be after you if they found out the conditions you put your kids through.

Probably. But they sure would have taken me away from my parents. Growing up in the country then was not exactly being pampered.

 

[Ridgerunner]

My financial planner says that your life’s partner is the single greatest investment anyone can make in their life. Took me awhile to chew and digest his words. But he is right.

I’m inclined to agree, almost without reservation, particularly if you stay with them for life.

 

[JonNC]

First, the vast majority of our nation’s federal taxes have gone one place, the military and associated offensive efforts. This is not justice.

First. Your statement is inaccurate. The vast amount does not go to defense, though defense is a just expenditure if employed properly.

=“OneSheep, post:66, topic:532031”]
Secondly, the government is ridiculously incompetent when it comes to saving money. The government is in debt to its gills and beyond, it is grossly poor.

Absolutely agree. Why on Earth would anyone, while knowing this fact, recommend given government even more power or greater access to the property of citizens?

Jesus did not say that taxes were wrong, he told us to pay what was due Ceasar, and that was when the government was doing practically nothing to help the poor.

I would contend it was precisely because government was doing little for people. He instead calls us to help the poor out of love, not out of coercion. If love is of God, we are not called to render unto Caesar that which is God’s.

…but what we can see is that the concentration of wealth in this world, at the expense of those suffering poverty, is unjust. And you won’t find a single modern pope disagreeing with that.

I reject the zero-sum premise, that people are poor because others are rich. It is a falsehood. If pope’s believe this, I respectfully contend they are mistaken.
The goal must be to grow the wealth, not destroy wealth through redistribution.

And to be frank, I struggle with this every day. How much wealth should I give away? It is part of my daily prayer. I am thankful that at least part of my taxes goes toward helping those in need.

Same here. It doesn’t bother me that some of my taxes go to help those in need. What I oppose is the mindset that people should be forced to.

Do you find yourself thinking that Ayn Rand represents Jesus, the church, the Holy Spirit?

No more or less than AOC.

 

[JonNC]

Perhaps from their interpretation, they don’t necessarily see it as “confiscation” but society making a collective and democratic choice to pool their resources into public goods? Okay, I could see where the coercive part comes in but rather perhaps it’s the people who are trying to make a societal decision?

If I form a neighborhood association and we decide that Joe doesn’t need his third car, but Steve down the street needs a car, and we democratically vote to take Joe’s car and give it to Steve. That’s collective and democratic.
It is also theft.

Additionally, there is concern that private charity will not have the capacity/capability or ability to reach those in need and thus the greater evil would be letting the needy go without over taking a portion of the taxpayer’s earnings (especially since let’s like many taxpayers are willing to part with their earnings but I can also see where this argument falls since they are also decided with other people’s funds).

The source of resources that charities have are identical to that of government: the American people. Local charities have a better idea of local needs than bureaucrats in Washington.
As has been mentioned, the track record of the general government is terrible when it comes to stewardship of funds and having a positive impact on reducing poverty.

 

[JimG]

The easiest way to become a millionaire is to live below your means and save routinely. I read on a financial site that the average family wastes something like $5,000 each year on non-essentials. If they had skipped the routine Starbucks and fast food and invested that same amount instead, they would be quite well off by retirement.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I absolutely believe you’re right. I would add never divorcing your spouse.

 

[petra22]

In fact the rich fool ( Luke 12:16-21) with all his barns full of grain, who tore them down and built bigger barns and filled them with grain and then said he would feast and be merry… God told him this night his life would be required of him…

God does not FORCE us to be humble, to be generous, to be good and neither should government… neither should other people who think they have all the righteous answers… I will give the clothing on my back with joy to someone in need. My free will. Please stop judging me (not you JonNC) as greedy, ignorant, etc…

 

[qui_est_ce]

I absolutely believe you’re right. I would add never divorcing your spouse.

So true. My leaving my husband was horrible for me financially. Had to be done though, and I’m glad I did it for my and my kids’ sake.

I was a SAHM, so my SS is also affected. I need to work until I’m 70 to recoup some of the lost contributions.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Retirement is a curious thing. Lots of people look forward to it and some really need it, particularly physical workers. For some, it seems only to have negative aspects. For others, it just seems unnecessary.

 

[OneSheep]

First. Your statement is inaccurate. The vast amount does not go to defense, though defense is a just expenditure if employed properly.

Federal Spending: Where Does the Money Go

In fiscal year 2014, the federal government will spend around $3.8 trillion. These trillions of dollars make up a considerable chunk - around 22 percent - of the US. economy, as measured by Gross Domestic Product (GDP). That means that federal government spending makes up a sizable share of all...

www.nationalpriorities.org

That one shows 2015, which was the lowest year in the last 10:

Military spending U.S.| Statista

In 2024, the United States spent around 997.3 billion U.S.

www.statista.com

If love is of God, we are not called to render unto Caesar that which is God’s.

The US government is not Caesar. The US government reflects, mostly, the will of the people.

I reject the zero-sum premise, that people are poor because others are rich. It is a falsehood

I agree, and I believe the popes would agree also. There are many causes of poverty, and the solutions are complex, but the structures that lead to imbalance of wealth are a hindrance to solutions.

The goal must be to grow the wealth, not destroy wealth through redistribution.

Redistribution benefits everyone, including the wealthy. For the wealthy who care about the impoverished, they know this. For the wealthy that do not, they do not know this.

What I oppose is the mindset that people should be forced to.

Could you describe the mindset that wants people to be forced to pay their taxes? What do people want in forcing this?

No more or less than AOC.

Whew!

 

[JonNC]

Your sources prove that the vast majority of government spending doesn’t go to defense. Even this year, defense is roughly $700 billion out of a $4 + trillion budget.

The US government is not Caesar. The US government reflects, mostly, the will of the people.

No. Caesar is a metaphor for government.

I agree, and I believe the popes would agree also. There are many causes of poverty, and the solutions are complex, but the structures that lead to imbalance of wealth are a hindrance to solutions.

There are many causes of poverty, “imbalance of wealth “ is not one of them. One of the structures happens to be the welfare state.

Redistribution benefits everyone, including the wealthy. For the wealthy who care about the impoverished, they know this. For the wealthy that do not, they do not know this.

When you take property in order to give it to someone who hasn’t earned it, that’s theft. Redistribution is theft, unless it is voluntary. It is only beneficial when it is voluntary.

Could you describe the mindset that wants people to be forced to pay their taxes? What do people want in forcing this?

This is not what I was responding to.

You said:

And to be frank, I struggle with this every day. How much wealth should I give away? It is part of my daily prayer. I am thankful that at least part of my taxes goes toward helping those in need.
I responded:

Same here. It doesn’t bother me that some of my taxes go to help those in need. What I oppose is the mindset that people should be forced to.

I reject the mindset of requiring people to help the needy. “Required charity” is an oxymoron, kind of like “compulsory volunteerism”.
People should pay their taxes. People should voluntarily help the least of His children. The former is rendering unto Caesar, the latter is rendering unto God.