Apostasy in the Reorganized Mormons and LDS Mormons

[Alma147]

The RLDS do not view Joseph as a fallen prophet. Where did you get that from?

The first edition of their official newspaper. From the “Saints Herald,” volume I, page 9, in a paragraph titled “polygamy” it says: “The death of the prophet is one fact that has been realized, although he abhorred and repented of this iniquity before his death. This branch of the subject we shall leave to some of our brethren, who are qualified to explain it satisfactorily.” Later on, in the same article it says, “He caused the revelation on the subject to be burned, and when he voluntarily came to Nauvoo and resigned himself into the arms of his enemies he said that he was going to Carthage to die. At that time he also said that if it had not been for that accursed spiritual wife doctrine, he would not have come to that.”

The fact that they reject all of his revelations from the Nauvoo period also is a pretty good indication that they believed he was a fallen prophet. I was in a meeting about 25 years ago with the RLDS Church Historian. We asked him how the RLDS Church dealt with the fact that they had denied for years that Joseph Smith was the person who introduced plural marriage into the Church. He said that they (RLDS) were comfortable with the doctrines and practices of the Kirtland period but not the Nauvoo. They consequently adopted a policy of simply ignoring Joseph Smith’s teachings and revelations from 1839 onward.

Alma

 

[Allweather]

Alma, when you say “they” in reference to the RLDS, are you referring to some central authority in that church? Do “they” have a living prophet the same as the LDS?

Ultimately, what I’m getting at, is what is the RLDS final authority when it comes to making judgements like whether JS was or is a fallen prophet?

 

[Publisher]

The RLDS now Community of Christ as a body has never embraced the “fallen prophet” belief…some in the church have taught it…but it’s not “official” doctrine.

I believe the Church of Christ, Temple Lot does embrace the idea though…they reject the Doctrine and Covenants as scripture…they use to embrace the Book of Commandments but they’ve moved away from that in the last several years from what my RLDS friends tell me.

The Community of Christ do have a “prophet”…Steve Veacy(???) or something to that effect.

There’s a lot of “historical myth” floating around…the Mormon Church has their version and the RLDS have theirs…I believe the historian of the RLDS church came under some fire for wanting to “de-myth” the history…many RLDS aren’t comfortable with the “revised history”…they like the white-washed myth…like their LDS cousins.

 

[Alma147]

Alma, when you say “they” in reference to the RLDS, are you referring to some central authority in that church? Do “they” have a living prophet the same as the LDS?

The RLDS Historian, Richard Howard said, “We” and I guess I have to assume that meant either the church hierarchy or the RLDS historians. They do have a first presidency and quorum of 12 apostles similar to the LDS Church and their prophet until very recently had to be a lineal descendant of Joseph Smith. Their prophet previous to the current one said that he preferred to believe that instead of a prophet over the people, that they had a “prophetic people.” Their apostles do not serve for life and their prophet has in the past resigned as he desired.

Ultimately, what I’m getting at, is what is the RLDS final authority when it comes to making judgements like whether JS was or is a fallen prophet?

I think the position has been one of arguing the alternative. They have historically said, “Joseph Smith couldn’t have been involved in polygamy or he was a false prophet.” They’ve had to modify that perspective in the light of history. I think, though, that if you were to ask the CoC president if Joseph Smith was a prophet to the end of his life, he’d probably say no.

Alma

 

[GIMJ]

Well, GIMJ, perhaps you could specifically identify what is hooey in what I’ve written. I’m willing to back up what I’ve said with lots of documentation. Could you be specific?

Sure, no problem. But because I’m lazy, I’ll choose this easiest example of misinformation:

It didn’t come up for at least 10 years.

I’m in no mood to pick apart the other posts.

 

[Alma147]

Sure, no problem. But because I’m lazy, I’ll choose this easiest example of misinformation:

I’m in no mood to pick apart the other posts.

Okay, my comment was in response to the following question: "So JS III was never thought to be nor considered himself successor after JS JR died?

It didn’t come up for at least 10 years."

That Joseph III might ultimately become Joseph’s successor was a possibility as early as 1834, but having him actually succeed wasn’t a consideration for at least 10 years because he was only 11 years old in 1844. Virtually everyone who promoted Joseph III as successor in 1860 claimed that James Strang was the rightful successor in 1844–including Emma. No one suggested that Joseph III actually succeed for at least 10 years. You can suggest that my claim is hooey by mentioning it, but it’s really incumbent upon you to demonstrate that someone did say Joseph III should succeed his father before that time.

Alma

 

[Alma147]

I’m in no mood to pick apart the other posts.

Meaning you don’t feel the need to back up what you assert?

Alma

 

[Allweather]

Alma, you wrote:

““That Joseph III might ultimately become Joseph’s successor was a possibility as early as 1834, but having him actually succeed wasn’t a consideration for at least 10 years because he was only 11 years old in 1844.””

In 1834 the boy had just been born. Someone within the LDS or within the Smith family, or both, had evidently been discussing this, according to your own statement here, as early as the boy’s birthday. Based only on what you’ve written (I know nothing esle about this subject) I don’t see how you can claim that the issue of JSIII succeeding his dad wasn’t under consideration prior to 1854 or 1860.

My question is, why would it even enter anyone’s mind that there be a family succession of prophets? Was Mormonism viewed as a sort of monarchy by Joseph Smith Jr.?

What is there about Mormon teachings that lead them to believe that there is an inherited prophetic gift within the Smith family?

 

[Publisher]

According to Joseph Smith III he remembered his father placing his hands on his head during one of JS Jr.'s incarcerations and designating him his sucessor. Accordinig to RLDS history many of the “factions” agknowledged Joseph III…Brigham even invited Jospeh III and Emma west…but Emma didn’t like Brigham…at all…

 

[Alma147]

Alma, you wrote:
In 1834 the boy had just been born. Someone within the LDS or within the Smith family, or both, had evidently been discussing this, according to your own statement here, as early as the boy’s birthday. Based only on what you’ve written (I know nothing else about this subject) I don’t see how you can claim that the issue of JSIII succeeding his dad wasn’t under consideration prior to 1854 or 1860.

During Joseph Smith’s lifetime, he had made provision several times for a successor, including Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Hyrum Smith, and either of his sons Joseph III or David (born after Smith’s death.) The premise of Mormon theology regarding a restoration is that God established the Church by ordaining Joseph Smith, and he ordained others. Joseph Smith stipulated in his revelations that no one could lead the church unless he was ordained to do so by those who had that authority. While there are many such passages, this one is representative: “Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

In 1844, Joseph III had never been ordained to the priesthood. That, together with his age meant that even if he were to succeed his father, it could only occur when he reached an appropriate age and after he had been ordained by the heads of the Church. I don’t doubt that even Brigham Young would have been willing to pave the way for JSIII had JSIII been willing to accept and live by the rule of the Church—as turned out to be the case with Joseph Smith’s nephew, who did succeed to the presidency of the LDS Church (as did his son after him.)

My question is, why would it even enter anyone’s mind that there be a family succession of prophets? Was Mormonism viewed as a sort of monarchy by Joseph Smith Jr.?

A couple of circumstances create a scenario that make patrilineal hierarchy valid. The Old Testament patriarchs are viewed as prophets in Mormonism and their priesthood leadership follows such a pattern: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph. Additionally, Joseph Smith taught that there was a patriarchal priesthood order that did descend by family beginning with Adam and continuing to his own family. The LDS Church maintained a Church Patriarch who was a descendant of Joseph Smith Sr. until recent times (and it may continue after the current emeritus patriarch Eldred Smith passes away.

What is there about Mormon teachings that lead them to believe that there is an inherited prophetic gift within the Smith family?

See my previous paragraph…

Alma

 

[GIMJ]

You can suggest that my claim is hooey by mentioning it, but it’s really incumbent upon you to demonstrate that someone did say Joseph III should succeed his father before that time.

Alma

Well, I was just about to, but you seem to have done it instead.

 

[Allweather]

During Joseph Smith’s lifetime, he had made provision several times for a successor, including Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Hyrum Smith, and either of his sons Joseph III or David (born after Smith’s death.)

So, the subject of Joseph Smith III being a successor DID come up, as you say, “during Joseph Smith’s lifetime.” I don’t suppose we know when.

The premise of Mormon theology regarding a restoration is that God established the Church by ordaining Joseph Smith, and he ordained others.

So, the ordination process begins with Joseph Smith Jr and flows from him.

Joseph Smith stipulated in his revelations that no one could lead the church unless he was ordained to do so by those who had that authority. While there are many such passages, this one is representative: “Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.

Is this Joseph Smith speaking if “his” gospel and church, or is this being attributed to God?

In 1844, Joseph III had never been ordained to the priesthood. That, together with his age meant that even if he were to succeed his father, it could only occur when he reached an appropriate age and after he had been ordained by the heads of the Church.

What do LDS leaders consider an appropriate age?

I don’t doubt that even Brigham Young would have been willing to pave the way for JSIII had JSIII been willing to accept and live by the rule of the Church—as turned out to be the case with Joseph Smith’s nephew, who did succeed to the presidency of the LDS Church (as did his son after him.)

What rule of the church did JSIII refuse to live by?

Joseph Smith taught that there was a patriarchal priesthood order that did descend by family beginning with Adam and continuing to his own family. The LDS Church maintained a Church Patriarch who was a descendant of Joseph Smith Sr. until recent times (and it may continue after the current emeritus patriarch Eldred Smith passes away.

Interesting. Does this Church Patriarch descendent of Joseph Smith Sr. have any special duties? How many descendents of Joseph Smith Sr. are there living?

Thanks for the information.

 

[Alma147]

So, the subject of Joseph Smith III being a successor DID come up, as you say, “during Joseph Smith’s lifetime.” I don’t suppose we know when.

There are a couple of indications that the subject was broached–some more substantial than others. Joseph Smith III claimed that he was “blessed” to succeed his father in 1839. This is probably the most reliable instance. Lucy Smith (Joseph III’s grandmother) recalled in 1845 a blessing her husband gave the child in 1836 stating that “when he was of age” he would be able to complete the work of his father. So, even though the subject had come up, it’s like talking about a will, rather than executing one–or like when Alexander Haig said, “I’m in control here” when Reagan was shot.

So, the ordination process begins with Joseph Smith Jr and flows from him.

Actually, we believe it starts with Jesus to Peter and then to Joseph Smith Jr. and then flows from him.

Is this Joseph Smith speaking if “his” gospel and church, or is this being attributed to God?

It’s being attributed to Christ. (D&C 42:1)

What do LDS leaders consider an appropriate age?

It gets older all the time. During Joseph Smith’s lifetime, very few teenagers were ordained to the priesthood, most men were adults. I think I’d be on safe ground to say that a man would not have been considered eligible to lead the entire Church without being ordained to the Melchizedek as well as married.

What rule of the church did JSIII refuse to live by?

Submission to the leadership of the Church to gather with the body of the Church, serve a mission and receive the ordinances of the temple.

Interesting. Does this Church Patriarch descendant of Joseph Smith Sr. have any special duties? How many descendants of Joseph Smith Sr. are there living?

Not at this time – he’s over 100 years old. In the past, the patriarch to the Church gave patriarchal blessings to people who didn’t live in an area where there was an ordained patriarch. With the explosive growth of the Church in the last 30 years, that responsibility was given to others.

There are probably thousands of JS Sr’s descendants in the LDS Church. I personally know quite a few. Not including Joseph Smith Jr., three have been presidents of the LDS Church and another is currently in the quorum of 12 apostles.

Thanks for the information.

Any time.

Alma

 

[johnnycatholic]

Alma, does this mean that the rlds church viewed Joseph smith as a fallen prophet due to his doctrine on polygamy? If so why doesn’t the lds church view him this way?

 

[Asa_Ben_Judah]

Yep!

Just quickly run through this thread and one thing has not been noted. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a worldwide church and one of the fastest growing denominations. I read this in The Catholic Herald published in the UK! Also the Community of Christ is nowhere near as successful in its missionary efforts.

There is a lot of hubris (overbearing pride or presumption) on this thread, not appropriate for spirit filled Christians regardless of the label.

The day is coming when the true church will be comprised of those who worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

 

[Asa_Ben_Judah]

Alma, does this mean that the rlds church viewed Joseph smith as a fallen prophet due to his doctrine on polygamy? If so why doesn’t the lds church view him this way?

The answer is NO, Joseph Smith was matryred for his teachings and beliefs and hence when a charismatic leader is taken away a vacuum is created and in the case of the Latter-day Saints a schism was created in which several offshoots appeared, the majority have dwindled but the RLDS, or The Community of Christ has remained. The Church of Jesus Christ lead by Brigham Young eventually migrated west to Utah and is the most successful of the two groups.

 

[Allweather]

The answer is NO, Joseph Smith was matryred for his teachings and beliefs and hence when a charismatic leader is taken away a vacuum is created and in the case of the Latter-day Saints a schism was created in which several offshoots appeared, the majority have dwindled but the RLDS, or The Community of Christ has remained. The Church of Jesus Christ lead by Brigham Young eventually migrated west to Utah and is the most successful of the two groups.

But that isn’t what the question asked. The question, posed by johnnycatholic, was this:

Alma, does this mean that the rlds church viewed Joseph smith as a fallen prophet due to his doctrine on polygamy? If so why doesn’t the lds church view him this way?

It didn’t ask why Joseph Smith was killed. It asked why, if the RLDS considers him to be a fallen (as in disgraced or defrocked) prophet due to his polygamous meanderings, the Salt Lake City branch doesn’t also. Alma doesn’t appear to want to reply to this, or he is busy elsewhere. What do YOU think?

 

[Allweather]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a worldwide church and one of the fastest growing denominations. I read this in The Catholic Herald published in the UK! Also the Community of Christ is nowhere near as successful in its missionary efforts.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses make the same claim, and probably have as much evidence to back it up. The Seventh Day Adventists are larger by several million, and are, like the JW’s and Mormons, “worldwide” churches. Matter of fact, these same “facts” can be attributed to many sects and cults, most of which were born in the strange religious brew of 19th century America. These “facts” whether true or not do not in and of themselves mean that these sects and cults are “true.” None of them are compatible with each other theologically, are competing with each other feverishly for converts, and all are strongly opposed to the inconvenient fact of the Catholic Church, which rebukes them for their odd teachings.

And BTW, don’t be misled through clever marketing schemes that obscure the facts. The Mormons have a terrible retention rate, probably no more than 5% of baptized converts. There are probably no more than 4 to 5 million self-identified Mormons in the United States, and though they claim most Mormons now live outside the U.S., the number claimed is surely far higher than the actual number of practicing, self-identifying TBMs. Keep in mind that Mormonism is more like a corporation than a religion. It is a convert machine which has as its main goal the harvesting of money and workhours from its converted worker bees, most of whom are taught little, and know little, about Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, RLDS, or any of their fantastic religious ideas.

The day is coming when the true church will be comprised of those who worship God in Spirit and in Truth.

That day is today, brother. That Church is the Church Jesus established upon the Apostles and the divine authority he vested in them, and that is the Catholic Church.

 

[Allweather]

There are probably thousands of JS Sr’s descendants in the LDS Church. I personally know quite a few. Not including Joseph Smith Jr., three have been presidents of the LDS Church and another is currently in the quorum of 12 apostles. Alma

I just realized that, with all of Joseph’s Wives, he must’ve had dozens of children. Is it known clearly how many children he actually sired by these women?

 

[Publisher]

Alma, does this mean that the rlds church viewed Joseph smith as a fallen prophet due to his doctrine on polygamy? If so why doesn’t the lds church view him this way?

The “official” RLDS belief is that Joseph Smith Jr. was not a “fallen” prophet…that view is held by the Church of Christ Temple Lot. The LDS claim the RLDS church believes it…but 'officially" they do not.