Apologetics-low level scholarship

[MIDGIE]

Misericordie, I think if you look closely at the founders of the great teaching orders, you’ll find they FIRST had an encounter with Jesus Christ before their ministries began.

As the Holy Father has said: ***“Religion itself, without the experience of wondrous discovery of the Son of God and communion with him, who became our brother, becomes a mere set of principles that are increasingly difficult to understand, and rules that are increasingly hard to accept.” ***

***“While we may have assented intellectually to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, we may not have sufficient personal experience of his power in our lives *to give us the boldness and assurance to proclaim him as Lord and Savior to our society and our world.” **

"All evangelization begins in an encounter with Christ. Therefore, the pope writes, "a fresh encounter with Jesus Christ will make all the members of the Church in America aware that they are called to continue the Redeemer’s mission in their lands."

"Evangelization requires us to have a personal encounter with the Lord, a personal relationship with Jesus."

Jesus said that all who were heavy laden should go to HIM for rest. He also said that we search the Scriptures thinking we’ll find in them eternal life, but that it was only by going to HIM that we would find life! We will only find HIM when we raise our hearts to HIM in prayer; in study; at Mass; receiving the Sacraments, etc… We can have all the head knowledge and yet not have faith nor any experiential knowledge of the Lord’s Power in our lives.

Again, as the Holy Father said: ***“The knowledge conferred by faith is of a different kind: it presupposes a personal encounter with God in Jesus Christ.” ***

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But how can we know without prayer AND Sacred Study?*
Revelation Knowledge.

God bless you

 

[Arrowood]

The intellect vs. relationship with Christ is a false dicotomy. We cannot love what we do not know. On the other hand, if you look at the writings of the great mistics and spiritual teachers, intellect without relationship is dangerous! Also, many spiritual masters advise that the intellect can get us to a certain point in our faith (theology = faith seeking understanding), but in the end the human intellect alone is insufficient to know a limitless God. At some point we must rely on God’s grace, clinging to Him with only our will, because our intellect will fail us.

That said, I agree with the value that **misericordie **places in the intellect. I believe that anti-intellectualism sacrifices a lot of wonder and awe that God wants to be part of our relationship with Him. I also believe that we need to exercise and apply the intellect to our world if we hope to transform it with the Gospel. Can we win the war on abortion by carrying signs and being emphatic? I don’t think so. I see the war on abortion being won in my classroom when I point out the logical inconsistencies in the pro-choice argument and students who enter pro-choice or undecided leave staunchly pro-life. Of course, the war will only be won with prayer and only when we can change the hearts of those promoting the culture of death, but it can also be forwarded in the human mind.

The answer is not intellect OR relationship. The answer is intellect in the context of a relationship with God.

 

[amarischuk]

Well, to those who think I place a high value on reason and the intellect…you are correct. All this talk about faith raises an issue I have which lies at the very core of “faith”. All the “personal relationship/experience with Jesus” presupposes an assumption, an assumption I believe is far more absurd than my trust in science, scholarship and reason. This assumption is in revelation. As a former internet apologist, I studied the development of Scripture extensively to combat the notion of sola scriptura and defend the deuterocanonical books; however, this study also gave rise to a sense that there is nothing unique about Scripture. I cannot point to infallibility in the Bible anymore than a Jew can the Torah or a Muslim the Qu’ran.

What makes Catholicism important to me, and unique to me is that it is a living religion and not a book religion. Yves Congar’s book “Tradition and Traditions” is an interesting read, and I believe that for Catholicism to be intellectually viable, scripture must not be seen as seperate from tradition, but rather a part of it.

And yet there is all this talk about a personal experience with Jesus. What exactly is the nature of this personal experience and how will I know when I have one? I for three years I went to daily Mass, confession every week, Eucharistic adoration, my spiritual director was Opus Dei, I went on silent retreats, prayed the rosary daily, worked at a soup kitchen and worked with handicapped children, ran a young adult discussion group at my parish, was on the parish council, worked in a mission in Mexico, went on pilgrimage to Rome, Assisi and Monte Casino, I even studied at a seminary for 9 months. If someone says “Did you ever open your heart to Jesus?” I’ll scream. One does not throw away so much time and only ever think “Jesus was an okay guy” and besides, I don’t buy this “Jesus is my personal saviour” nonesense. That is an invention of the 20th century and specifically American style Protestantism.

I am still Catholic, and as long as I believe in a higher power I will be Catholic; though I have a strong attachment to Eastern Orthodoxy. I don’t really care to argue about this much but if someone could explain this “Jesus encounter” thing a bit better I would appreciate it. My former spritual director at the seminary and the silent retreat director failed to explain this whole emotionalism to me. Perhaps someone here can without making it sound like new-age Protestantism.

As for scholarship, I have yet to work out the difference between the faith of a child and superstition. Other than, I suppose, people will say (resting on an unsupported presupposition) that the faith of the child has the proper object (Jesus) while superstition doesn’t.

Thank you all for your prayers,

Adam Marischuk

 

[Jennifer123]

amarischuk:

And yet there is all this talk about a personal experience with Jesus. I for three years I went to daily Mass, confession every week, Eucharistic adoration, my spiritual director was Opus Dei, I went on silent retreats, prayed the rosary daily, worked at a soup kitchen and worked with handicapped children, ran a young adult discussion group at my parish, was on the parish council, worked in a mission in Mexico, went on pilgrimage to Rome, Assisi and Monte Casino, I even studied at a seminary for 9 months. If someone says “Did you ever open your heart to Jesus?” I’ll scream. One does not throw away so much time and only ever think “Jesus was an okay guy” and besides, I don’t buy this “Jesus is my personal saviour” nonesense. That is an invention of the 20th century and specifically American style Protestantism.

Adam Marischuk

As Catholics, we adhere to the “both/and” not the “either/or” that separates us theologically from Protestants. This means that we believe in “faith AND reason” as well as “faith AND works”. From what I can tell in your posts you tend to gravitate towards the “either/or”, at least intellectually.

No one can argue that your works aren’t impressive and aren’t pleasing to the Father, I’m sure he is well pleased in your gift to give of yourself to your fellow man. That is commendable, and as a gift to you from Our Lord, may all praise and thanks be given to Him. As you know, they aren’t of your own doing, as all good things come from Him.

To me, if you have to question,“What exactly is the nature of this personal experience and how will I know when I have one?” then you haven’t yet experienced the real, life-changing relationship with Jesus that he wants for you. While you may think the Protestant slogan about a “personal relationship” is nonsense, it is real my friend. Just b/c they are separated breatheren doesn’t mean they don’t have access to the Truth.

Your works, separate from faith, won’t get you any closer to Him or to heaven. I’m attaching some words of encouragement from Mark Shea. God bless and I will pray for a true conversion.

Words of Encouragement

Title: Relationship Between Faith & Works
Author: Mark Shea
Date: Monday, February 3, 2003

Colossians 1:29
For this I toil, striving with all the energy which he mightily inspires within me.

One of the classic puzzlements that have vexed Christians over the ages is the relationship between faith and works. Today’s verse shows how the New Testament in general and Paul in particular tend to resolve the “problem” in a way that shows there is practically no problem to resolve. For Paul, asking whether the Christian life is about faith or works is like asking which blade on the scissors does the cutting, or whether a zebra is white with black stripes or black with white stripes, or like asking whether water is “really” oxygen combined with hydrogen or “really” hydrogen combined with oxygen. It is a nonsense question. For Paul, what matters is our living with Christ. If we are in union with him, the powerful energy of his Spirit will certainly flow through us in love for others and worship of the Father. For the reality is not a question of whether “faith” or “works” saves us. The reality is that we are saved by God the Father through Jesus Christ his Son in the power of the Holy Spirit by faith expressing itself in works of love. Removing anything from that statement is like removing a vital organ from a living thing. Grab hold of everything God is offering and don’t settle for a stripped-down faith.

 

[maggiec]

Many years ago I was very active in my parish. I was a euchartist minister, took communion to patients in the hospital and homebound. Taught 7th grade confirmation class and was ccd director. I was a lector at daily mass which I never missed. Don’t ask me if I new Jesus, I had it all.
Then something terrible happened and I quit the church. My life fell apart and I had nothing, and no one to turn to.
For 20 years I lived without my church and very little faith… When my dad was diagnosed with cancer and had a lung removed, I went back home My parents lived about 1500 miles from me. He had all the usual treatments. After a year of my mother taking care of him he was recovering and she got sick, went to the dr and was told she was terminal with 6 months at most. She lived 3 months. She died Dec 5th 2002.
At her funeral mass the priest talked about her faith, the love she and my dad had for each other and shared with others in the church. They knew no strangers, all were children of God. My sister asked me to read the 2nd reading at moms funeral I wanted nothing more than to sit quietly until the funeral was over and go home. But I said I would. The reader that was suppose to read the petitions of the faithful didn’t get up. Dad asked me if I would do the reading. I found myself going back up one more time. This time when I sat down I knew I was missing something. I didn’t know what to do. I pushed the feeling to the back of my mind. My husband and I left for our home.
Dad died March 1, 2003 and I found myself returning to my childhood home one more time. My sister again asked me to do the reading. This time, when I got up, I knew what the feeling was. Jesus was calling me home. There was no place else for me to go.
After a long journey back to the church my husband and I were married at a morning mass on our 5th anniversary. When I recieved the body and blood of Jesus for the first time in many years all I could say was thank you Jesus over and over again. Now instead of going through the motions I truly have a personal relationship with Jesus, and with the grace of God I’ll never leave again.
Please don’t give up on your faith. Jesus will keep opening doors for you, all you have to do is take one step through, He will lead you the rest of the way.
maggiec

 

[MIDGIE]

amarischuk:

. I don’t really care to argue about this much but if someone could explain this “Jesus encounter” thing a bit better I would appreciate it.

Adam, I can’t speak for anyone but myself. I met Jesus when I was going through the darkest hour of my life. I always believed in God and did everythig I knew to do to help others. My life was going wonderful when all of a sudden the rug was pulled from beneath my feet. I literally felt like Job. I won’t go into all the details of the hell I went through, but suffice it to say that I KNEW I needed a Savior. I prayed the Rosary unceasingly and cried day and night to God for His Help. He was really my ONLY Hope. I needed a Miracle and He was the ONLY Miracle-worker I knew of. Never in a million years did I expect that Jesus Christ Himself would appear to me and pick me up out of the fire of affliction and put me back on my feet again, but He did. Jesus Christ is a man, but a man like NO other. He came in a dimension not of this world. He appeared to me on the Cross and immediately afterwards He was standing before me in His Glorious Risen Body with a smile from His Eyes that I will NEVER forget. I begged Him not to leave me and to take me with Him, but He just smiled the most loving smile and told me that He would never leave me or forsake me and that He would be with me till the end. Then He simply vanished as He ascended upwards as He left me filled with JOY, JOY, JOY!

NOTHING can shake my faith in Jesus Christ now. The Lord has given me a JOY that no man can take from me. I know…that I know…that I know…that Jesus is ALIVE and that He hears and answers our prayers. I know for a fact that Jesus does come in to us and sups with us…EXACTLY as His Word proclaims.

Jesus also literally spoke to me from His Word, so I also have NO doubt that the Bible is God’s Love Letter to His children and that it is supernatural.

I am now Christ’s witness in the world and have literally experienced His Crucifixion and know the Power of His Resurrection…and couldn’t keep this Truth to myself even if I wanted to.

It is as the Holy Father has said:

**"The proclamation of Christ is not something reserved for a few, the Pope states. It is “the responsibility of all the members of the People of God,” he writes. "Those who have come into genuine contact with Christ cannot keep him for themselves, they must proclaim him." This proclamation must not be imposed but proposed “with confidence,” the Holy Father explains." **

God bless you

 

[misericordie]

Thank you Arrowood, and amarischuk, I see you both are not just into the Jesus the social worker. Rather, highly value - faith AND reason.

      Why is there such an infatuation with just "Jesus"?  What ever happened to the title that makes Him Divine too?  For example, Jesus CHRIST?  When Jesus the social worker is the one looked up to, and when some catechetical books draw childish pictures of Jesus playing basketball, football etc., it is very funny, unreal, and most of all sad.  I cannot help but laugh:rotfl:  when some ask: "have you accepted Jesus as your Lord and savior (usually those with pentecostal or fundamentalist backgrounds or influence):crying: 
  Yes Revelation is very important, but how can a person know what is the revelation and if it comes from God, without study AND prayer.
Of course:rolleyes:  Sacred study must have high value when we currently have a Pope who has a doctorate in Philosophy from the Angelicum, and another from a University in Poland (theology).   It is great to use something the pope said (he has not declared anything ex-cathedra(infallible yet), but then in must be looked at from the context of ALL he has written, such as Fides et Ratio(Faith and Reason).   Also, what have other Pope's as Pius XII said regarding study?  We must remember, Popes for the most part always USE writings such as encyclicals of previous popes to make their OWN analysis about something:clapping: .
                       :tiphat:

SAPIENTIA ET DOCTRINA

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

Adam, in your studies, did you encounter the ecclesial movement Communion and Liberation, or the writings of its founder, Msgr. Luigi Giussani? Your comments sound familiar to me… they describe “places” akin to those I’ve visited in the past, and I’ve found CL and Giussani to be very fulfilling, intellectually and at other levels as well.

CL’s international homepage is clonline.org/

The national page for the US is clonline.org/ and for Canada is communionliberation.ca/

If I may, I’d recommend you read this article (clonline.org/us/docs/RecognizingChrist.doc) by Giussani… it’s a good entry into the charism and ethos of the movement.

Peace,
Chris

 

[Ray_Marshall]

amarischuk:

Well, to those who think I place a high value on reason and the intellect…you are correct…

What exactly is the nature of this personal experience and how will I know when I have one?

Adam, thank you for sharing your heart and your pain.

Like most of us, you take great pride in your abilities, knowledge and accomplishments. But I am not sure that that is what God is looking for when He communicates with us.**

“Be Still And Know That I Am God.” (Ps. 46:10)**

I might suggest that you intersperse your valuable reading and your social outreach activities with regular periods of silence.

Jesus is regularly communicating with us. Except that very few listen.

Spend some time each day “doing nothing” at all. Don’t pray, don’t think. Control the turmoil of your mind.

You might do it in Eucharistic Adoration if that is available in your community. Or perhaps a visit to a Church, a park, a private room or some other place where you won’t be interrupted.

Be sure to disable telephones, doorbells and pets.

Don’t try to bite off too much at once. Limit yourself to five minutes or so to start and as you gain experience, lengthen the period.

Concentrate on your breathing and clear your mind of your ideas, hopes, dreams and frustrations. Listen for Jesus. He wants to talk to you. He’s wanted to do that for a long time, but you just haven’t been listening and you haven’t heard Him above the clutter.

If ideas pop into your mind, well then just think of Jesus and clear your mind again.

I’ve been where you are, and this works.

 

[MIDGIE]

There is nothing wrong with reason and intellect, but as the Scriptures state: "Without FAITH, it is impossible to please God…for those who come to God must believe that He IS and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently SEEK HIM."

Those who seek DO find!

God Bless

 

[amarischuk]

Thanks Ray for the suggestion, I do enjoy meditation and reflection. One of my favorite times to meditate is while working around the yard or while sailing, I just turn my brain to everything and nothing and mow, weed eat or whatever. Thankfully I live in one of the most beautiful places on earth and it gives me the opportunity to reflect on my place in the Universe while I look at the mountains, lakes or stars.

But Midge, you seem to be operating on an inconsistent definition of faith. According to Aquinas you cannot have faith (believe) in something you know, so is faith to you merely intellectual assent to an uncertainty?

I thought faith was a theological virtue and hence a gift from God, not a pelagianist assent to an uncertainty.

 

[SteveG]

I tend to agree with you about the protestant notion of ‘my personal experience of Jesus’ becoming so dominant having crept into the way we speak. We are a community and the body of Christ and as family we are to worship and encounter Him. Yet, I think that there IS some validity to personal experience. What comes to my mind to explain it is many such encounters in the bible (and they hold true even if you doubt the book). The adultress about to be stoned, the leper who reached out to the Lord and whom the Lord touched, the blind man who when asked what he wanted, replied ‘To see’, Peter’s mother-in-law who after being healed rose up to serve them, many others. Jesus is personal in the sense that I am he/she/them. In my depravity, he reached out to heal me, in my blindness he gave sight, in my fever he healed me and I feel compelled to serve him. That’s the personal experience many feel. We were/are the masses and the sick whom he healed and fed, and we are trying in our imperfect way to say Thank You.

I have read both Pieper and The Little Flower. Pieper is more intelligent by far, but The Little Flower helped bring me closer to the mystery. I am NOT anti-intellectual, but I suggest trying to make friends with the saints, by reading their lives.

My perception is that you are making the mistake of striving to explain it all. By definintion, it is all mystery. I defies our grasping for it. I believe Augustine said that it’s like trying to pour the sea into a bowl. You are clearly intelligent, but it is not your job to figure it all out. Accept that, and keep your shoulder to the plough.

The meaning of life is simply to learn how to give and receive love. The savior on the cross shows us the extreme of how to do so.

 

[nobody]

Adam,

I feel myself heading your way sometimes: wanting to read EVERYTHING so that I can figure it all out for myself. However, that is my pride, thinking that my puny mind, by itsself, could actually comprehend the mystery of it all. In my moments of faith, I put my trust in the combined thoughts and inspirations of thousands of minds over thousands of years (the Church).

I couldn’t find my copy of THE IMITATION OF CHRIST, but I’ll try to paraphrase a part that I try to take to heart: Lord, I am often exhausted by all that I read and hear, please let all creation be silent in your sight, that I may hear your voice. Oh, I’m sure I butchered that. I read other posts along the same lines of the point I’m trying to make - every so often, silence your mind, and pray, and listen.

I hope this helped a little.

 

[Pace]

amarischuk:

…very real threat that Catholicism will become another fundamentalist denomination fighting battles long over, reminiscient of the Scopes Monkey trials.

Thank you for hearing my rant and I am interested in hearing other people’s opinions on the subject. Perhaps this doesn’t belong in “apologetics” but then again, perhaps apologetics itself needs an apologist.

We could all just relax and enjoy a movie . The battle has already been won. All sides have been brought together in “Mulholland Drive”.

 

[MIDGIE]

amarischuk:

But Midge, you seem to be operating on an inconsistent definition of faith. According to Aquinas you cannot have faith (believe) in something you know, so is faith to you merely intellectual assent to an uncertainty?

I thought faith was a theological virtue and hence a gift from God, not a pelagianist assent to an uncertainty.

Adam, I know for a fact that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. Even though I have met the Lord Face-to-face, I have to walk by faith and not by sight. I have faith in what Jesus said to me before He left me…“I will never leave you or forsake you…” Even though I can not see the Lord now, I have faith that He is with me always as He told me He would be.

**“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen.” ** Hebrews 11:1

God bless you

 

[amarischuk]

SteveG wrote:

My perception is that you are making the mistake of striving to explain it all.

No, I don’t think that is the intellectual sin of pride, I think it is the same passion as what animated Aquinas to write the Summas and Rahner the Sacramentum Mundi. Though I would never hold myself to the same level as those two.

Nobody wrote:

I couldn’t find my copy of THE IMITATION OF CHRIST

Don’t worry, I have one. But personally I can’t stand the book. Whoever wrote it (it is still disputed) is a perfect example of what Nietzsche called the “despisers of the body”. Read Etienne Gilson’s Reason and Revelation in the Middle Ages for a history of the battle between Aquinas and the anti-intellectual school which The Imitation belongs to.

And Midgie, you still haven’t explained what faith is, only that it is necessary. Is it just blind belief in an uncertainty? Why not have faith in the Qu’ran or the Upanishads? If faith is such a big thing, why would God make such a big deal about intellectual assent to a series of unprovable propositions?

Abraham is our father in faith, and personally I find his willingness to sacrifice Isaac disgusting and contrary to Aquinas’ natural law theory (Aquinas makes a rather desperate attempt to accomodate the order to kill an innocent but ends up in a fashion leaning towards the nominalism of God’s arbitrary will rather than the objectivity of natural law). If you want to see true virtue, imagine is Abraham would have been unwilling to will the innocent out of love for his son, and risk eternal damnation for it.

 

[petra]

amarischuk:

And yet there is all this talk about a personal experience with Jesus. What exactly is the nature of this personal experience and how will I know when I have one? . . . I don’t buy this “Jesus is my personal saviour” nonesense. That is an invention of the 20th century and specifically American style Protestantism.

. . . I don’t really care to argue about this much but if someone could explain this “Jesus encounter” thing a bit better I would appreciate it. My former spritual director at the seminary and the silent retreat director failed to explain this whole emotionalism to me. Perhaps someone here can without making it sound like new-age Protestantism.

I would also like to thank you for your honesty, Adam. I will pray for you, as well.

You wish for an explanation of this “Jesus encounter” and “personal experience.” On the other hand, the notion of Him being a personal savior is offensive to you. Theology and intellect can tell us that Chist is a Savior. But to have a personal experience with Him, it has to be — well, personal. I don’t hear this talked about as much in Catholic circles as I did when a Protestant, but I don’t think it is contrary to Catholic theology, and I think it is essential to spiritual intimacy. This encounter with Christ is a personal relationship. The thing that surprised me the most when I first became a Christian 24 years ago was how ACTIVE God was in the relationship. I anticipated that I would talk to him through prayer, and He would talk to me through the Bible. In fact, I found Him to be the initiator in the relationship. I was along for the ride! It was amazing. As He revealed Himself to me in such a personal way, it was easy for me to give my whole heart to him and follow my Lord.

A key aspect to this intimacy is identifying your own weaknesses and asking for Him to work through that weakness, perfecting His power. In this regard, being weak is good. St. Paul boasted of his weaknesses that Christ’s power was perfected in him. Adam, you seem like a very self-sufficient person. But self-sufficiency leaves little to no room for this very personal interaction with God. Ask yourself: what are your needs, fears, hurts. What feels empty in your life? What do you long for? Yes, these are emotions. But relationships have an emotional component. (certainly happy marriages do) It is on this level you will find the personal experience with Christ for which you are longing.

If you cannot identify the places of neediness in your heart, perhaps a door has been locked long ago. If this is the case, dig deep to find out why, even if it’s painful. And never give up! I’m sure you’ve prayed for Christ Jesus to reveal Himself to you personally, so continue to do that. When He does, respond to Him as if only you and He existed in the universe. Bless you, and I’ll be praying.

 

[Ray_Marshall]

amarischuk:

Thanks Ray for the suggestion, I do enjoy meditation and reflection. One of my favorite times to meditate is while working around the yard or while sailing, I just turn my brain to everything and nothing and mow, weed eat or whatever.

You didn’t quite get the message!

Be Still And Know That I Am God!

No reflecting. Be quiet. Listen to what Jesus is telling you. Your mind, like mine often does, is running at 70 mph. You have to turn it off so that His message can get through to you.

You can’t “meditate” when you are working around the yard or sailing.

Go sit somewhere where you won’t think about school, work, friends, problems, theology, the future, the past, etc.

Be in the present!

 

[SteveG]

amarischuk:

Abraham is our father in faith, and personally I find his willingness to sacrifice Isaac disgusting and contrary to Aquinas’ natural law theory (Aquinas makes a rather desperate attempt to accomodate the order to kill an innocent but ends up in a fashion leaning towards the nominalism of God’s arbitrary will rather than the objectivity of natural law). If you want to see true virtue, imagine is Abraham would have been unwilling to will the innocent out of love for his son, and risk eternal damnation for it.

You attest that you are not intent on ‘getting it all figure out’, yet when this does not fit into one of your pre-assigned intellectual compartments, you label it disgusting. For you to only be able to judge this episode via your intellectual, modern, skeptical mindset evidences a lack of understanding of the cultural context in which salvation history was played out. To view this with only the eyes of our hyper individualistic mentality does speak of a pridefulness in the way in which you read such events.

Further, for all you know, the trust and faith Abraham had, revolved as much around the trust which he had that God would ultimately NOT have him kill his son as it did around his willingness to raise the knife. How can you possibly know what he was thinking, or the full motives behind his actions.

If you find this disgusting, I wonder if you find the fact that our God would actually go ahead and allow His Son to be our sacrifice equally or more disgusting. If so, despite all the study you’ve done, I think you may have missed the message of the gospel.

 

[toutestgrace]

Thank you for coming here Adam. My suggestions for the collegiate theological blues are the following:

Read and pray with the 3 Big T’s - Therese, Teresa, and Mother Teresa.
Eucharistic adoration.
Daily Mass.

In reverse order! Your cerebral edema needs to be managed by a heart transplant. It works. And then you can go back to the scholars with a faith that will shed light, not shadows, on their musings.

Remember - KEEP PRAYING.