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Onesimus
Guest
If this is not a distinction without difference, what is?
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R
rpp
Guest
But well worth repeating!
R
rpp
Guest
I see two big problems with many of the posts here.
The first is personal pride; an “I am right and you are not!” which is not either humble or helpful. But there is nothing I can do about that.
The second problem is using the same terms to mean different things. Frankly, Catholics do that a lot.
“Prayer” To a Catholic, there are two main types of “prayer”. The first is to God and is part and parcel of worship. The second is a formal request to another person. We can even see this second usage today in legal language where a lawyer “prays” the Judge will hear his pleading. Thus “prayer” to a saint, or the the Blessed Virgin Mary are utterly different than a prayer to God. Praying to a saint is exactly the same as asking a friend to pray for you.
For non-Catholics, “prayer” is generally to God only as many Protestants do not believe in the Communion of Saints.
“Intercede”, “intercession”. For most Protesteants, this is something only Jesus can do on behalf of sinners.
For Catholics, “intercession” referes to what Christ does for us. It is also something anyone and everyone does when they pray for someone else. Thus when a Catholic says that Mary intercedes for us, they mean that she is praying for us.
“Reverence” vs “Worship”. Both Protestants and Catholics only worship the one God; the mysterious Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit). There is a Greek termin for this, latria.
Catholics revere the saints, those who have lived holy lives and have already died and inherited their reward. The Greek term for this is dulia.
The Blessed Virgin Mary, because she holds such a special place being the one chosen to give birth to her own creator, has earned special reverence, above all other saints. This is known as hyper-dulia.
Once we understand the words we each are using, perhaps we can talk past each other less and talk to each other more.
I am a convert from atheism. I became Catholic just three years ago. Not because I thoiught it was the thing to do, but because God gave me a supernatural experience in which His servant, whom I believe to be Mary, was an important part.
The first is personal pride; an “I am right and you are not!” which is not either humble or helpful. But there is nothing I can do about that.
The second problem is using the same terms to mean different things. Frankly, Catholics do that a lot.
“Prayer” To a Catholic, there are two main types of “prayer”. The first is to God and is part and parcel of worship. The second is a formal request to another person. We can even see this second usage today in legal language where a lawyer “prays” the Judge will hear his pleading. Thus “prayer” to a saint, or the the Blessed Virgin Mary are utterly different than a prayer to God. Praying to a saint is exactly the same as asking a friend to pray for you.
For non-Catholics, “prayer” is generally to God only as many Protestants do not believe in the Communion of Saints.
“Intercede”, “intercession”. For most Protesteants, this is something only Jesus can do on behalf of sinners.
For Catholics, “intercession” referes to what Christ does for us. It is also something anyone and everyone does when they pray for someone else. Thus when a Catholic says that Mary intercedes for us, they mean that she is praying for us.
“Reverence” vs “Worship”. Both Protestants and Catholics only worship the one God; the mysterious Trinity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit). There is a Greek termin for this, latria.
Catholics revere the saints, those who have lived holy lives and have already died and inherited their reward. The Greek term for this is dulia.
The Blessed Virgin Mary, because she holds such a special place being the one chosen to give birth to her own creator, has earned special reverence, above all other saints. This is known as hyper-dulia.
Once we understand the words we each are using, perhaps we can talk past each other less and talk to each other more.
I am a convert from atheism. I became Catholic just three years ago. Not because I thoiught it was the thing to do, but because God gave me a supernatural experience in which His servant, whom I believe to be Mary, was an important part.
S
San_Patricio
Guest
How do you figure?
That’s very mature. I’m impressed.
I’m sorry, but you’re going to have to justify that statement. How is the fact that all that goes to Our Lady goes “to Jesus though Mary” making Mary the equivalent of God?
My, my. Someone’s awfully antagonistic today. Are you suggesting that the Pope is opposed to Marian devotion?
I’m quite aware of the fact that Mary is a separate being from God. I am also aware that everything we have of Mary’s life shows complete obedience to God’s will and total humility. She doesn’t seek devotion to herself, she seeks to intercede for us. She keeps nothing for herself, but gives all for her son. I suggest you produce some evidence to the contrary if you have a problem with her, rather than slinging baseless accusations.
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San_Patricio
Guest
Again, please produce evidence that Mary is not fully in submission to God’s will, that He would not grant special favors to His mother, or that she seeks to glorify herself, rather than serve her Son.Well if one is going to traffic in gratuitous assertions that can neither be substantiated, nor refuted…repeating oneself is the only rhetorical option left
These are not gratuitous assertions that can not be substantiated, they are back by 2000 years tradition from the best minds in Christianity, as well as being strongly supported by the Old & New Testament.
And I wouldn’t have to repeat myself if I received arguments with any substance, but since all I get is topic-shifting and accusations…
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San_Patricio
Guest
…And I’m sure you’ve loads of friends who are completely without sin. And Mothers of God.
Again, we don’t revere Mary for her own sake, but for Our Lord’s, and for the example of perfect humulity and obedience that she is for us.
T
TOME
Guest
Onesimus,
First, thank you for your questions which I see as an opportunity for me to study deeper this mystery. So what I am writing is more a reflection into my own understanding than trying to prove that I am right and someone else is wrong. (Coincidentally as I am writing this a special on the birth of Jesus just came on the History Channel, but I turned it off so as not to be unduly influenced by what is being said - these are my own thoughts).
My use of omnipotence should not be seen be seen as a distinction, rather a poor use of words.
When, trying to understand Mary’s role in mediation I think there are many things that should be considered as a whole and not as seperated categories.
First, everything in regards to any type of understanding and devotion to Mary has to be rooted in the understanding that all comes from God’s activity in the salvation of mankind and nothing concerning Mary begins with anything she did to merit the graces she received.
This is reflected from the very beginning of Mary’s existance, the Immaculate Conception. I think that most here would write that the Immaculate Conception (Mary being conceived with out Original Sin) was necessary so that Jesus’ human nature would not be tainted by Original Sin as well. I believe this is an important part,however, in regards to this discussion I would also add the IC was necessary so that Mary, when consenting to be the Mother of God, did so with total freedom of her will. She was totally free to say yes or no. Again this freedom came as an unmerited grace (Favor) from God.
Of coarse she said yes. But many, I think, feel that once she gave her “Fiat” that was the end God would take it from there. But that “Yes” was just the beginning. From what I have read, I cannot truely understand the role of Mary unless I understand Abraham, our Father in Faith. Abraham, also consented to God’s, first accepting God as his God, leaving his family and homeland and then came the ultimate act of Abraham’s faith. His total trust in God when God demamded that Abraham sacrifice his son Issac. Abraham, trusted in God and that God somehow would work out His promise to Abraham even though by sacrificing Issac seem to be totally against everything God promised him in building a great nation from Abraham’s offspring. Abraham trusted, and God delivered and spared Issac.
Mary too, had to show not only the same faith as Abraham but greater faith. This time in God’s plan of salvation, Mary’s son would not be spared, instead totally rejected and die a terrible death right in front of her eyes. Yet she believed.
(I have to leave right now but I will continue a little later).
First, thank you for your questions which I see as an opportunity for me to study deeper this mystery. So what I am writing is more a reflection into my own understanding than trying to prove that I am right and someone else is wrong. (Coincidentally as I am writing this a special on the birth of Jesus just came on the History Channel, but I turned it off so as not to be unduly influenced by what is being said - these are my own thoughts).
My use of omnipotence should not be seen be seen as a distinction, rather a poor use of words.
When, trying to understand Mary’s role in mediation I think there are many things that should be considered as a whole and not as seperated categories.
First, everything in regards to any type of understanding and devotion to Mary has to be rooted in the understanding that all comes from God’s activity in the salvation of mankind and nothing concerning Mary begins with anything she did to merit the graces she received.
This is reflected from the very beginning of Mary’s existance, the Immaculate Conception. I think that most here would write that the Immaculate Conception (Mary being conceived with out Original Sin) was necessary so that Jesus’ human nature would not be tainted by Original Sin as well. I believe this is an important part,however, in regards to this discussion I would also add the IC was necessary so that Mary, when consenting to be the Mother of God, did so with total freedom of her will. She was totally free to say yes or no. Again this freedom came as an unmerited grace (Favor) from God.
Of coarse she said yes. But many, I think, feel that once she gave her “Fiat” that was the end God would take it from there. But that “Yes” was just the beginning. From what I have read, I cannot truely understand the role of Mary unless I understand Abraham, our Father in Faith. Abraham, also consented to God’s, first accepting God as his God, leaving his family and homeland and then came the ultimate act of Abraham’s faith. His total trust in God when God demamded that Abraham sacrifice his son Issac. Abraham, trusted in God and that God somehow would work out His promise to Abraham even though by sacrificing Issac seem to be totally against everything God promised him in building a great nation from Abraham’s offspring. Abraham trusted, and God delivered and spared Issac.
Mary too, had to show not only the same faith as Abraham but greater faith. This time in God’s plan of salvation, Mary’s son would not be spared, instead totally rejected and die a terrible death right in front of her eyes. Yet she believed.
(I have to leave right now but I will continue a little later).
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
This whole thread just makes my skin crawl, I wish all of you could be more honest and quit trying to defend a quote that went way way way way too far, no matter how it is justified…
The “its taken out of context” argument is old. You guys use it for everything, I think I’ll take some time and see just how many quotes I can find like this and see how many times we see “out of context”
Admit it, your church should never have given the stamp of approval on this. IT’S WRONG!
The “its taken out of context” argument is old. You guys use it for everything, I think I’ll take some time and see just how many quotes I can find like this and see how many times we see “out of context”
Admit it, your church should never have given the stamp of approval on this. IT’S WRONG!
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
oooH HERE’S ONE!
But since** We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty**.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm
But since** We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty**.
papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm
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Stephen_C
Guest
You can quote Papal Encyclicals all you want Simon. If that what you want to do then have at it. Papal Encyclical does not necessarily constitute an ex-cathedra pronouncement. And therefore not considered infallible. If this thread makes you sick…then just stay away from it. Don’t know what this has to do with the OP’s question though. Feel free to start a new thread on Papal Encyclicals.
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mikeledes
Guest
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t it say in Exodus that Moses would be as God and Aaron his prophet. In what sense? In the sense that Moses was speaking for God and was thus His ambassador. I accept that Liguori’s choice of words were not the best. I don’t believe he was saying Mary was equal to God in power. That would be against constant Catholic teaching. What he wrote were his own personal refelctions on Mary, not an infallible teaching on her.
God Bless,
Michael
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Mike can you share where in exodus that is for CONTEXT purposes…
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Exodus 4Mike can you share where in exodus that is for CONTEXT purposes…
15
When he sees you, his heart will be glad. You are to speak to him, then, and put the words in his mouth.** I will assist both you** and him in speaking** and will teach the two of you what you are to do. **16
2 He shall speak to the people for you: he shall be your spokesman, and you shall be as God to him.
17
3 Take this staff in your hand; with it you are to perform the signs."
Mike,
This is a far cry from saying he would be almighty God on earth!!!
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
compared to this…
But since We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty, Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the Truth, and now that Our advanced age and the bitterness of anxious cares urge Us on towards the end common to every mortal, We feel drawn to follow the example of Our Redeemer and Master, Jesus Christ, Who, when about to return to Heaven, implored of God, His Father, in earnest Prayer, that His Disciples and followers should be of one mind and of one heart:
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Onesimus
Guest
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
This is a mighty lofty spot the Vatican is placing itself in…
Are you all comfortable with that?
It doesn’t seem very scriptural! not that it would matter to you.
T
TOP
Guest
sowing weeds
O
Onesimus
Guest
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