Apologetics help, please! Mary's "Omnipotence'

[San_Patricio]

Has the Catholic Church infallibly interpreted every verse in the Bible? If they have i would like to see this book.

No, actually there is a great deal that the Church leaves up to personal interpretation.

When you read the Bible as a Catholic how do you know you have the correct interpretation of a verse or passage?

I don’t if it’s not something the Church has defined, but each verse must be taken in context with the rest of Scripture and Tradition, as well as prayer.

 

[justasking4]

God chose that Christ would come to the world through Mary, and in the same way He continues to come to us through her.

If this is true, why is it not taught in the Scripture? There is not one hint of this kind of thing there. In fact i suspect this was unknown for centuries.

On the Cross He did give us to her and her to us.

Again, look at this passage. Jesus is entrusting the care of His mother to John. John is never referrred to in the NT as being the church. Nor do any of the other writers of scripture refer to him in this way.

The Church knows things not explicitly in Scripture becuse it is the Church that gave us Scripture.
How does this follow? Just because God used the catholic church to discover the canon, does autmatically mean that it has the correct view of each verse-passage of scripture.

It can, however, be found IMPLICT in Scripture.

If you can’t find clear support for a doctrine, then what you are left with is speculation. Speculation is not a foundation in which to build a doctrine on. Its like building on sand.

Jesus didn’t send the Holy Spirit to guide the Bible,

Actually He did. In the OT the Spirit guided the writers of scripture. In the NT, Jesus promised in John 14:26 that the HS would bring “remembrance” of all He said. This would evenually lead to the writing down what they heard.

He sent Him to guide the Church.

What are the signs that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church?

 

[justasking4]

No, actually there is a great deal that the Church leaves up to personal interpretation.

It seems to me then you have no advantage over a protestant. You to are left to your own “private interpretation” as everyone in the catholic church is, including the pope etc. If the catholic church has never infallibly defined the meaning of the verses in scripture, then you have no way of knowing a particular interpretation is correct or not.

I don’t if it’s not something the Church has defined, but each verse must be taken in context with the rest of Scripture and Tradition, as well as prayer.

How would you know if a particular verse of scripture is in the right context with a tradition?

 

[San_Patricio]

What are the signs that the Holy Spirit is guiding the church?

Catholic theology, although it has deepend and expanded, has not changed in 2000 years.

Protestant theology changes every 5 minutes and there are many thousands of Protestant churches that have sprung up in less than 500 years.

Which do you think is more likely guided by the Holy Spirit?

Jesus didn’t say “I will build my 30,000 denominations”.

Jesus did say that the Holy Spirit would be with His Church til the end of time. If He used the Catholic Church to give the Bible to the world, but it wasn’t His Church, how does that make sense?

 

[San_Patricio]

How would you know if a particular verse of scripture is in the right context with a tradition?

I’m sorry, I don’t think I understand your question.

As I said, the Church hasn’t defined all of Scripture infallibly. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t defined any.

We have 2000 years of writing and interpretation to go on. We have the Catechism. We have the writings of the early Fathers. I fail to see how that leaves us in the same position as Protestants. Which Protestants?

Just because every lline of Scripture hasn’t been ruled on infallibly by the Church does not by any means mean that we are left on our own to figure out our own individual interpretation.

 

[Northwind]

God chose that Christ would come to the world through Mary, and in the same way He continues to come to us through her.

I would have to defer to scripture here. We are drawn to Jesus by the Father, not Mary.

John 6:44

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[San_Patricio]

I would have to defer to scripture here. We are drawn to Jesus by the Father, not Mary.

John 6:44

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

So… you deny that Christ came through Mary?

 

[San_Patricio]

I would have to defer to scripture here. We are drawn to Jesus by the Father, not Mary.

John 6:44

44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

It seems you may be taking that a bit out of context. Jesus is speaking to the Jews here and they are saying “do we not know his mother and father? How can he say he came down from Heaven?”
Of course we believe that we can have faith only by God’s grace, without that we are nothing, but don’t you think it’s a bit extreme to say that God doesn’t use other agents (like Mary) to draw us to Him?

 

[noma]

What?

 

[justasking4]

Catholic theology, although it has deepend and expanded, has not changed in 2000 years.

I don’t how you can say this? For example, there is no mention of Mary being the queen of heaven for centuries. The same goes for the priesthood. Your church forbids married catholic men from being priests. This was not always the case. The rosary is another example. All of these doctrines and practices were unknown to the NT church.

Protestant theology changes every 5 minutes and there are many thousands of Protestant churches that have sprung up in less than 500 years.
Have you ever compared 5-10 beliefs what 10 different protestant churches teach about Christ? If so, were there 10 different answers to the doctrine of Christ being God in the flesh for example?

Which do you think is more likely guided by the Holy Spirit?

Jesus didn’t say “I will build my 30,000 denominations”.
That is correct. However if you look at the passage He doesn’t lay out in great detail how He would do this.
Has your church infallibly defined Matt 16:18?

Jesus did say that the Holy Spirit would be with His Church til the end of time. If He used the Catholic Church to give the Bible to the world, but it wasn’t His Church, how does that make sense?

Two different issues here. One has to do with “who did God use to define the NT canon” and the other has to do with; "has the Holy Spirit always guided the catholic church?

 

[San_Patricio]

Two different issues here. One has to do with “who did God use to define the NT canon” and the other has to do with; "has the Holy Spirit always guided the catholic church?

Mt 16:18- Peter, the first Pope. The rock Christ built His Church on.

God used the Catholic Church to define the canon of Scripture, and if the Holy Spirit hasn’t always “guided the Catholic Church” then I guess Jesus lied, for He said He would guide His Church, and it was the only one there. Both issues have the same answer: The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the church that Jesus founded, sent the Holy Spirit to guide, gave authority to canonize scripture, and promised would stand til the end of time.

 

[justasking4]

I’m sorry, I don’t think I understand your question.

Catholics claim to be guided by tradition in their understanding of scripture. If that is true, then you must know specifically what the specific tradition is and that your understanding of scripture actually lines up with that particular scripture. For example, it is claimed by your church that Mary is to be prayed to. Where is this tradition in the first 500 years of the church that shows this particular tradition?

As I said, the Church hasn’t defined all of Scripture infallibly. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t defined any.
Would you happen to know which ones have and how many have?

We have 2000 years of writing and interpretation to go on. We have the Catechism. We have the writings of the early Fathers. I fail to see how that leaves us in the same position as Protestants. Do all the writings and interpretations for the past 2000 years agree on all issues and doctrines?
Do all the early agree for example that Mary was without sin?

Which Protestants?
Lets say evangelicals or baptists.

Just because every lline of Scripture hasn’t been ruled on infallibly by the Church does not by any means mean that we are left on our own to figure out our own individual interpretation.

If I were to read 10 catholic commentaries on a particular verse or passage of scripture, would i find them all in absolute agreement?

Without an infallible interpretation of each verse of the Bible, how do you know your interpretation is the right one and not someone else’?

 

[justasking4]

It seems you may be taking that a bit out of context. Jesus is speaking to the Jews here and they are saying “do we not know his mother and father? How can he say he came down from Heaven?”
Of course we believe that we can have faith only by God’s grace, without that we are nothing, but don’t you think it’s a bit extreme to say that God doesn’t use other agents (like Mary) to draw us to Him?

I suppose God could use other “agents” but the question is: did He and what is the evidence for it?

 

[justasking4]

Mt 16:18- Peter, the first Pope. The rock Christ built His Church on.

God used the Catholic Church to define the canon of Scripture, and if the Holy Spirit hasn’t always “guided the Catholic Church” then I guess Jesus lied, for He said He would guide His Church, and it was the only one there. Both issues have the same answer: The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the church that Jesus founded, sent the Holy Spirit to guide, gave authority to canonize scripture, and promised would stand til the end of time.

Have you read much of catholic church history? Are you aware that there was a time when there were 2-3 popes? Since this is the case, was the HS guiding your church?

Or we can look at the inquisition. Was the HS guiding your church then?

Or take Joan of Arc. She was condemned as a heretic and later after she was put to death declared a saint?

Would you want to claim that the HS was guiding your church when it made these decisions?

 

[San_Patricio]

If I were to read 10 catholic commentaries on a particular verse or passage of scripture, would i find them all in absolute agreement?

Without an infallible interpretation of each verse of the Bible, how do you know your interpretation is the right one and not someone else’?

No, you would not be guaranteed to find them all in agreement, because all people have free will and are fallible. If you read 10 commentaries that were correctly interpreted they would most likely be in agreement.
No one has an “infallible interpretation of each verse of the Bible”. The Church is here to offer her wisdom and guidance in
interpreting God’s written and unwritten word.
Where do you see in Scripture that we are guaranteed infallible knowledge on every verse?
Evangelicals and Baptists don’t even agree. Which Evangelicals and which Baptists?

 

[San_Patricio]

Have you read much of catholic church history? Are you aware that there was a time when there were 2-3 popes? Since this is the case, was the HS guiding your church?

Or we can look at the inquisition. Was the HS guiding your church then?

Or take Joan of Arc. She was condemned as a heretic and later after she was put to death declared a saint?

Would you want to claim that the HS was guiding your church when it made these decisions?

Absolutely.

You seem to be under the impression that being a member of the Catholic Church makes one infallible. You also seem not to have a clear definition of what infallability is. The Church is not perfect. She is made up of sinners like me, all of whom have free will.

The Church is guarded against teaching error in the areas of Faith and Morals. That is how She’s guided by the Holy Spirit. Jesus never said “I will build My Church and everyone will be perfect and never commit a wrong act”.

 

[San_Patricio]

I suppose God could use other “agents” but the question is: did He and what is the evidence for it?

We see clearly in Scripture that God used Mary to come into the world. He could have just appeared in physical form, but He chose to come through Her.
He sent His disciples to spread His word rather than just appearing to all people of the wolrd and delivering the message Himself.
He sent angels to deliver His word.
Obviously He uses other agents.

 

[bones_IV]

Have you read much of catholic church history? Are you aware that there was a time when there were 2-3 popes? Since this is the case, was the HS guiding your church?

Apples and oranges. Cite the evidence.

justasking4:

Or we can look at the inquisition. Was the HS guiding your church then?

Your looking at something that’s not a dogma and has nothing to do w/ infallibility.

justasking4:

Or take Joan of Arc. She was condemned as a heretic and later after she was put to death declared a saint?

Bishops and priests can make mistakes obviously. It seems you’re associating infallibility w/ impeccability.

justasking4:

Would you want to claim that the HS was guiding your church when it made these decisions?

We’re not members of the Church because the clergy are sinless. We’re members of the Catholic Church because of the real presence of Christ.

 

[justasking4]

No, you would not be guaranteed to find them all in agreement, because all people have free will and are fallible. If you read 10 commentaries that were correctly interpreted they would most likely be in agreement.
No one has an “infallible interpretation of each verse of the Bible”. The Church is here to offer her wisdom and guidance in
interpreting God’s written and unwritten word.
Where do you see in Scripture that we are guaranteed infallible knowledge on every verse?

We don’t. However doesn’t your church claim to be the only church that can properly interpret the scriptures?

Evangelicals and Baptists don’t even agree. Which Evangelicals and which Baptists?

I would think that they would agree on fundamental doctrines and the passages used to interpret those doctrines.

 

[justasking4]

Apples and oranges. Cite the evidence.

Your looking at something that’s not a dogma and has nothing to do w/ infallibility.
Look up Joan of Arc and the inquistions and you will find that there was in fact doctrines behind all this.

Bishops and priests can make mistakes obviously. It seems you’re associating infallibility w/ impeccability.
Not so. The scriptures warn of false teachers and their teachings. They both are connected.

We’re not members of the Church because the clergy are sinless. We’re members of the Catholic Church because of the real presence of Christ.

Do you a scripture refeerence for this?