AP: Sexual misconduct plagues US schools

[ltravis]

In the news today:

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071020/ap_on_re_us/teacher_sex_abuse

Couple of things strike me here:

First:

The overwhelming majority of cases the AP examined involved teachers in public schools. Private school teachers rarely turn up because many are not required to have a teaching license and, even when they have one, disciplinary actions are typically handled within the school.

I have a problem with the wording here. It implies that if private school teachers needed licenses and handled disciplinary actions publicly, that there would be just as much misconduct turning up as there is in the public schools. That has not been established.

Second:
It is interesting is that the study makes it clear that the abusers get the benefit of the doubt from those in charge as well as the general public. The victims are not believed and get ostracized, even if their accusations are proven true. Hmmm, how different the reaction is in these cases as compared to the clerical abuse scandals where it seems all priests are assumed to be predators.

-Larry

 

[Fitz]

In the news today:
It is interesting is that the study makes it clear that the abusers get the benefit of the doubt from those in charge as well as the general public. The victims are not believed and get ostracized, even if their accusations are proven true. Hmmm, how different the reaction is in these cases as compared to the clerical abuse scandals where it seems all priests are assumed to be predators.

-Larry

Yes, we all see that if a priest is accused, then there is a media pile on. Let’s not forget Robin Williams rant recently that put down the Catholic Church and the priest scandal. There is a different standard by which a priest is measured.

The teacher scandal if far greater, far more prevalent, and far more covered up. I realy don’t get it. Maybe if they were plagued with law suits and had to close down districts, then we would hear about it.

 

[FishMonger]

Yes, we all see that if a priest is accused, then there is a media pile on. Let’s not forget Robin Williams rant recently that put down the Catholic Church and the priest scandal. There is a different standard by which a priest is measured.

The teacher scandal if far greater, far more prevalent, and far more covered up. I realy don’t get it.

There is a different standard. The Church places itself in a position of claiming to be God’s representative on earth, having the answers for the problems of humanity, and determining the proper moral code for people. It sets very high standards for itself, and it is judged by those same standards.

We have yet to see if high level managers of the school systems transferred abusing teachers from one school to another. If so, that would be comparable to the equally base bahavior of the bishops.

But the schools never claim to be God’s representative.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .
We have yet to see if high level managers of the school systems transferred abusing teachers from one school to another. If so, that would be comparable to the equally base bahavior of the bishops.

. . …

That got Gary C. Lindsey fired from his first teaching job in Oelwein, Iowa. But it didn’t end his career. He taught for decades in Illinois and Iowa, fending off at least a half-dozen more abuse accusations.

 

[FishMonger]

Joe Kelley:
“That got Gary C. Lindsey fired from his first teaching job in Oelwein, Iowa. But it didn’t end his career. He taught for decades in Illinois and Iowa, fending off at least a half-dozen more abuse accusations.”

I suppose the first question I would ask is whether the different districts knew about his past. My faith in the efficiency of the bureaucracy is limited. He could have moved because the new districts simply didn’t know what he had done.

On the other hand, if a single superintendent in a single district shuffled him from school to school, that would be very similar to what the bishops did.

And, to be fair to the bishops, there were cases where the receiving bishop was not told of an abusive priest’s conduct in the sending diocese.

 

[Fitz]

There is a different standard. The Church places itself in a position of claiming to be God’s representative on earth, having the answers for the problems of humanity, and determining the proper moral code for people. It sets very high standards for itself, and it is judged by those same standards.

We have yet to see if high level managers of the school systems transferred abusing teachers from one school to another. If so, that would be comparable to the equally base bahavior of the bishops.

But the schools never claim to be God’s representative.

I agree that teachers are not God’s representatives and it is different. However I am a teacher and I am mandated to report any suspected child abuse suspicions I have to proper authorities. I can be prosecuted for negligence of any type to children. Also many teachers sign a morals clause. I really don’t think it is totally different. In my mind it is worse if a teacher, that goes into their profession or their vocation in order to help children, abuses children than if some other random person does the abuse. A child looks up to a teacher and a child is captive in a classroom. I think it is such a horrible thing for a teacher to violate a child that they are mandated to protect.

Maybe some school administrator can help on this idea. As teachers, we all know who the really bad teachers are. It is sort of obvious. However, when a bad teacher wants to leave, I think it may not be uncommon for them to get an OK recommendation because the administrator is happy to get rid of a person that is a pain. Just specualtion on my part. Oh and we all know it is almost impossible to fire a Union backed teacher.

 

[FishMonger]

I agree that teachers are not God’s representatives and it is different. However I am a teacher and I am mandated to report any suspected child abuse suspicions I have to proper authorities. I can be prosecuted for negligence of any type to children. Also many teachers sign a morals clause. I really don’t think it is totally different. In my mind it is worse if a teacher, that goes into their profession or their vocation in order to help children, abuses children than if some other random person does the abuse. A child looks up to a teacher and a child is captive in a classroom. I think it is such a horrible thing for a teacher to violate a child that they are mandated to protect.

Maybe some school administrator can help on this idea. As teachers, we all know who the really bad teachers are. It is sort of obvious. However, when a bad teacher wants to leave, I think it may not be uncommon for them to get an OK recommendation because the administrator is happy to get rid of a person that is a pain. Just specualtion on my part. Oh and we all know it is almost impossible to fire a Union backed teacher.

Child abuse by anybody should not be tolerated at any level. However, in dealing with the observation that there are different standads, we have to look to the expectations set up by different groups.

Those who claim a connection to god will be judged most harshly. Those like teachers, who claim to be trustworthy, and into whose hands we entrust our kids, will also be judged harshly, but nor as harshly as the people who claim the god connection. Truck drivers will be judged less harshly because they don’t set up any special expectations of themselves.

When I say they will be judged, I mean in terms of social opprobrium. News, commentary, and general condemnation will be increased.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .
I suppose the first question I would ask is whether the different districts knew about his past. My faith in the efficiency of the bureaucracy is limited. He could have moved because the new districts simply didn’t know what he had done.
. . …

In evaluating his qualifications to teach didn’t they look at references or employment history? Had they no curiosity as to why he left his last job? Can I just go in and claim to be a teacher and get hired?

 

[ltravis]

When I say they will be judged, I mean in terms of social opprobrium. News, commentary, and general condemnation will be increased.

Yes, this is expected, as is how it should be - for those who have done wrong. However it remains an unfair double standard that completely innocent priests do not receive the benefit of the doubt if accused, even though they *do *uphold their high standard. Indeed, social opinion often seems to imply *all *priests are corrupt. I won’t ever forget Fr. Corapi’s poignant story about how at an airport a mother sneered and pulled her child away from him after he did no more than smile when the child looked at him. Certainly priests who fall should receive greater approbation, but even the innocent ones?

-Larry

 

[FishMonger]

In evaluating his qualifications to teach didn’t they look at references or employment history? Had they no curiosity as to why he left his last job? Can I just go in and claim to be a teacher and get hired?

I don’t know. I have no reason to presume they did or they didn’t.

You can just go in and claim to be a teacher in a private school, but a public school you have to show certification. However, in many public districts non-certified people can be substitutes.

 

[FishMonger]

Yes, this is expected, as is how it should be - for those who have done wrong. However it remains an unfair double standard that completely innocent priests do not receive the benefit of the doubt if accused, even though they *do *uphold their high standard. Indeed, social opinion often seems to imply *all *priests are corrupt. I won’t ever forget Fr. Corapi’s poignant story about how at an airport a mother sneered and pulled her child away from him after he did no more than smile when the child looked at him. Certainly priests who fall should receive greater approbation, but even the innocent ones?

-Larry

That’s true, and it’s an unfortunate legacy of the incedible damage done to the Church by the abusuve priests and the bishops who enabled them. Prior to this scandal the Chrch was held in high esteem by the entire society, not just Catholics. The work the Church did in school, hospitals, orphanages, etc benefited everyone.

Had the bishops uncovered a few bad apples and turned them over to the civil authorities, it would still have that respect. But the involvement of the bishops has nearly destroyed all that good will built up over hundreds of years by good people. The general society no longer trusts the Church.

Hence, the position of the innocent priests. They did nothing, but they still pay.

 

[Fitz]

I don’t know. I have no reason to presume they did or they didn’t.

You can just go in and claim to be a teacher in a private school, but a public school you have to show certification. However, in many public districts non-certified people can be substitutes.

I do not think any private school does this. My daughter just spent two years teaching at a Catholic elementary school and she was required to have a valid certificate. I have never heard of anyone teaching in this day and age in a private school without a valid certificate. (I am 57 and it was common when I was in elementary school for teachers to not have a certificate or sometimes even a degree).

You are right that non certified people can sub.It varies from state to state. Illinois requires a degree at least. Sometimes a district requires a college degree, but other times not.

 

[FishMonger]

I do not think any private school does this. My daughter just spent two years teaching at a Catholic elementary school and she was required to have a valid certificate. I have never heard of anyone teaching in this day and age in a private school without a valid certificate. (I am 57 and it was common when I was in elementary school for teachers to not have a certificate or sometimes even a degree).

You are right that non certified people can sub.It varies from state to state. Illinois requires a degree at least. Sometimes a district requires a college degree, but other times not.

A private school may choose to require it, but it is not usually a requirement imposed on the school by state authorities. However, teachers unions have been lobbying very hard to require certification in all schools and laws var by state.

For example, Pennsylvania has some private schools that are licensed by the state. Those teachers need state certification. They also have private schools that are not licensed by the state. These include almost all religious schools. Certification is not needed for these schools.

On the other hand, I think Michigan requires state certification for private school teachers, but not home schoolers who are specifically exempted.

The private school is interested in getting good teachers. So, they might be very happy to employ a retired engineer to teach calulus, regardless of his certification.

 

[manualman]

Man, if they someday employ ME as a retired engineer to teach calculus, they are in for a disappointment!

Frankly, the lesson our culture SHOULD have learned from the priest scandal is NOT that priests can be abusers. We should have learned that abusers seek positions of trust, authority and opportunity over kids and that EVEN priests can be abusers. Too bad the typical journalists chose to place sensation over true public education in how the stories are handled. Had they reported this all responsibly, we’d be seeing careful screening and monitoring going on in all positions that meet this abuser criteria. Instead, the abusers will just adjust and go elsewhere where the heat isn’t (teachers, coaches, counselors, health care, etc…)

 

[Bennie_P]

I think you guys have gotten way off topic, I think getting off topic is part the of problem concern abuse of children, instead of looking into the problem, everyone (the public) is trying to shift blame for where our society fails as it contiunes to embrace immoral sexuality and just react with “oh my”, “wink, wink”, as the results of that indiffernce toward low morals makes victims of our children.
cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/20/national/main3388380.shtml?source=mostpop_story

The AP discovered efforts to stop individual offenders but, overall, a deeply entrenched resistance toward recognizing and fighting abuse. It starts in school hallways, where fellow teachers look away or feel powerless to help. School administrators make behind-the-scenes deals to avoid lawsuits and other trouble. And in state capitals and Congress, lawmakers shy from tough state punishments or any cohesive national policy for fear of disparaging a vital profession.
That only enables rogue teachers, and puts kids who aren’t likely to be believed in a tough spot.
Abuse also is treated with misplaced fascination in American culture. “It’s dealt with in a salacious manner with late-night comedians saying, ‘What 14-year-old boy wouldn’t want to have sex with his teacher?’ It trivializes the whole issue,” says Robert Shoop, a professor of educational administration at Kansas State University who wrote a book to help school districts deal with sexual misconduct.

 

[buffalo]

Maybe we can sue the districts, go back 50 years, bankrupt them, force them to attend classes, trash them in the newspapers and start the education system all over again.

 

[SILVERNAME]

I can remember how the secularists and Church-haters were so fond of attacking the Church and priests and bishops when the news of pedophile priests cam out a few years ago.

But now when the news of homophile and pedophile teachers in public schools are coming out, the secularist media are silent.

Their silence is defeaning.

 

[SILVERNAME]

Maybe we can sue the districts, go back 50 years, bankrupt them, force them to attend classes, trash them in the newspapers and start the education system all over again.

Sounds good