Apologetics Zingers

[mercygate]

That is not what I asked, mercygate.

I asked, “do you agree with the statement all of Jesus is God;” it seems that you do not agree with that statement; is that correct?

Check the Constantinopolitan formulation. Jesus is the incarnation of the second Person of the Trinity. He is not like a pagan demigod, half this and half that. The question “all of Jesus is God” must be answered: yes. We go so far as to say that on Calvary, God died. But the Incarnation could not be understood by limiting Jesus to “all God” because he is “all Man” as well.

The formulation is that Jesus is true God and true Man, one Divine Person. One Person. Divine. Two natures – human and divine.

I’m not the best person to explain this: I barely get it myself – but I get it enough to understand that the hypostatic union requires that the Incarnation be entirely unique. I trust the struggles of the 4th century Church to define this against both Arianism and Nestorianism and against the background of gnosticism and pagan demi-gods.

God cannot be half of himself. And the Incarnation would be inadequately expressed by ideas that a man was invested with divine properties or that God took on human properties. The union must be complete and inseparable.

Hey! this thread is about zingers. No zingers possible on this topic: or ARE there?

 

[teachccd]

That is not what I asked, mercygate.

I asked, “do you agree with the statement all of Jesus is God;” it seems that you do not agree with that statement; is that correct?

Yes, as well as " all of Jesus is** human**".

I believe that all of us know how to read and when we read that “** Jesus is God” is heretical** we tend to take issue with that as ALL Christians should.** Jesus is fully God and** fully man. No other explanations needed. Period. We apprehend this from the wellspring of God’s revelation even though we will never comprehend this in our lifetime. Now back to the apologetic zingers…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Wow! I’ve heard a lot of verbal gymnasitics to try and deny the obvious implications of this, but to go to the extreme of denying the total divinity of Christ is – well, EXTREME.

Well said, this is truly a new one in the books for me.
It is utterly amazing how far many protestants will go to avoid recognizing the Catholic Church is right and that its position makes sense.

None of you is reading carefully.

I’ll restate the syllogism:Major Premise: Jesus is God
Minor Premise: Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Conclusion: Mary is the Mother of GodAnd, here is what I said concerning the major premise of the syllogism:Let me restate the implication of the major premise another way:All of Jesus is GodAny of you folks agree with that?

Ok, think I got you, how about this, I AGREE with you, now lets plug that into the equation:Major Premise: All of Jesus is God
Minor Premise: Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Conclusion: Mary is the Mother of God
Im guessing you agree now?

 

[PhilVaz]

<< Major Premise: All of Jesus is God
Minor Premise: Mary is the Mother of Jesus
Conclusion: Mary is the Mother of God

Im guessing you agree now? >>

Almost but not quite. The Council of Svendsendon says:

(1) Some of Jesus is God.
(2) Mary is mother of some of Jesus.
(3) Therefore, Mary is “mother of the non-God part of Jesus.”

For you see, “The fallacy again lies in not making the proper distinction between the humanity and deity of Christ. No one in the first century worshipped the body of Christ per se, but rather the person of Christ who happened to be embodied. It is one thing to worship Christ’s person; it is quite another thing to worship Christ’s body, which is idolatry.” (Eric Svendsen on the Eucharist, from page 242 of his Evangelical Answers 1997 edition, similar comments are in his 2001 book Who is My Mother?).

You get me? It’s called the Council of Svendsendon, that’s what sandusky is defending. It’s the “some of Jesus” nonsense and Mary is “mother of the non-God part of Jesus” nonsense.

Phil P

 

[calchiquita]

None of you is reading carefully.

I’ll restate the syllogism:Major Premise: Jesus is God

Minor Premise: Mary is the Mother of Jesus

Conclusion: Mary is the Mother of GodAnd, here is what I said concerning the major premise of the syllogism:Let me restate the implication of the major premise another way:All of Jesus is GodAny of you folks agree with that?

Ooopsie… I did read it wrong. Just got confused… common virus among the Catholic apologists

 

[MrS]

Ooopsie… I did read it wrong. Just got confused… common virus among the Catholic apologists

hey… that line resembles me… almost

or were you just taking a last minute zinger… before actually coming into RCIA??

 

[Mary3]

To be deep in History, is to cease to be Protestant - John Henry Newman

 

[Fidelis]

From the Athanasian Creed. Read it and reap:

…**29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. **

1. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

1. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

1. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

1. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

**34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. **

**35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God. **

**36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. **

37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ…

ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

 

[teachccd]

but rather the person of Christ who happened to be embodied

. It is one thing to worship Christ’s person; it is quite another thing to worship Christ’s body, which is idolatry." (Eric Svendsen on the Eucharist, from page 242 of his Evangelical Answers 1997 edition, similar comments are in his 2001 book Who is My Mother?).

You get me? It’s called the Council of Svendsendon, that’s what sandusky is defending. It’s the “some of Jesus” nonsense and Mary is “mother of the non-God part of Jesus” nonsense.

Phil P

Sandusky, speak now or forever hold your peace…because what’s in the golden quote box above is HERESY. NOW, Can we get off this non-sense and get back to apologetic zingers??

---

A question asked by visitors at a monastery:

Who made the fish and chips?? They’re fantastic!!!

The fish friar and the chip monk, of course!!!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Almost but not quite. The Council of Svendsendon says:

(1) Some of Jesus is God.
(2) Mary is mother of some of Jesus.
(3) Therefore, Mary is “mother of the non-God part of Jesus.”

To my knowledge there never was a council in Sveden.

For you see, “The fallacy again lies in not making the proper distinction between the humanity and deity of Christ. No one in the first century worshipped the body of Christ per se, but rather the person of Christ who happened to be embodied. It is one thing to worship Christ’s person; it is quite another thing to worship Christ’s body, which is idolatry.” (Eric Svendsen on the Eucharist, from page 242 of his Evangelical Answers 1997 edition, similar comments are in his 2001 book Who is My Mother?).

I cant stop laughing, I cant breathe…help!

You get me? It’s called the Council of Svendsendon, that’s what sandusky is defending. It’s the “some of Jesus” nonsense and Mary is “mother of the non-God part of Jesus” nonsense.

Phil P

Hopefully by now Sandusky has recognized what he said.
Its truly amazing, words cant describe some of the excuses I hear from Protestants.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

A few of the quotes I found in St Francis de Sales’ “The Catholic Controversy”
[Quoting St Jerome]
To reduce a heresy to its origin is to have refuted it.

Also:

You read the writings of Calvin, of Zwingle, of Luther: take out of these, I beg you, the railings, calumnies, insults, detraction, ridicule, and buffoonery which they contain against the Pope and the Holy See of Rome, and you will find that nothing will remain. You listen to your ministers; impose silence upon them as regards railings, detraction, calumnies against the Holy See, and you will have your sermons half their length.
I know there is more, and Im mad I didnt highlight them when I had the chance

 

[sandusky]

calchiquita:

Ooopsie… I did read it wrong. Just got confused… common virus among the Catholic apologists

So has everyone else; and you want to become one of them?

Christ is one person, fully God, and fully man.

Fidelis’ fallacious syllogism misses the intent of the councils of Ephesus, and Chalcedon whose emphasis is the deity of Christ (you can read the statement here), and not the elevation of Mary as mother of God and the ensuing development of the Marian cult peculiar to your future denomination.

Feel free to PM me about that (your denominational switch; I am an ex-Catholic), if you are so inclined.

And now you can all honor teachccd’s request, and get back to the zingers. :tiphat:

 

[PhilVaz]

dude << To my knowledge there never was a council in Sveden. … I cant stop laughing, I cant breathe…help! >>

The “Council of Svendsendon” (my name) was held a couple of years ago on Svendsen’s blog. He’s been trying to defend Nestorius ever since his “mother of the non-God part of Jesus” nonsense (quoted both in his Evangelical Answers, and Who is My Mother? books) has been pointed out by myself and various folks on Greg Krehbiel’s old board. The quote I’ve presented from Evangelical Answers reads like this:

“Jesus is both God and man; therefore, we must use the proposition some of Jesus is God…Mary cannot be said to be the mother of all of Jesus, but only of his humanity…Mary is the mother of some of Jesus; for Mary could very well be (and indeed is) mother of only the non-God part of Jesus…The fallacy again lies in not making the proper distinction between the humanity and deity of Christ. No one in the first century worshipped the body of Christ per se, but rather the person of Christ who happened to be embodied…” (Eric Svendsen, Evangelical Answers, 1997 edition, pages 179, 242)

And if you want to see the fuller context, I’ve provided a scan of the pages here NestorianAnswers.PDF

Phil P

 

[Catholic_Dude]

dude << To my knowledge there never was a council in Sveden. … I cant stop laughing, I cant breathe…help! >>

The “Council of Svendsendon” (my name) was held a couple of years ago on Svendsen’s blog. He’s been trying to defend Nestorius ever since his “mother of the non-God part of Jesus” nonsense (quoted both in his Evangelical Answers, and Who is My Mother? books) has been pointed out by myself and various folks on Greg Krehbiel’s old board. The quote I’ve presented from Evangelical Answers reads like this:

I was trying to make a joke, I have heard Germans pronounce the country of Sweden as sounding like “Sveden” with the W sounding like a V.
Kind of like how the car brand Volkswagon is pronouced Volks Vagen.

“Jesus is both God and man; therefore, we must use the proposition some of Jesus is God …Mary cannot be said to be the mother of all of Jesus, but only of his humanity…Mary is the mother of some of Jesus; for Mary could very well be (and indeed is) mother of only the non-God part of Jesus…The fallacy again lies in not making the proper distinction between the humanity and deity of Christ. No one in the first century worshipped the body of Christ per se , but rather the person of Christ who happened to be embodied…” (Eric Svendsen, Evangelical Answers, 1997 edition, pages 179, 242)

And if you want to see the fuller context, I’ve provided a scan of the pages here NestorianAnswers.PDF

Wow, if that book has such grave error as that Im worried about what other twists he makes later on.

p.s. he shouldnt have drug poor Boots into his sorry excuse for apolgetics.
%between%

 

[DaveBj]

Hey, y’all, get a room!

This is the apologetics zingers thread, not the christological debate thread.

DaveBj

 

[jmcrae]

Someone named Michael sent me this one, back in November of 2000.

*One. Holy. Catholic. Apostolic. If these four words don’t describe your Church, then get off that rocket to Hell, and get into the Ark of Salvation, the Catholic Church. *

I was on the phone to a Catholic priest within the same hour.

 

[RyanL]

Used in conversation regarding “Mary Worship”:
God Breathed Scripture:

Luke 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord…

So tell me…how does Mary’s soul magnify the Lord for you?

To be used in conversation regarding Mary as our mother and the Christology debate above:

As a Christian, who is your Father? That’s right, God the Father. Then what does that make Jesus? That’s right, our Brother and fellow Son of God. Well, if we share a Father, and we’re actually and truly Brothers of Jesus, then what does that make Mary?!?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[mercygate]

So has everyone else; and you want to become one of them?

Christ is one person, fully God, and fully man.

Fidelis’ fallacious syllogism misses the intent of the councils of Ephesus, and Chalcedon whose emphasis is the deity of Christ (you can read the statement here), and not the elevation of Mary as mother of God

Ah ha! Sandy, you’re starting to get this! You’re just one good confession away from returning home, Sandy. We’re keepin’ the light on for you.

. . .and the ensuing development of the Marian cult peculiar to your future denomination.

Feel free to PM me about that (your denominational switch; I am an ex-Catholic), if you are so inclined.

People around here soundly reject the term “denomination” as applied to the Catholic Church. We hold a specific definition for the word “Church” and a specific definition of the word “denomination.”

And now you can all honor teachccd’s request, and get back to the zingers. :tiphat:

 

[RyanL]

Her: “We need to preach a message of inclusion. We need to stop condemning people for their lifestyles and welcome them into the fold. Jesus hung out with sinners, you know.”

Me: “Yup, Jesus hung out with sinners alright. He also hung out with Judas. What does that tell you?”

On Skepticism:
“You know, for all their preaching and book writing about Skepticism, you would think the Skeptics actually believed what they taught to be true.”

On “Open Minded-ness”:
“I believe in an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.” - G. K. Chesterton

On Original Sin:
“You don’t believe in Original Sin? You’ve obviously never lived in New York City.” (Paraphrase of Fr. Benedict Groeschel)

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[jaz1976]

I believe this is from St Athanasius ( I could be wrong):

“Where Peter is; there is the Church”.

And of course, look at my signature line for another great one-liner.