Apologetics:hard And Soft Approach

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Let me share a bit from my perspective. I was brought in contact with the teachings of the Catholic Church by a girl who never tried to convert me, just defended her position with Scripture and history and left it at that. From a fundamentalist background, that is what I needed to hear, not a diatribe on my eternal destiny. Understand that I was earnestly living a life of devotion to God, trying to honor Him through becoming more like Him. If I had come in contact with a Catholic who had taken the tack that marineboy is suggesting, I would never have even considered the Church as a viable option.

IMHO, the best brand of evangelism is the “be all things to all people” approach that St. Paul used. When he was in Athens, he quoted Epimenides in his oration to open the minds of the Athenians throught the use of their own culture. Different people need different approaches, whether it is the “repent and be baptized” of John the Baptist, or the call to fullness of faith in the Catholic Church, it takes personal involvement and genuine caring in order to truly impact the life of the person you are trying to influence.
 
JKIRK YOU SIR ARE JUST SO WRONG—THE FEENEY POSITION IS THAT WATER BAPTISM IS ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY AND SO IS EXPLICIT FAITH—the" other stuff "you talk about is just nonsense—tell me specifically what i am saying that is feeneyite—the point that water baptism is absolutley necessary is the feenyite position—it is that what distinguishes it—so you know you are wrong --you just want to try to argue a point to save face—for those of you who dont like my approach in this thread i can understand that–BUT GUEES WHAT I DONT ALWAYS TAKE THIS ATTITUDE WHEN I AM TALKING TO PROTESTANTS-----MY POINT IS THAT YOU CATHOLICS NEED TO REALIZE THAT PROTESTANTS ARE IN DANGER OF GOING TO HELL FOR NOT ENTERIN THE CHURCH- DRILL THAT INTO UR HEADS!!!
 
What marineboy is saying needs to be said… but he needs to tone down on the caps.
 
marineboy said:
-----MY POINT IS THAT YOU CATHOLICS NEED TO REALIZE THAT PROTESTANTS ARE IN DANGER OF GOING TO HELL FOR NOT ENTERIN THE CHURCH- DRILL THAT INTO UR HEADS!!!
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That’s not accurate. Jesus Christ is the way to salvation-- not the Church. The Church is the path that we chose-- or the path that God or the Holy Spirit chose for us. That is obviously not the path for all.

Jesus Christ can save anyone who is walking in any path.
Do you doubt this ability of God?

If a Protestant goes to hell, it is because they don’t live up to the truth that they have been graced with. They cannot be judged and condemned by the truth which we are given (that they are unaware of).

In this light-- it is probably safe to say that we are more likely to go to hell than they are. Why? Because more is asked of those who receive much. (paraphrase?)
 
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marineboy:
Jkirk You Are Dishonest I Just Said In My Last Post That I Reject That Formal Membership Is Absolutley Required—why Dont You Get A Life And Stop Maming Up Stuff-----i Think The Moderators Should Issue You A Conduct Warnig For Obviously Lying—at Least When I Deabte On Here I Try To Represent The Other Person’s Position Honestly----you Arent Doing That–further Proff That You Are Not On God’s Side----you Need To Repent–“by Their Fruits You Shall Know Them”
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I don’t mean to be rude, just to ask you to please not capitalize each letter of a word in a sentence as you did in the quote above, and to please not use all caps which is the equivalent of shouting. Both are next to impossible to read, and many will just gloss over reading your posts, and your points will not be read.

Having said that, I have to tell you that shouting to my athiest relative that he is going to hell is not going to draw him closer to God. Even when I try the “soft” approach he is defensive and closed-minded. If I push too hard, the discussion is ended. This results in the opposite effect I want.

I myself was brought to faith, not by someone threatening me with hell, or even talking to me about faith. I was led by others’ Christian example - wondering what it was they had found that I had not, admiring the special gift they had that I did not. The people who for years drove me away from even looking into faith were the Christians who acted all koo-koo about me going to hell.
 
I have also learned the hard way, that what I think people may need to hear usually doesn’t jive with what the Holy Spirit knows they need to hear. And if I’m not sure-- then I try to be quiet. I try hard, really.
 
Chris W:
As I consider this “hard approach” method you are recommending, it would be very helpful to me if you could describe for us a few of your personal conversion success stories. I’m not asking for names, but perhaps you could describe what a few of the people were like prior to you threatening them with eternal damnation, and then the conversion that resulted from that discussion.
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Twice you have now asked this question. Tiwce you have been ignored. I am sorry Chris, but arguing and jockeying for position is more self-indugent. God forbid that we expect results.

If you want results and tesitmonies, I will throw a few out.

I have never taken a hard-line approach with my two teenagers. They both live with their mother 80 miles away from me, who desires them to be good Baptist and took her Baptist church locally. I see them as often as I can and consistenly have discussed the differences in faith, while acknowledging the truth they received (and enjoyed) in their mother’s church. They are now intimately familiar with the works and sermons of Fr. Corapi., Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, Karl Keating and Roz Moss.

Thanks Catholic Answers! I can never forget or repay what you have done for both me and my family.

My beautiful 17 year old daughter decide, on her own volition, to join the church last year and entered on Holy Saturday. This past Holy Saturday, it was my son, 15 years old, and now a fire-ball for the Catholic faith that was received into the Catholic Church.

This Faith is real.
The logic is clear.
The Holy Spirit is powerful.

No one, not marineboy or anyone else, will ever convince me, that there is a better way of evangelization than prayer, holiness and faith.

Now, wher is that kleenex. I apologize for any typos. This is my first time to put this down.
 
It seems to me that to tell someone who doesn’t already believe they run the risk of going to hell (say an atheist, or perhaps a OSAS Protestant), that they need to change or they will go to hell, is as pointless as telling someone who doesn’t believe in aliens that they are at risk of being abducted by aliens.

Okay maybe thats not a great analogy but hopefully you understand my point: Fear can in fact be a motivator and a proper fear of God is a good thing, in my opinion. But fear is only a motivator to someone who already knows they have reason to fear. Therefore, a person who doesn’t already believe they are at risk of going to hell, will not be motivated by someone else telling them they are headed there.

So, as I consider Marineboy’s suggestion, that threatening hell should be part of an apologist’s technique, I ask the question, “why should I do that?” What are the benefits? Knowlege of the risk of Hell is a good motivator for the apologist, out of love and concern for the other person, and causing a sense of necessity in spreading the truth of the Gospels, but I do not see the benefit, nor has any been presented in this thread thus far, to the person being evangelized.

This brings me to a quote from Marineboy:
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marineboy:
…“by Their Fruits You Shall Know Them”
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I have asked for personal experiences that demonstrate positive results results of the “hard approach” method but have seen none thus far. In fact the only fruits I have seen yet from the “hard approach” suggestion has been animosity, argument, and insults between Catholic brethren. How then shall I judge your suggestion, Marineboy?
 
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pnewton:
Twice you have now asked this question. Tiwce you have been ignored. I am sorry Chris, but arguing and jockeying for position is more self-indugent. God forbid that we expect results.

If you want results and tesitmonies, I will throw a few out.

I have never taken a hard-line approach with my two teenagers. They both live with their mother 80 miles away from me, who desires them to be good Baptist and took her Baptist church locally. I see them as often as I can and consistenly have discussed the differences in faith, while acknowledging the truth they received (and enjoyed) in their mother’s church. They are now intimately familiar with the works and sermons of Fr. Corapi., Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, Karl Keating and Roz Moss.

Thanks Catholic Answers! I can never forget or repay what you have done for both me and my family.

My beautiful 17 year old daughter decide, on her own volition, to join the church last year and entered on Holy Saturday. This past Holy Saturday, it was my son, 15 years old, and now a fire-ball for the Catholic faith that was received into the Catholic Church.

This Faith is real.
The logic is clear.
The Holy Spirit is powerful.

No one, not marineboy or anyone else, will ever convince me, that there is a better way of evangelization than prayer, holiness and faith.

Now, wher is that kleenex. I apologize for any typos. This is my first time to put this down.
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Thanks be to God:clapping: :dancing: :clapping: That is wonderful:D I am so happy for you and your children:clapping:
 
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pnewton:
If you want results and tesitmonies, I will throw a few out.

…I have never taken a hard-line approach with my two teenagers… and consistenly have discussed the differences in faith, while acknowledging the truth they received (and enjoyed) in their mother’s church. They are now intimately familiar with the works and sermons of Fr. Corapi., Scott Hahn, Jimmy Akin, Karl Keating and Roz Moss.
…My beautiful 17 year old daughter decide, on her own volition, to join the church last year and entered on Holy Saturday. This past Holy Saturday, it was my son, 15 years old, and now a fire-ball for the Catholic faith that was received into the Catholic Church.

No one, not marineboy or anyone else, will ever convince me, that there is a better way of evangelization than prayer, holiness and faith.
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Thanks pnewton. A powerful tesimony for what I call “loving them into the Church”. Results are the proof of the method. Tonight I thank God for blessing you and you family.

Peace,
Chris W
 
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marineboy:
JKIRK YOU SIR ARE JUST SO WRONG—THE FEENEY POSITION IS THAT WATER BAPTISM IS ABSOLUTLEY NECESSARY AND SO IS EXPLICIT FAITH—the" other stuff "you talk about is just nonsense—tell me specifically what i am saying that is feeneyite—the point that water baptism is absolutley necessary is the feenyite position—it is that what distinguishes it—so you know you are wrong --you just want to try to argue a point to save face—for those of you who dont like my approach in this thread i can understand that–BUT GUEES WHAT I DONT ALWAYS TAKE THIS ATTITUDE WHEN I AM TALKING TO PROTESTANTS-----MY POINT IS THAT YOU CATHOLICS NEED TO REALIZE THAT PROTESTANTS ARE IN DANGER OF GOING TO HELL FOR NOT ENTERIN THE CHURCH- DRILL THAT INTO UR HEADS!!!
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Lest I be considered a liar, here’s a link to Father Feeney’s disciples:
catholicism.org/TTAS/chapter_9p.htm

And a quote from the link:

“When the popes defined the dogma, Outside the Church there is No Salvation, they clearly meant the visible, incarnational Church; the Church which the whole world can see and hear and know. This is “the Church” we mean. This is the visible “city on a hill” which Christ founded. Outside the walls of this City, there is no salvation possible whatsoever!”

Finally, we’re all in danger of going to hell, each and every one of us, if we don’t follow Christ. I do not now, nor have I ever denied this.
 
Not quite sure what I got out of this one. Will have to digest it for awhile. Thanks.
 
YES WE ARE ALL IN GOING TO HELL–TRUE-- but for diffeent reasons–as Catholics who profess the one true faith–we are not in danger of going to hel for rejecting God’s truth—we may go to hell for “sins of the flesh”–but non catholics are in dnger of going to hell for “sins of the spirit” (for rejecting God’s truth) and sins of the flesh—you make a mistake in putting them on the same level—
 
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JKirkLVNV:
For pity’s sake, please, please, learn to type! Look, Feeny’s position encompassed MORE than a rigid insistence on water baptism and explicit faith!!! You are expressing the REST of it! I’m NOT being dishonest. I’m NOT “Maming” anything up! You are not representing my “position” honestly, because all I’ve done is quote the Catechsim! I think you are very presumptuous to say that I’m not on “God’s side.” You are misrepresenting the teachings of the Church.
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Jkirklvnv,

After reading some of your posts I have arrived at the thought that you possibly need to go sit in the “Time-Out” Corner. Sit and get your thoughts logically in order. It may be that emotion is clouding the meaning of your posts. Time-Outs are a good thing from time to time.

When you read marineboy realise that he is telling the truth. The TRUTH is hard for some to swallow. But we need a marineboy just like Jesus needed John the Baptist.Take care & have a good day.
 
Exporter said:
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Jkirklvnv,

After reading some of your posts I have arrived at the thought that you possibly need to go sit in the “Time-Out” Corner. Sit and get your thoughts logically in order. It may be that emotion is clouding the meaning of your posts. Time-Outs are a good thing from time to time.

When you read marineboy realise that he is telling the truth. The TRUTH is hard for some to swallow. But we need a marineboy just like Jesus needed John the Baptist.Take care & have a good day.
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=55013
 
Exporter said:
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Jkirklvnv,

After reading some of your posts I have arrived at the thought that you possibly need to go sit in the “Time-Out” Corner. Sit and get your thoughts logically in order. It may be that emotion is clouding the meaning of your posts. Time-Outs are a good thing from time to time.

When you read marineboy realise that he is telling the truth. The TRUTH is hard for some to swallow. But we need a marineboy just like Jesus needed John the Baptist.Take care & have a good day.
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No, marineboy has zeal but is misguided and is not telling the truth.

As a former protestant I can see why JKIRKLNV may be getting rattled. Marineboy’s posts constantly fly in the face of Church teaching at worst and at best are antagonistic to all, protestant or Catholic.
 
JKIRK Feeney said that you must be water Baptized (formal membership) and explicit faith to be saved–he rejected Baptsm of desire—I affirm Baptism of desire—what i have said is that formal mebership in the Church is normatively necessary–feeney said it is absolutley necssary-BIG DIFFERENCE–MY POINT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WE SHOULD TREAT APLOGETICS AS A MATER THAT CONCERNS THE SALVATION OF SOULS-QUESTION FOR YOU–HAVE you heard the debate, in the early 90’s, between Pat madrid (vp of catholic answers at the time) and James white on sola scrptura–Pat, at the end of the debate, challenges the protestantsin the audience–and says tha “you run the isk of going to hell for not enterigthe catholic chuch.” go to white’s web site and ge the transcript and scroll down to the end–yu will see it—that is my point exactly----if more oFus would take thaT approach–ill shut up–promise!!!
 
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MARINEBOY1:
JKIRK Feeney said that you must be water Baptized (formal membership) and explicit faith to be saved–he rejected Baptsm of desire—I affirm Baptism of desire—what i have said is that formal mebership in the Church is normatively necessary–feeney said it is absolutley necssary-BIG DIFFERENCE–MY POINT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WE SHOULD TREAT APLOGETICS AS A MATER THAT CONCERNS THE SALVATION OF SOULS-QUESTION FOR YOU–HAVE you heard the debate, in the early 90’s, between Pat madrid (vp of catholic answers at the time) and James white on sola scrptura–Pat, at the end of the debate, challenges the protestantsin the audience–and says tha “you run the isk of going to hell for not enterigthe catholic chuch.” go to white’s web site and ge the transcript and scroll down to the end–yu will see it—that is my point exactly----if more oFus would take thaT approach–ill shut up–promise!!!
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If they enter the Church and have not been given the grace to know and understand that this IS the CHURCH Jesus started,but did it because of a threat what good is that:confused: Think of the Eucharist and someone who was threatened into the Church and commits a sacralige everytime they take communion:nope:
 
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MARINEBOY1:
JKIRK Feeney said that you must be water Baptized (formal membership) and explicit faith to be saved–he rejected Baptsm of desire—I affirm Baptism of desire—what i have said is that formal mebership in the Church is normatively necessary–feeney said it is absolutley necssary-BIG DIFFERENCE–MY POINT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WE SHOULD TREAT APLOGETICS AS A MATER THAT CONCERNS THE SALVATION OF SOULS-QUESTION FOR YOU–HAVE you heard the debate, in the early 90’s, between Pat madrid (vp of catholic answers at the time) and James white on sola scrptura–Pat, at the end of the debate, challenges the protestantsin the audience–and says tha “you run the isk of going to hell for not enterigthe catholic chuch.” go to white’s web site and ge the transcript and scroll down to the end–yu will see it—that is my point exactly----if more oFus would take thaT approach–ill shut up–promise!!!
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redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/necromancer.htm

Well, you are a one issue poster:rolleyes:

For the love of God, please stop shouting! :eek:

redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/allcaps.htm
 
I don’t think it is ever neccessary to tell a Protestant they are going to hell if they don’t become Catholic. My hard approach is just laying Catholic teaching out there and being bold about Catholicism being the fullness of the truth.

Blessings
 
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