Apocrypha? Pope added?

[NotWorthy]

It was my opinion…not so much a judgment. Tis not mine to “judge”.

You’re right, tis not ours to judge. Besides we’ll leave that duty to those that accuse us of idol worship, eh?

 

[Olivermax]

I think that is what Jesus means when He said “Do not judge”. I don’t think we are ever to speculate or condemn others to hell. (Although some protestant sects regularly state all Catholics will go to hell). Since Jesus is the only One to die on the cross to save us from sin, He is the only One who gets to decide.Actually, in His Mercy, I think at the end of our life, we are the ones who will choose where we go. Even at the last moment when He comes to us, we can still choose Jesus, and thus be saved from hell.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think that is what Jesus means when He said “Do not judge”. I don’t think we are ever to speculate or condemn others to hell. (Although some protestant sects regularly state all Catholics will go to hell). Since Jesus is the only One to die on the cross to save us from sin, He is the only One who gets to decide.Actually, in His Mercy, I think at the end of our life, we are the ones who will choose where we go. Even at the last moment when He comes to us, we can still choose Jesus, and thus be saved from hell.

Where is this taught?

 

[Olivermax]

This isn’t really “taught” anywhere, but I learned this from reading a book about Maria Simma called “Get Us Out of Here”.She was a devout Catholic who had the gift of helping the poor souls. The poor souls would come to her and ask her to suffer for them, or pray etc to shorten their time in Purgatory.They revealed many things that are still a mystery to those of us still on earth. It is really an inciteful book that I think every Catholic should read. You can get it from thecatholicgiftstore.com. I may have also gotten this from the messages from Heaven to Anne, a lay apostle. These books can also be gotten from thecatholicgiftstore.com. I was immediately struck by the Divine Authorship of these messages. I believe they will renew the Church.

By the way, I live in Alaska now, but grew up in Bridge City Tx, by Orange and Port Arthur.

 

[NotWorthy]

By the way, I live in Alaska now, but grew up in Bridge City Tx, by Orange and Port Arthur.

St. Henry’s? When?

 

[RobHom]

You’re right, tis not ours to judge. Besides we’ll leave that duty to those that accuse us of idol worship, eh?

Uh-huh, you betcha!!

 

[Calvinator]

Ok,… “it would seem logical and likely that Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli would not be in heaven…as they clearly violated the prohibition against changing, removing or adding to the bible as specified in Revelations 22: 18-19.”

It was my opinion…not so much a judgment. Tis not mine to “judge”.

Interestingly enough, most catholic apologists I’ve heard or read constantly harp on Rev 22 being applicable only to the book of Revelations and in this, I believe they are correct.

I guess you are relying upon private interpretation, huh?

 

[Calvinator]

They don’t match Hippo and Carthage, the two local councils that the Pope approved early in the 5th century? Where is that, or are you referring to some other councils? When and where?

If memory serves me, Hippo and Carthage state that 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras are canonical. They are referring to the Septuagint version of 1 and 2 Esdras. In this version 1 Esdras is the Apocryphal additions to Ezra while 2 Esdras is the Jewish verion of Ezra-Nehemiah from the Jewish canon.

The Council of Trent states that 1 Esdras is actually Ezra from the Jewish canon and 2 Esdras is Nehemiah from the Jewish canon. Trent omits the Septuagint version of 1 Esdras.

This was discussed in the debate between White and Michuta. I believe Michuta’s response was that Trent passed over the books in silence.

 

[Olivermax]

From 1959 until I left for college in 1980. If you went to St Henry’s, maybe you know the Caillouets. There were 9 of us kids.

 

[RobHom]

Interestingly enough, most catholic apologists I’ve heard or read constantly harp on Rev 22 being applicable only to the book of Revelations and in this, I believe they are correct.

Really? I’ve never heard it that way. I always understood it to apply to the entire bible. Why would anyone think it would apply only to one book of the bible? What would be the point? Many protestants I know interpret it that way as well.

I guess you are relying upon private interpretation, huh?

Maybe, maybe not. I am capable of reading and understanding what I read. Are you attempting to allude to the tired old saw that Catholics aren’t “allowed” to read or interpret the bible? Another protestant fallacy. The biggest part of the fallacy is that claim that Catholics were not supposed to read the bible… if that claim was correct, then why, oh why was I given a bible for my own 51 years ago, by my parish Priest and told to spend time reading it? The greatest difference between thee and me, is that you claim no final arbiter as to interpretations other than yourself, whereas I accept the Church as my final arbiter where there is a clash of thought. I hardly profess to be a “biblical scholar”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Really? I’ve never heard it that way. I always understood it to apply to the entire bible. Why would anyone think it would apply only to one book of the bible? What would be the point? Many protestants I know interpret it that way as well.

Maybe, maybe not. I am capable of reading and understanding what I read. Are you attempting to allude to the tired old saw that Catholics aren’t “allowed” to read or interpret the bible? Another protestant fallacy. The biggest part of the fallacy is that claim that Catholics were not supposed to read the bible… if that claim was correct, then why, oh why was I given a bible for my own 51 years ago, by my parish Priest and told to spend time reading it? The greatest difference between thee and me, is that you claim no final arbiter as to interpretations other than yourself, whereas I accept the Church as my final arbiter where there is a clash of thought. I hardly profess to be a “biblical scholar”.

If Catholics weren’t allowed to read the Bible, how did Guttenberg expect to make money printing Bibles three generations before Martin Luther?

 

[NotWorthy]

Really? I’ve never heard it that way. I always understood it to apply to the entire bible. Why would anyone think it would apply only to one book of the bible? What would be the point? Many protestants I know interpret it that way as well.

Many people falsely interpret it to mean the whole bible. John’s warning in Revelation should apply first and foremost to the book of Revelation.

 

[NotWorthy]

If memory serves me, Hippo and Carthage state that 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras are canonical. They are referring to the Septuagint version of 1 and 2 Esdras. In this version 1 Esdras is the Apocryphal additions to Ezra while 2 Esdras is the Jewish verion of Ezra-Nehemiah from the Jewish canon.

The Council of Trent states that 1 Esdras is actually Ezra from the Jewish canon and 2 Esdras is Nehemiah from the Jewish canon. Trent omits the Septuagint version of 1 Esdras.

This was discussed in the debate between White and Michuta. I believe Michuta’s response was that Trent passed over the books in silence.

This website claims that White was wrong in his claim and Michuta was wrong in his rationing.

Contrary to what Webster claims, the division of Ezra-Nehemiah into two separate books did not originate with Jerome’s Vulgate in the late 4th and early 5th centuries, but came much earlier. The respected early 3rd century biblical scholar Origen over one hundred years before Jerome “knew this material as two books in Greek”. The custom of dividing Ezra-Nehemiah seems to have come from Christian sources, not Jewish ones who continued to maintain the unity of these books up until the 15th century.

When exactly this custom arose among Christians is not known. Both Origen and Jerome list these books in such a manner as if this division of Ezra-Nehemiah in the Greek were a long-standing custom and not something that originated with either of them. Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical History quotes from Origen listing canonical books “as the Hebrews have handed them down”, where Origen writes “Esdras, first and second in one, Ezra, that is, ‘an assistant’”.

Jerome in his Preface to Samuel and Kings lists this book as “the eighth, Ezra, which itself is likewise divided amongst Greeks and Latins into two books”. Notice that Jerome does not say anything about dividing them himself or dropping 1 (3) Esdras from the Church’s canon. Origen also doesn’t say anything like this either.

You’ll find the site at: catholic-legate.com/
But you have to click on Scripture and then on the first article, Re-examining Esdras.

 

[Calvinator]

Really? I’ve never heard it that way. I always understood it to apply to the entire bible. Why would anyone think it would apply only to one book of the bible? What would be the point? Many protestants I know interpret it that way as well.

I think many non-Catholics interpret it that way to try to get a leg up on Catholics. Nevertheless, I think it only applies to the book of Revelations alone.

I don’t remember which book was written when, but Revelations wasn’t the last book written was it?

Maybe, maybe not. I am capable of reading and understanding what I read. Are you attempting to allude to the tired old saw that Catholics aren’t “allowed” to read or interpret the bible? Another protestant fallacy. The biggest part of the fallacy is that claim that Catholics were not supposed to read the bible… if that claim was correct, then why, oh why was I given a bible for my own 51 years ago, by my parish Priest and told to spend time reading it? The greatest difference between thee and me, is that you claim no final arbiter as to interpretations other than yourself, whereas I accept the Church as my final arbiter where there is a clash of thought. I hardly profess to be a “biblical scholar”.

My apologies, I got carried away. Often a Catholic will simply say “Oh, you poor protestants…all you have to rely on is your private or personal interpretation of a verse.”

 

[Calvinator]

This website claims that White was wrong in his claim and Michuta was wrong in his rationing.

You’ll find the site at: catholic-legate.com/
But you have to click on Scripture and then on the first article, Re-examining Esdras.

Thanks NotWorthy. I’ll take a look at that website and see what all they have to say about the matter.

 

[NotWorthy]

Thanks NotWorthy. I’ll take a look at that website and see what all they have to say about the matter.

BTW, thank you Calvinator for your (name removed by moderator)ut on these threads! Just because we don’t agree doesn’t make us enemies, eh?

 

[Calvinator]

BTW, thank you Calvinator for your (name removed by moderator)ut on these threads! Just because we don’t agree doesn’t make us enemies, eh?

Thanks for that NotWorthy. Sometimes I fear it is very easy for me to lose track of the fact that there is another human being on the other end of this post.

 

[RobHom]

I think many non-Catholics interpret it that way to try to get a leg up on Catholics. Nevertheless, I think it only applies to the book of Revelations alone.

I don’t remember which book was written when, but Revelations wasn’t the last book written was it?

To be honest…I think it could go either way… and as to the actual chronology of writing of Revelations… I’m not sure, guess I’ll have to see if I can find that out.

My apologies, I got carried away. Often a Catholic will simply say “Oh, you poor protestants…all you have to rely on is your private or personal interpretation of a verse.”

No problem… I’m probably guilty of anticipating certain questions…having had a number of discussions along these lines.

I have a question for you though. Hypothetically speaking: If two protestants, of the same denomination come up with different interpretations of the same exact scripture…who would be the arbiter? A preacher or minister?

 

[RobHom]

BTW, thank you Calvinator for your (name removed by moderator)ut on these threads! Just because we don’t agree doesn’t make us enemies, eh?

My sentiments exactly!! I also find these kinds of friendly exchanges to be “educational”, and I do learn from them:thumbsup:

 

[Calvinator]

My sentiments exactly!! I also find these kinds of friendly exchanges to be “educational”, and I do learn from them:thumbsup:

We would all benefit if we could keep it civil. I wonder how an atheist would view CAF’s? Granted, for religious discussion among competing groups, this is one of the more mild forums but we do have our moments.