Apologetics for Latin

[Liberian]

Lily,

If I may ask, does the use of Latin in medicine, optometry, and law extend beyond isolated words or phrases? The Latin Mass, of course, is a good bit more than phrases.

You are absolutely right, of course, about ancient and medieval history. But those are not the purview of the general public.

And you are also right about the switch to Latin being made because it was the “lingua franca” of the time (to coin a phrase).

• Liberian

“France has seen the writing on the wall, and it is in English.”

 

[Truthstalker]

All your arguments for Latin apply more strongly as arguments for Greek.

 

[LilyM]

Lily,

If I may ask, does the use of Latin in medicine, optometry, and law extend beyond isolated words or phrases? The Latin Mass, of course, is a good bit more than phrases.

You are absolutely right, of course, about ancient and medieval history. But those are not the purview of the general public.

And you are also right about the switch to Latin being made because it was the “lingua franca” of the time (to coin a phrase).

• Liberian

“France has seen the writing on the wall, and it is in English.”

Well, of course none of these areas (apart possibly from the history if studied at an advanced level) require nearly as much Latin as the Mass, I’m not suggesting they do.

Mind you, occasionally my father has been able to use Latin in medical notes (and even the occasional prescription) when he couldn’t think of the equivalent English term for something.

My main point simply was that there’s nothing particularly or inherently sacred about Latin.

 

[seremina]

**Not exactly related to the OP’s question, but some people don’t know this. If you want to become a Professor or a Professorin at a University, you’d be -required- to be fluent in Latin.

I learned this from a career guide that was awfully thick. It listed each career and what education it required and what your everyday duties would be and how much money it would rake in for you.

As for Church Latin, I’ve yet to find an online source for learning it. I can’t learn it using textkit.com because its not simple enough and uses non-Italianised pronunciation.
**

 

[mosher]

What makes Hebrew sacred to the Jews or Arabic sacred to the Muslims? Even among the Eastern Catholics there is a sense of Sacred Language. Some rites must use Aramaic for the consecration and other consider Old Slavonic their “sacred language” in some it is Greek etc. Why not in the Latin west can we not consider Latin our Sacred Language as it is the language of our Church and our Liturgy. Or have we become too modern to understand the concept of a Sacred Language? Is that disposition an error?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

*How would you explain/defend the use of a “dead” language (Latin) to worship God to a Protestant?
*
I wouldn’t defend it. The best thing the Church has done in the last century was to let the people in on the language of the Mass.

Does anyone think that the Last Supper was celebrated in Latin or in the vernacular?

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

*How would you explain/defend the use of a “dead” language (Latin) to worship God to a Protestant?
*
I wouldn’t defend it. The best thing the Church has done in the last century was to let the people in on the language of the Mass.

Does anyone think that the Last Supper was celebrated in Latin or in the vernacular?

“Blessed art thou Lord God of all creation, through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which Earth has given …”

What Jesus would have said was
Baruch ata adonai Elyhenu melech ha-olam, Hamotzi lehem min ha-aritz"
Blessed art thou O Lord our God, king of the Universe, who brings forth bread from the Earth.

Almost certainly He would have used this Hebrew blessing, as Jews had done since time immemorial.

 

[mikew262]

But this is what I still don’t get: You then have the rather odd scene of an English speaking priest (for example) speaking to God (who understands all languages, which would include English) in a language not native to him or to the English speaking congregation in front of whom and on behalf of whom he is addressing God, as they follow along in a text provided for them in an English translation. It rather defies logic, doesn’t it? As for precision, won’t God get it PRECISELY anyway? The people won’t, since the translation is (by definition) imprecise.

I’m not saying that Latin isn’t important, that would be like saying that Hebrew and Greek aren’t important. They patently are. Latin has been of prime importance in the history of the Church and it is still the Church’s official language. I can see its liturgical usefullness in large international gatherings. I don’t see, in balance, that Latin has a day-in, day-out benefit that outweighs people being able to understand the Mass in the langauge in which they think.

You nailed it. For the last 40 yrs we used the “native” language of the people attending the mass. Why regress? I predict we’d lose alot of attendees if the Church ever completely reverted to the Latin Mass. IMO, there is nothing wrong with having 1 or 2 churches in a diocese host a latin mass for folks who want it, but nothing more.

 

[mikew262]

Does anyone think that the Last Supper was celebrated in Latin or in the vernacular?*
Good and valid point!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You nailed it. For the last 40 yrs we used the “native” language of the people attending the mass. Why regress? I predict we’d lose alot of attendees if the Church ever completely reverted to the Latin Mass. IMO, there is nothing wrong with having 1 or 2 churches in a diocese host a latin mass for folks who want it, but nothing more.

I don’t even think there’s anything wrong with having every parish have a Latin Mass on Sundays. I don’t think that the Pope is going to insist that every Mass, even the Pauline, be in Latin, though.

 

[mikew262]

I don’t even think there’s anything wrong with having every parish have a Latin Mass on Sundays. I don’t think that the Pope is going to insist that every Mass, even the Pauline, be in Latin, though.

I agree.

 

[mosher]

You nailed it. For the last 40 yrs we used the “native” language of the people attending the mass. Why regress? I predict we’d lose alot of attendees if the Church ever completely reverted to the Latin Mass. IMO, there is nothing wrong with having 1 or 2 churches in a diocese host a latin mass for folks who want it, but nothing more.

I don’t even think there’s anything wrong with having every parish have a Latin Mass on Sundays. I don’t think that the Pope is going to insist that every Mass, even the Pauline, be in Latin, though.

I don’t think that we are here speaking of the 62 Missale Romanum but rather the current Third Typical Edition of the Missale Romanum. At the seminary we would have mass at least once a month in Latin however we would often have the responses in Latin at a Mass in English. It would be nice if every parish would begin to follow at the very least this basic model.

 

[tee_eff_em]

How would you explain/defend the use of a “dead” language (Latin) to worship God to a Protestant?

I would imagine this was a common question for pre-Vatican II Catholics.

WHY SEMINARIANS NEED TO LEARN LATIN
Apologia pro Munere Suo (‘A Defense of His Work’)

November 2006 By Daniel B. Gallagher

The Rev. Daniel B. Gallagher is Assistant Professor of Theology and Director of Graduate Seminarians at Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit, Michigan.

http://www.newoxfordreview.org/leaders/1106-gallagher.jpgIt never fails. The moment I loosen my Roman collar and settle in for a long flight, a fellow passenger pops the question: “So, Father, what do *you *do?” Running down the list of my ministerial responsibilities, this one intrigues them the most: “I teach Latin in the seminary.”

“Really? Priests still have to *know *that? Didn’t the Church get rid of Latin after Vatican II? What do seminarians have to know a dead language for?”

Yes, yes, no, and I would *never *bother teaching *anyone *a dead language.

Full preview Requires subscription to read the full article, though I’m tempted to shell out the buck and a half for the single article

tee

 

[Frankk]

I do find it puzzling that people ascribe a sort of sacredness to Latin. The reason it is used by the Church is nothing other than the fact it was the language of the Roman Empire. It was the language of commerce, law, literature, the army and the administration of western Europe. In other words, it was the vernacular language of its time. So the Mass was said in a language that people could understand. This is no longer the case.

Certainly, the first Mass, the Last Supper, would have been said in Hebrew and Aramaic. The first seven General Councils were conducted using Greek, not Latin. The language of the masses of Saint Paul was Greek. The New Testament was written in Koine Greek.

In fact I think it was 300 years before Latin became the language of the Mass.

I also find the ‘excuses’ for learning Latin implausible. It may help to develop logical thought processes, but so does Maths and Physics. Why learn Latin to help you learn other languages? Why not just learn a modern language instead? If learning an inflected language helps you learn other languages why not learn Spanish? What value is there in Latin helping people to understand English grammar? Not least because English grammar isn’t even taught in schools any more.

It may be that pupils who learn Latin score higher in other subjects than pupils who don’t, but this could be because they are inherently more intelligent anyway and the study of Latin, in itself, is irrelevant to the results.

If this is an argument, then it could equally be used to promote the study of Classical Greek. After all, when you consider the sheer wealth of Greek material in philosophy, mathematics, literature, culture and so on the Romans couldn’t hold a candle to them. They even knicked their gods. Well, I suppose they were better at finding ever crueller ways of killing people in the Coliseum but that’s about it.

 

[seremina]

Latin is not sacred, itself. No language is. But let me tell you my experience with the Latin Mass. It feels more sacred, its more reverent, and my soul and heart just melt in rapturous joy.

I have no idea why the English Mass doesn’t do this for me, but it just doesn’t. I still fully participate and fully appreciate the Mass and I know all of its meaning and how precious it is, and I believe in the Real Presence, but I just don’t feel that sacredness nor rapture. It doesn’t help that its a hassle to flip through the missal to figure out which option is being prayed or why the reading isn’t the one stated in the missal.

Back when I attended Mass physically on Sundays (I couldn’t go daily back then like I watch Mass daily now on EWTN), this problem was going on even then and an additional problem… if it was a signed Mass, not everything was signed.

At least with Latin, I don’t have to worry about the Priest making up lines nor improvising. Believe me, some people say pretty wacky things when they have free license to use English. I understand that English is the new international language, but its too easy to abuse it. So I think Latin should remain for the common parts of Mass, as the Franciscan Mass on EWTN does.

 

[Frankk]

Latin is not sacred, itself. No language is. But let me tell you my experience with the Latin Mass. It feels more sacred, its more reverent, and my soul and heart just melt in rapturous joy.

The reverence felt is often quoted. However, interestingly [or not?!] the Liturgy of the Latin Mass requires the laity to say only one word.

I’ll leave you to guess what it is and when it must be said.

I’m not quite sure how this strict interpretation of the Liturgy of the Mass adds to reverence in any way.

 

[seremina]

The reverence felt is often quoted. However, interestingly [or not?!] the Liturgy of the Latin Mass requires the laity to say only one word.

I’ll leave you to guess what it is and when it must be said.

I’m not quite sure how this strict interpretation of the Liturgy of the Mass adds to reverence in any way.

So? How much the laity get to say is not relevant. The Mass is for our Lord. It is not an entertainment nor “I want” venue.

The strict interpretation removes the ability to abuse the liturgy, at least with the words. When you ask a Priest about why he’s more reverent during a Latin Mass than he was when he was doing the English Mass, he’ll tell you the Latin made him stop… think… and realise the raw truth about the Mass and our Lord. Have you ever repeated anything in English and found it doesn’t make you think? If you have to repeat something in a different language, it makes you think because of the translation in your head or the other side of the missal you read is being read.

I know this “phenomena” is not easily understood, but it shows the importance of language being used for the universality and sacredness of religion. If you go/watch a Latin Mass (easy to do on EWTN, they save their Latin Masses) and then watch an English Mass at thedailymass.com/mass/mass.asp

you will find a huge difference in reverence levels. I’m not trying to prove anything, but I am hoping you might notice what I’m talking about. I don’t know of any Catholic who’s attended/seen the Latin Mass and hadn’t noticed this. Generally, they want to attend it again, over and over.

 

[emseguin]

Latin is the Universal Language of the Church, became lost after Vatican II.
You can go anywhere in the world and Latin would allow for the Mass to be understood by all, univerally, everywhere! How wonderful!

 

[justin_sp]

So? How much the laity get to say is not relevant. The Mass is for our Lord. It is not an entertainment nor “I want” venue.

The strict interpretation removes the ability to abuse the liturgy, at least with the words. When you ask a Priest about why he’s more reverent during a Latin Mass than he was when he was doing the English Mass, he’ll tell you the Latin made him stop… think… and realise the raw truth about the Mass and our Lord. Have you ever repeated anything in English and found it doesn’t make you think? If you have to repeat something in a different language, it makes you think because of the translation in your head or the other side of the missal you read is being read.

I know this “phenomena” is not easily understood, but it shows the importance of language being used for the universality and sacredness of religion. If you go/watch a Latin Mass (easy to do on EWTN, they save their Latin Masses) and then watch an English Mass at thedailymass.com/mass/mass.asp
I agree 100%!! The priest sets aside his own personality and becomes totally absorbed into Christ.I use to attend the new Mass but now the latin Mass. The difference is incredible.I have found in my own experience that sometimes it is better to not follow the text in Mass,and just let the your heart be led by the Lord.Worship is not in the understanding of the texts,but in lifting your heart to God.Did not our wonderful Lady at the foot of the cross worship Him as She should have.Did She have to respond to prayers to do this.How about St. John. The centurion was there also.Though worshipping our Lord in different ways,they were united to Him by His Supreme Offering.So when the priest offers our Lord in a unbloody manner in a different language whether we understand it or not,we are truly “participating”.

 

[justin_sp]

Sorry Seremina. I didn’t mean to combine our threads. I’m new to this thread writing stuff.