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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Apologetics seems, in practice, to demand far more than a knowledge of “the basics”. These may be enough for the individual who has received them; but if such a person is going to instruct others, he will need a thorough understanding of far more than the basics.
God doesn’t call the qualified, He qualifies the called…Peace…teachccd
The OP is surely right to ask, though. Zeal without knowledge can be very harmful.
An apologist takes on himself (& for some reason, it usually is “him”) the serious responsibility of speaking up for the Catholic faith - not for his private theology, or his ideas, or his uncertainties or biases, but for the authentic teaching of the Catholic Church. If such a person has no understanding of how Catholic teachings fit together, or no understanding of how doctrine & other elements - the Liturgy, for instance - fit together, such a person is very poorly qualified to be an apologist: because one cannot hand on to others what one has not oneself received.As for God’s not calling the qualified - what has that to do with apologetics ? True as that is in its context, one of the traps zealous people sometimes fall into is that of what might be called “ultra-supernaturalism”. This is the idea that leads people to go into their exams without having revised, on the plea that God will tell them the answers on the day; so that to revise, would be a sign of lack of faith. Or else Christians with a medical condition sometimes ignore the need to take medication - for the same reason. But faith in God does not make up for not revising for exams, & people who throw away their medication sometimes die as a result. So, faith in Christ does not dispense us from using secondary means, such as revision & doctors; & neither does faith in Christ mean we can do without revising & “book-learning” if we want to be apologists.
The academic study of theology has the great merit of being many-sided; & Catholicism is certainly many-sided. Apologetics as practiced on the Internet too often lacks exactly that quality of many-sidedness, which is a serious flaw. Maybe one way to lessen the danger of poor apologetics would be for apologists to be licensed by their bishops: some sort of control over what they say seems needed, as much for their benefit as for that of those who read what is on their sites.
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teachccd
Guest
Point well taken. Apologetics is serious business and definitely requires someone with experience and research adhering to that spirituality and the personality necessary to teach. I never meant to imply that an uninformed person should teach apologetics. I am merely stating that it is not a necessity that one is a theologian to teach apologetics. One must be failrly well versed in Scripture, be extremely familiar with the Catechism of the Catholic Church and other official Church documents. While this could take years, I have found that for myself the zeal presupposes the studying and the combination resulted in my teaching now for the archdiocese.
So, in closing, we must take our faith very seriously and we must also teach our faith as such. There is no room for error when it comes to guiding souls. We are instruments of Christ and that is a heavy responsibility. Anytime before I teach any class I always research the subject as thorougly as I can and many times I will double check with a priest, perhaps, before delivering a session. And if there is ever anything that I am not clear about I relay that to the learners and move to further research for a later response.
What does God not calling the qualified have anything to do with apologetics?? I don’t know. Maybe ask Moses or any of the Apostles. I doubt that any of them were qualified as they were called…
God Bless…teachccd
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COPLAND_3
Guest
Ron Conte
I think converts have an advantage over many cradle Catholics because usually converts come to the Church in search for that Church that Jesus Christ established, and they find it in the Catholic Church. Whereas many cradle Catholics never seem to know what they have. Converts usually come to the Church with a great deal of investigation under their belt, whereas cradle Catholics usually don’t.
I can relate to Hahn because while I spent a few years loving the Church from the outside and very passionate about the Truth of the Faith, I would try to talk to life long Catholics and they would usually look at me with that “deer in the head-lights” look. I was so discouraged by the lack of zeal and ignorance of Catholics that I see the need for the mission that Sean has shown a concern for.
I understand your concern. The Catholic Faith goes much more deep than anything because it is from God. But the basics for understanding the Faith and sharing it with others does not require a PHD, but it does require reverence. Too many people will not attempt to try to learn the Faith if they are lead to believe that you have to be a genius. But if people can be edified and shown simple ways to grasping deep truths then I believe that is a very good thing, as long as it stays faithful to orthodoxy.
I think converts have an advantage over many cradle Catholics because usually converts come to the Church in search for that Church that Jesus Christ established, and they find it in the Catholic Church. Whereas many cradle Catholics never seem to know what they have. Converts usually come to the Church with a great deal of investigation under their belt, whereas cradle Catholics usually don’t.
I can relate to Hahn because while I spent a few years loving the Church from the outside and very passionate about the Truth of the Faith, I would try to talk to life long Catholics and they would usually look at me with that “deer in the head-lights” look. I was so discouraged by the lack of zeal and ignorance of Catholics that I see the need for the mission that Sean has shown a concern for.
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teachccd
Guest
Very well said…Most pewsitters would do well with a convert who longed for what so many take for granted…And I agree that one does not need a PhD or to be a genius to share your faith with others.
My sentiments exactly…
teachccd
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Ron_Conte
Guest
The OP seems to have abandoned this thread, and hopefully his idea as well.
One need not have a Ph.D. to teach Catholicism, nor need one be a theologian per se.
However, the OP suggested that he, having been an atheist or agnostic for most of his life, and having just joined the Church (apparently completing RCIA) in Easter of 2007, that now, in mid 2008, he was qualified to teach the faith, and not only to teach, but to assemble a group of apologists to teach, whom he would oversee.
If the OP does eventually set up such a website, I look forward to reading and refuting its many errors.
As for Scott Hahn, I don’t want to take this thread off topic, but New Oxford Review has several articles pointing out problems in his theology, including refering to the Holy Spirit with various feminine terms:
newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=0902-notes-burn
One need not have a Ph.D. to teach Catholicism, nor need one be a theologian per se.
However, the OP suggested that he, having been an atheist or agnostic for most of his life, and having just joined the Church (apparently completing RCIA) in Easter of 2007, that now, in mid 2008, he was qualified to teach the faith, and not only to teach, but to assemble a group of apologists to teach, whom he would oversee.
If the OP does eventually set up such a website, I look forward to reading and refuting its many errors.
As for Scott Hahn, I don’t want to take this thread off topic, but New Oxford Review has several articles pointing out problems in his theology, including refering to the Holy Spirit with various feminine terms:
newoxfordreview.org/note.jsp?did=0902-notes-burn
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teachccd
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Yup! The OP is gone. Another Catholic squashed because of his zeal for his faith. Who else can we get rid of ??
And this thread is already derailed. And this is my last post in this thread but I still find it amazing that you bash Scott Hahn with no details except for some biased article. It must be nice to know so much and belittle so greatly…Sorry OP. I pray that you try again…teachccd
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COPLAND_3
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teachccd
I don’t think this thread has been a bad thing. Scrutiny will only make Sean and others work that much harder. I know Ron Conte has the best interest for Catholicism, even though some of us may not see exactly eye to eye with him.
As for Ron’s view on Scott Hahn, that is his opinion, not mine. All I know is that Hahn has helped contribute to the deepening of many peoples Faith, which the Catholic Church can sure use. Hahn is not the Pope, just a fallible theologian who I happen to appreciate as well as many others.
So there is no need to worry, I have a sneaky suspicion that Sean is not so thinned skinned to let criticism get the best of him, but if he was then that would be a good indication that he needs to postpone his idea for a later date.
Take care!
I don’t think this thread has been a bad thing. Scrutiny will only make Sean and others work that much harder. I know Ron Conte has the best interest for Catholicism, even though some of us may not see exactly eye to eye with him.
As for Ron’s view on Scott Hahn, that is his opinion, not mine. All I know is that Hahn has helped contribute to the deepening of many peoples Faith, which the Catholic Church can sure use. Hahn is not the Pope, just a fallible theologian who I happen to appreciate as well as many others.
So there is no need to worry, I have a sneaky suspicion that Sean is not so thinned skinned to let criticism get the best of him, but if he was then that would be a good indication that he needs to postpone his idea for a later date.
Take care!
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teachccd
Guest
Very well said and I appreciate the encouragement. I’ve personally met Scott Hahn and heard him on numerous occasions. I’ve also witnessed the lines of people thanking him because of what he has done for them to enter the faith. All of his books are recommended by Bishops and are read by many upstanding priests. So, yes, I also find Scott Hahn’s work to be a great contribution to our faith.
Believe me I know how scrutiny works. As I went through a theological and catechetical certification process I was beat down constantly. But through my perseverance I continued and completed the course. It does make one stronger but that is because I already had a good foundation. Had I been new to the faith there is no telling what I might have done.
I wish Sean the best of luck and I hope that he does further his education and persues his vision. We do need more people like him. Again thank you for your post. God Bless…teachccd
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COPLAND_3
Guest
Now this is not directed towards Ron Conte or anybody else, but only a general observation that can be applied to religion and politics, etc. So please, anyone reading this do not think it is directed to you, because it is not, only something that I see in our world today. I figured I’d take the thread to a new level of derailment.
I see a defeatist mentality out there that seems to discourage the people in general from being informed and becoming enlightened and engaged in very important things, and sometimes the pessimists will make people think that those things are just too complicated for most and they want you to let them do the thinking for you. I think sometimes it is a way to have a power play over people. But you have those out there who have had a pivot point in their lives and actually care deeply about those important things and want to not only deepen their own understanding of it but also help others to be enlightened too, while the ones who want people to have limited understanding usually come out vemently to oppose those voices who seek to edify.
And I see so many people out there who are not interested in truth. I don’t know if it is the fat and happy society that we live in where we have so many distractions, or what. I see so many people out there who are content with empty spiritualism like New Age, it just gives them a little spiritual side so they can feel good about themselves instead of being interested in the fate of their souls.
I know that I have taken a thread that was in derailment and sent it into outer space. Just a few thoughts that have been on my mind.
I see a defeatist mentality out there that seems to discourage the people in general from being informed and becoming enlightened and engaged in very important things, and sometimes the pessimists will make people think that those things are just too complicated for most and they want you to let them do the thinking for you. I think sometimes it is a way to have a power play over people. But you have those out there who have had a pivot point in their lives and actually care deeply about those important things and want to not only deepen their own understanding of it but also help others to be enlightened too, while the ones who want people to have limited understanding usually come out vemently to oppose those voices who seek to edify.
And I see so many people out there who are not interested in truth. I don’t know if it is the fat and happy society that we live in where we have so many distractions, or what. I see so many people out there who are content with empty spiritualism like New Age, it just gives them a little spiritual side so they can feel good about themselves instead of being interested in the fate of their souls.
I know that I have taken a thread that was in derailment and sent it into outer space. Just a few thoughts that have been on my mind.
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teachccd
Guest
Thank you for describing me and my many situations. Funny how when you try not to attribute this to anyone the “anyone” finds himself in bold print…God Bless…teachccd
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teachccd
Guest
I do believe that this thread is dead…but it was enlightening…
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Christy_Beth
Guest
Not quite dead yet. Sorry I didn’t jump back in earlier. I’m not sure that the idea has been derailed or beaten to death. I’ve already said that I had a lot of zeal when I entered the church. I still do, but back then I had more zeal than understanding. I once got into an email debate with a man who said he used to be catholic. That debate got me to study the faith more in order to know that what I was giving would be correct teachings.
I know that there are many catholic web sites out there. I think this idea can, maybe, tie all (or most) of these together. As I understand this idea (I’ve been in email contact with Sean) it would start out as a bare bone ministry. From there, with help from the other sites and other people, it can grow.
Please don’t give up this idea just now. Many of you have great ideas. I dare say that all of you do if you really think about it. Don’t let this divide us.
I know that there are many catholic web sites out there. I think this idea can, maybe, tie all (or most) of these together. As I understand this idea (I’ve been in email contact with Sean) it would start out as a bare bone ministry. From there, with help from the other sites and other people, it can grow.
Please don’t give up this idea just now. Many of you have great ideas. I dare say that all of you do if you really think about it. Don’t let this divide us.
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teachccd
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I am totally with you here!!
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COPLAND_3
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teachccd
We share a lot in common as well as some others. It was sort of late last night when I posted that last post of mine and I went way off track and aired out some frustrations that I have been kicking around, not with this thread by any means, but with some issues in general, and they just leaked out here.
Over the years, ever since I have devoted my life to God, I have found that there are many people out there that care little or nothing about truth. I guess that really bugs me because I find it to be what matters most, especially with eternal things. I am one of those that if I am believing something wrong then show me what is correct and convince me of it and I’ll make those necessary changes to be right. I think one of the greatest challenges that we face is trying to share our faith with a culture that likes being ignorant about things that require intellectual honesty. There is nothing better than when you run onto someone who is open to our faith and has a hunger and thirst for truth. Those are few and far between. I guess that is why you see a lot of Protestant churches out there that are transforming their places of ‘worship’ to places of entertainment, going from a congregation to a social club. Those not interested in Worship will trade it off for entertainment.
But it is very encouraging to see those like you and others on here that share the same passions as I do!
We share a lot in common as well as some others. It was sort of late last night when I posted that last post of mine and I went way off track and aired out some frustrations that I have been kicking around, not with this thread by any means, but with some issues in general, and they just leaked out here.
Over the years, ever since I have devoted my life to God, I have found that there are many people out there that care little or nothing about truth. I guess that really bugs me because I find it to be what matters most, especially with eternal things. I am one of those that if I am believing something wrong then show me what is correct and convince me of it and I’ll make those necessary changes to be right. I think one of the greatest challenges that we face is trying to share our faith with a culture that likes being ignorant about things that require intellectual honesty. There is nothing better than when you run onto someone who is open to our faith and has a hunger and thirst for truth. Those are few and far between. I guess that is why you see a lot of Protestant churches out there that are transforming their places of ‘worship’ to places of entertainment, going from a congregation to a social club. Those not interested in Worship will trade it off for entertainment.
But it is very encouraging to see those like you and others on here that share the same passions as I do!
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Christy_Beth
Guest
The one thing I’ve noticed since entering into the church is a lot of apathy. Indiffernce. And I’ve found a couple of others have seen the same problem. One in particular one is a man who is a cradle catholic. The two of us have been talking about trying to get something going to combat this. But it’s going to be a long up hill battle. 
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COPLAND_3
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Christy Beth
You got that right! I don’t want to sound negative, but I am afraid what might have to happen is persecution. That usually will get Christians to think more about God. Not the kind of persecution where people just snarl or laugh at us, but the kind of persecution that separates the wheat from the tares. But let us pray for mercy and a revival amongst the Church!
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Christy_Beth
Guest
Growing up, as a protestant, I heard a few “hell fire and damnation” preaching. Scare tactics. I’ve gotten to thinking that that is exactly what is needed here. Wake the people up to the danger of sliding straight into hell. In Revelations, towards the beginning there are “seven letters to the seven churches.” To one, there was the warning of being lukewarm. And that’s what I see in churches these days. I just want to scream at them, “don’t you know what you’re doing?”
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COPLAND_3
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Christy Beth
I know exactly how you feel. But I also felt that way too when I was a Protestant. To me it seems to be that many Christians have allowed society to shape them and their conscience, and unfortunately for many Protestant denominations they have allowed society and political parties to shape their belief systems. At least the Catholic Church is the lone one standing who has not caved in. Not to say that many Catholics as individuals have not caved.
Have you had the impious ‘Catholics’ thrown in your face before by non-Catholics? I get that every now and then. And I am quick to let them know that I do not make excuses for those ‘Catholics’ who choose to live like Hell, because that is not Catholicism.
I know exactly how you feel. But I also felt that way too when I was a Protestant. To me it seems to be that many Christians have allowed society to shape them and their conscience, and unfortunately for many Protestant denominations they have allowed society and political parties to shape their belief systems. At least the Catholic Church is the lone one standing who has not caved in. Not to say that many Catholics as individuals have not caved.
Have you had the impious ‘Catholics’ thrown in your face before by non-Catholics? I get that every now and then. And I am quick to let them know that I do not make excuses for those ‘Catholics’ who choose to live like Hell, because that is not Catholicism.
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SilentKnight
Guest
Very true in some arenas, COP. Indeed, just as zeal without knowledge can be harmful, so, I believe, can knowledge without zeal. Would that there were just a few (more?) such individuals (those with a great deal of zeal for God but with less knowledge of wordly things) within the U.S Bishop’s Conference…
SK
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