Apocrypha? Pope added?

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The use of the septuagint doesn’t help your case.
It doesn’t help my case?

What case is that?
The septuagint also included Maccabees 3 and 4 which you reject.
Some versions did, but traditionally the Church did not use them.
The earlier councils apparently weren’t binding upon the church as a whole or else an awful lot of catholics including Pope Gregory, Augustine, Cajetan, and Ximenes willingly rejected the councils authority.
“Apparently weren’t binding?”

The councils which debated the Canon, such as the Council of Carthage, were not Ecumenical councils. By definition, they were not binding.
 
The Septuagint was the version used by Jesus, the Apostles, and the new Testament Writers.
The Septuagint is the traditional term, derived from the Latin word meaning seventy, for the Old Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. There were 72 translators of the Hebrew test into Greek – 6 from each of the tribes of Israel around 200 to 300 BC. This translation is the earliest and one of the most valuable of the ancient biblical versions. The Septuagint was the Bible of the early Christian Church. When the Bible is quoted in the New Testament, it is almost always from the Septuagint version (close to 90% of the time). Furthermore, even when not directly quoted in the New Testament, many of the terms used and partly crafted by the Septuagint translators became part of the language of the New Testament.
The protestant reformers eventually rejected the ESTABLISHED Christian (Catholic) Canon and by doing this they follow the canon of the Old Testament as determined by Jews at the Council of Jamnia held in 90 A.D (more of a school than what we think of as a council). The Jews in this council, in an attempt to counter the early Christians who quoted the Septuagint in support of the claims of Christ, only accepted those Old Testament books which were (i) written in Hebrew; (ii) conformed to the Torah; (iii) pre-dated the time of Ezra (400 B.C.); and (iv) written in Palestine. It is, however, certain that Christ and His Apostles cited the Greek Septuagint, as over 300 of the 350 quotations from the Old Testament contained in the New are taken from it.

The Septuagint is the most ancient translation of the Old Testament and consequently is invaluable to critics for understanding and correcting the Hebrew text (Massorah). One argument was the deuterocanonical texts could not be found in Hebrew, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (which has some of the deuterocanonical texts in Hebrew) also adds validity to the Septuagint.
All early Christians (Catholics) used and accepted the Septuagint as the official Canon and when the new Testament was officially accepted in 382 it contained the Septuagint and was used universally by all Catholics (there were no other Christians at that time) until Martin Luther changed them to fit his personal philosophy.
 
The overwhelming majority of Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, including those by Jesus, himself, come from the Septaugent. It was widely used in Judea at the time – because anyone with any business interests could speak, read and write Greek, but Hebrew was a dead language, used only in religious matters.

The original demand (by Ptolomy) to translate the Scriptures into Greek was opposed by Jewish scholars in Alexandria , but they came under pressure from the Jewish lay pubic, who wanted Scripture they could read.
 
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kotes19:
The last verse of the Bible clearly states that no one is to add or take away from the scripture.
Correct.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life
, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book. Apocalypse 22:19 DRC

Now let’s hold some feet to the fire.
If the apocrypha is “inspired text” then how come it’s not in my Bible?
Luther did not remove the deuterocanons. He merely moved them to the end of the Old Testament:

James Swan claims that Luther never removed the ‘apocrypha’ from the Bible but "Sorting them out of the canonical books, he appended them at the end of the Old Testament with the caption, ‘These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read.’”[8]

What does that mean? Why have material which is merely ‘useful and good to read’? Either it is inerrant or it is not. If it is errant, then why have it in the Bible at all? Or if you are going to have it, then why not have also The Westminster Confession or the Chicago Statement or Mr Bean on Holiday?

continued…
 
The point is that Luther’s teachings and choices were not theological. They were political. The moving of the deuteros to the end of the OT was a political compromise, not a theological statement of doctrine.

Most early Protestant Bibles contained the deuteros:

**·**1534 Luther’s German translation of the Bible
**·**1534 The Coverdale Bible
**·**1537 Thomas Matthew Bible
**·**1539 The Taverner Bible
**·**1541 The “Great” or “Cromwell’s” Bible
**·**1551 The “Tyndale/ Matthews” Bible
**·**1560 The Geneva Bible
**·**1611 King James Bible
**·**1615 King James Version Robert Barker at London

continued…
 
Yet:

**·**1562: The 39 Articles of the Church of England rejected the canonicity of the apocrypha.

**·**1618: The Synod of the Reformed Church held at Dordrecht condemned the Apocrypha.

**·**1647: Westminster Confession – The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the Canon of Scripture; and therefore are of no authority in the Church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved, or made use of, than other human writings.

**·**1880: The American Bible Society voted to remove the “Apocrypha” Books from the King James Version.

**·**1885: The Apocrypha was officially removed from the English printings of the KJV by the Archbishop of Canterbury.
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life
, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book. Apocalypse 22:19 DRC

Now ask your friend how she can justify Protestants taking away from the words of the book of this prophecy?

continued…
 
Why was it added years later?
The deuteros were never added to Catholic Bibles. The Catholic Bibles always had them. Protestants took them out of the King James Bibles in 1885 but then put them back in.

Ask your friend this: If the deuteros were in Protestant Bibles until 1885, then taken out, then put back in again: how is Sola Scriptura the only reliable measure of truth?

Surely some Protestants had ‘fallible’ scriptures and others did not. Surely some Protestants were ‘adding’ or ‘taking away’ from the truth?

But how was one to know which was which? How could one be sure which version was right?

How can truth change from the 1st C to 1885 to 2007? If truth changes, then folks ernestly trusting what was formerly thought to be truth have been misled by their pastors. Jesus does not mislead.

Nor does He create institutions which mislead. That is why He created the Catholic Church and sent the Holy Spirit to protect Her from all error in matters of faith and morals.

What’s true ain’t new. What’s new ain’t true. The Reformation was a novelty.

continued…
 
The books you call deuterocanonical are a subset of the septuagint, the two are not synonymous, “septuagint” does not equal “deuterocanonical”.

The EO church also accepts books that neither one of us accept as canonical and these books were also included in the septuagint. You see, the septuagint included books such as Maccabees 3 and Maccabees 4, which we agree aren’t canonical. Just because a book was included in the septuagint does not mean that they are ipso facto canonical.

Again, “septuagint” does not equal “deuterocanonical”.
Septuagint is the Greek Translation of the Old Testment.

Deutrocanonical Books are Second Canon of OT. Hence the word Deutro meaning two.
 
As for all the other questions: ask your friend to have the courtesy to choose: does she want to have a reasoned and referenced discussion of one point at a time or does she want to unfairly and unreasonably overwhelm you?

As for me and this thread: I am dealing with the matter of scripture. That’s all. That is more than enough. That is a good strategy for you too. Because once Sola Scriptura falls down then all these other questions fall down too.

Generally CAF threads are about one topic at a time. You might want to ask the mod to split the thread into separate topics.

For a very simple, clear explanation of the history of the Bible by a Catholic speaking to Evangelicals see the following two webpages:

What’s with these “extra” books in the Bible?
(At the bottom of David’s webpage, there is a Timeline of the decisions on the books of the Bible)

Timeline of how the Bible came to us

See also: The Lost Books

For a point of view on a modern-day tradition of scripture-meddling read posts 220-234 toward the end of the following thread:

Who Interprets tradition: From a curious Evangelical
 
The deuteros were never added to Catholic Bibles. The Catholic Bibles always had them. Protestants took them out of the King James Bibles in 1885 but then put them back in.

Ask your friend this: If the deuteros were in Protestant Bibles until 1885, then taken out, then put back in again: how is Sola Scriptura the only reliable measure of truth?

Surely some Protestants had ‘fallible’ scriptures and others did not. Surely some Protestants were ‘adding’ or ‘taking away’ from the truth?

But how was one to know which was which? How could one be sure which version was right?

How can truth change from the 1st C to 1885 to 2007? If truth changes, then folks ernestly trusting what was formerly thought to be truth have been misled by their pastors. Jesus does not mislead.

Nor does He create institutions which mislead. That is why He created the Catholic Church and sent the Holy Spirit to protect Her from all error in matters of faith and morals.

What true ain’t new. What’s new ain’t true. The Reformation was a novelty.

continued…
Well said. All what you have written is True.
 
"The last verse of the Bible clearly states that no one is to add or take away from the scripture. If the apocrypha is “inspired text” then how come it’s not in my Bible?
Why was it added years later?
LOL! That’s like asking why the Catholic Church left Martin Luther.

The reason those books aren’t in her Bible is because some Protestant Reformers ripped them out — in direct violation of the very principle she cites, that nobody should tamper with God’s word.

Ask her what authority the Reformers had to rip books out of the Bible.

Don’t let her sidetrack you by hopping all over the place with Mary, saints, and other issues. Anti-Catholics love to rattle off a dozen claims too fast for you to respond. Suggest that you’d be glad to address ONE topic at a time.
 
Septuagint is the Greek Translation of the Old Testment.

Deutrocanonical Books are Second Canon of OT. Hence the word Deutro meaning two.
I thought that deutero meant ‘doubt.’ There had been some ‘doubt’ as to their canonicity.

My bad. I’m wrong. It means second cannon.
 
I thought that deutero meant ‘doubt.’ There had been some ‘doubt’ as to their canonicity.
I like to make a correction:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books

The word deuterocanonical comes from the Greek meaning ‘belonging to the second canon’. The etymology of the word is misleading, but it does indicate the hesitation with which these books were accepted into the canon by some. Note that the term does not mean non-canonical; despite this it has sometimes been used as a euphemism for the Apocrypha. It can also be applied by way of analogy to the canons of non-Catholic Christians, if the process of defining accepted scriptures involved two distinct groups of texts.

The Septuagint (IPA: 'sɛptuədʒɪnt]), or simply “LXX”, is the name commonly given in the West to the Koine Greek version of the Old Testament, translated in stages between the 3rd to 1st century BC in Alexandria.[1]

It is the oldest of several ancient translations of the Hebrew Bible into Greek. The word “septuaginta” means “seventy” in Latin and derives from a tradition that seventy-two Jewish scholars (seventy being the nearest round number) translated the Pentateuch (or Torah) from Hebrew into Greek for one of the Ptolemaic kings, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, 285-246 BC.[2] As the work of translation progressed gradually, and new books were added to the collection, the compass of the Greek Bible came to be somewhat indefinite. The Pentateuch always maintained its pre-eminence as the basis of the canon; but the prophetic collection changed its aspect by having various hagiographa incorporated into it. Some of the newer works, those called anagignoskomena in Greek, are not included in the Hebrew canon. Among these books are Maccabees and the Wisdom of Ben Sira. Also, the Septuagint version of some works, like Daniel and Esther, are longer than the Hebrew.[3] Several of the later books apparently were composed in Greek.

The authority of the larger group of writings, out of which the Kethuvim were selected, had not yet been determined, although some sort of selective process must have been employed because the Septuagint did not include other well-known Jewish documents such as Enoch or Jubilees or other writings that are now part of the Pseudepigrapha. It is not known what principles were used to determine the contents of the Septuagint beyond the Law and the Prophets.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

The Septuagint was held with great respect in ancient times; Philo and Josephus ascribed divine inspiration to its authors.[2] It is still used untranslated within Eastern Orthodoxy. Besides the Old Latin versions, the LXX is also the basis for Slavonic, Syro-Hexaplar (but not the Peshitta), Old Armenian, and Coptic versions of the Old Testament.[4] Of significance for all Christians and for bible scholars, the LXX is quoted by the Christian New Testament and by the Apostolic Fathers. While Jews have not used the LXX in worship or religious study since the second century AD, recent scholarship has brought renewed interest in it in Judaic Studies. Some of the Dead Sea scrolls attest to Hebrew texts other than those on which the Masoretic Text was based; in many cases, these newly found texts accord with the LXX version. The oldest surviving codices of LXX date to the fourth century AD.[2]
 
First there was no bible when John wrote Revelations and what he wrote in these verses is “this book”, meaning the Book of Revelations which he had just written.
There was no bible per se. But there were scriptures. All of the Old Testament. The Septuagint.
 
There was no bible per se. But there were scriptures. All of the Old Testament. The Septuagint.
The Bible is a product of technology. Not until the 4th Century could all the books (scrolls) of Scripture be bound into a single book (codex). The ability to include all Scripture into a single bound book has dramatically influenced the way we regard the Bible/
 
you know it occurs to me the legalism that many of you here are employing. Not to start any fires here but, I have several Bibles and my newest one has 3 & 4 Mac, Susanna, etc… it is listed as a Catholic Bible Douay-Rheims, if I am not mistaken. No I am not Orthodox, I am Catholic Latin Rite. Even if the Catholic Church doesn’t consider these books inspired, neither do they condemn them as far as I know… Some of you have even said it… profitable but not inspired… so why not read it? It may shed some historical light on the other books. This legalistic approach is for Sola Scriptura and is flawed. Many of you have hit it right on the head but aren’t focusing… the Bible is a COLLECTION of BOOKS not a single book!

So no where in any of the books does it say that followers of Christ are to follow only the BOOK… because they can’t…but many do say to follow the teachings of God, Christ, traditions, and some even state that following the example of the apostles is right. What about the prayers for the dead? Even Jesus mentioned these, so why would we look to the those who would say this is useless? Are they more authoritative than Christ? Also, no where does it say to use the Bible (as it didn’t exist as a collection of Books) as an exclusive instruction manual.

Another point is that when the Bible authors refer to scripture… they are talking about the old testament… funny thing is that recently (after the time of Christ) even the Jews took books out when they didn’t suit their agenda. BUT…look at some of the things Jesus said… he quoted some of the very books that the Jews took out of their scripture…what a testament that these were scripture indeed when Christ walked among us!!!

Why did Christ say the things he did from the cross? Many people don’t consider how much Christ was still teaching us by quoting from some of the prophets… ponder that a bit… he was confirming that he was Emmanuel to all, that he WAS the fulfillment of the Jewish scripture.
 
It doesn’t help my case?

What case is that?

Some versions did, but traditionally the Church did not use them.

“Apparently weren’t binding?”

The councils which debated the Canon, such as the Council of Carthage, were not Ecumenical councils. By definition, they were not binding.
Most catholics that I speak to argue along the lines of “The septuagint was used by Jesus and the apostles and the septuagint included the deutero canonical books therefore the deutero’s are inspired.” This is faulty reasoning at best.

Additionaly, most catholics I speak to argue that the earlier councils were in fact “infallible”, which is clearly not the case.
 
Most catholics that I speak to argue along the lines of “The septuagint was used by Jesus and the apostles and the septuagint included the deutero canonical books therefore the deutero’s are inspired.” This is faulty reasoning at best.
How is Sacred Tradition “faulty reasoning?” Since the Canon is based on Sacred Tradition, any other position is truly faulty reasoning.
Additionaly, most catholics I speak to argue that the earlier councils were in fact “infallible”, which is clearly not the case.
Then you must be speaking to some people who know very little about the Church.😛

Send them to us and we will rectify their errors for them.
 
I thought that deutero meant ‘doubt.’ There had been some ‘doubt’ as to their canonicity.

My bad. I’m wrong. It means second cannon.
Correct – a good example of the use of “deutero” is in the title of the OT book of Deureronomy. Read it and you see why it has that name – it is a recapitulation of the Laws of Moses (which were given in other books.)
 
Well, the Glossa Ordinaria rejected the canonicity of the so called deutero canonical books. The Gloss was the standard authoritative biblical commentary for the Western Church as a whole. It had immense authority. Just so you don’t think I am making this up we have the following from The New Catholic Encyclopedia:
Aw c’mon Calvin, have I ever accused you of making things up.

You mean Walafrid Strabo rejected the Canon. He wrote commentary. He had no authority to determine Canon whatsoever.

And remember, it’s commentary, it’s not Scripture, it’s Commentary.
 
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