Apostle Paul & Muslims, again.

[inJESUS]

Paul is the only one who have to do everything with Christianity. He is the founder of it. When Jesus (pbuh) said, he came to fulfill the law, Paul said, Jesus abolished the law.

When Jesus (pbuh) said he came to preach the good news of God, Paul said Jesus came to die for us.

When Jesus (pbuh) said all the is to be followed, Paul said, it is invalid.

And they were not supposed to teach against what Jesus (pbuh) taught. When circumsicion was a law and Jesus (pbuh) asked to keep it, how could they teach against it? When eating swine was prohibited by law and Jesus (pbuh) asked to follow the law, how could they teach against it? I know, you will have your own reasonings to go against Jesus (pbuh), but you are programmed to believe what is taught in church.

Here Khalfan or any other Muslim, let’s discuss Jesus and the Law

Khalfan, kindly prove every single word you uttered here.

 

[inJESUS]

Khalfan, the thread is mainly for you

 

[dolphinlove]

Khalfan, the thread is mainly for you

9 days later and still no replies… interesting…

 

[Montalban]

Here Khalfan or any other Muslim, let’s discuss Jesus and the Law

Khalfan, kindly prove every single word you uttered here.

I did a quick on-line search of the Koran and Hadith, and the name Paul doesn’t come up in any of them (unless he’s under a different name in) I can’t see any basis within their own lexicons for this accusation

 

[inJESUS]

I did a quick on-line search of the Koran and Hadith, and the name Paul doesn’t come up in any of them (unless he’s under a different name in) I can’t see any basis within their own lexicons for this accusation

i don’t know if he is mentioned by name either in tradition or interpretations, but i do know his words were quoted by Muhammad as allah’s word without mentioning where Muhammad took them from.

 

[Montalban]

i don’t know if he is mentioned by name either in tradition or interpretations, but i do know his words were quoted by Muhammad as allah’s word without mentioning where Muhammad took them from.

By the way, in case people don’t believe me, they can check this searchable Hadith site…
usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

Just be sure to check all the boxes next to the particular Hadiths you want to search under.

And to search the Koran, go to here

 

[paarsurrey]

I did a quick on-line search of the Koran and Hadith, and the name Paul doesn’t come up in any of them (unless he’s under a different name in) I can’t see any basis within their own lexicons for this accusation

Hi

Quran mentions and respects Jesus, his monther Mary and the twelve apostles of Jesus, all good for them. Paul is not among the twelve, you know. When Jesus and Mary migrated to India and some of his disciples also went there, no need of mentioning anybody else, as none else mattered.

Thanks

 

[dolphinlove]

Hi

Quran mentions and respects Jesus, his monther Mary and the twelve apostles of Jesus, all good for them. Paul is not among the twelve, you know. When Jesus and Mary migrated to India and some of his disciples also went there, no need of mentioning anybody else, as none else mattered.

Thanks

Paarsurrey… dear sweet ole Paarsurrey,
Please answer this simple question for me.
Do you understand Christians believe Jesus died on the cross and that he didnt die in India?

 

[Montalban]

paarsurrey misses the point… again!

Some Moslems have claimed Paul changed the message of Christ.

Where do they get that idea?

Paul’s not mentioned in the Koran, or Hadith (unless under a different name).

So where did they get the idea that it was Paul who corrupted the message?

Obviously whatever their source it’s not that reliable - as the Koran or Hadith

 

[dolphinlove]

paarsurrey misses the point… again!

Some Moslems have claimed Paul changed the message of Christ.

Where do they get that idea?

Paul’s not mentioned in the Koran, or Hadith (unless under a different name).

So where did they get the idea that it was Paul who corrupted the message?

Obviously whatever their source it’s not that reliable - as the Koran or Hadith

Mohammed must have said it in his sleep or something…

 

[Montalban]

Mohammed must have said it in his sleep or something…

Was his last utterence “Suckers!” or is that someone else?

 

[dolphinlove]

Was his last utterence “Suckers!” or is that someone else?

 

[Kadaveri]

The Qur’an does however say that the followers of Jesus (as) adopted practises and teachings that God did not ordain for them, so that’s the primarily inspiration of some Muslims seeking for such things in the writings of Paul.

I’m really not understanding this claim by some of the Christians here that if there is no mention of Paul in the Qur’an or the Sihah al-Sittah, that this means Muslims have no legs to stand on. Use of the Bible alone is enough to make such arguments. Take Romans 9:33 for example where Paul blatantly misquotes Isaiah 28:16 so as to legitimise his teachings of the law being bondage and Jesus’ death on the cross freed humanity from it.

*As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone, that causes men to stumble, and a rock that makes them fall; and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” *(Romans 9:33)

*So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay in Zion a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed. *(Isaiah 28:16)

Why is it ok for Paul to totally reverse the meanings of such verses to justify his beliefs about Jesus? Surely a stumbling stone that causes men to fall isn’t the same thing as a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation.

 

[Montalban]

The Qur’an does however say that the followers of Jesus (as) adopted practises and teachings that God did not ordain for them, so that’s the primarily inspiration of some Muslims seeking for such things in the writings of Paul.

So it’s innuendo?

I’m really not understanding this claim by some of the Christians here that if there is no mention of Paul in the Qur’an or the Sihah al-Sittah, that this means Muslims have no legs to stand on.

The argument “Paul changed the teaching” has no leg to stand on.

You *might *argue “The teaching that Paul taught reflects something other than Islam as revealed to/by Jesus” But given you’ve no evidence that HE CHANGED IT from your own chief sources; the Koran and hadith, then you can’t heap blame on him - and this is just looking at the bear argument - without even going in to the arguments about whether in fact what Paul taught *was *a distortion

Assuming again that what he taught was different - then the change could have happened before he converted. You just assume it was Paul, and blame him… based on guess-work.

Use of the Bible alone is enough to make such arguments.

Guess again.

 

[Montalban]

Kadaveri, even after pointing out the fact your own sources have no evidence for this you then make a mistake of turning to the Bible to see if there’s a change.

If you can find a difference between the teaching of Christ and the Apostles (+Paul, and the others) then you’d still be faced by the fact that this would not prove that Paul changed it.

As noted, even if we accept that he taught somethign different, there’s nothing to say he is responsible for the change.

It’s just another Islamic myth you’re happy to proceed with.

And you’re on dangerous ground if you start using the Bible to argue that Paul did preach a different message.

You’re on dangerous ground because you’re then limiting your argument to
a) sola scriptura - a doctrine the majority of Christians don’t accept
and then
b) interpreting the Bible as you think it should be interpreted.

 

[Montalban]

As we see Kadaveri’s got no argument based on evidence from his own holy books.

Oddly he seeks out evidence for a Moslem claim - in the Bible.

The Koran and Hadith, silent on this matter, aren’t as all-encompassing as he might have supposed.

He should have at the very least stuck with the argument “The message was changed”, rather than naming a culprit that his own books don’t mention.

Let’s now actually attend to the issue “Is the message as TAUGHT by Paul different from the message as taught by Jesus”

We can either use the Koran or the Bible. The Koran’s evidence is that it did happen, because it did, because it did - circular evidence - the Koran says it, so it *must be *true

Or, we can look to the Bible. The problem for you here is if you claim that the Gospel message is already distorted.

How would you go about proving that the message of Jesus was different before the Gospels set down what he said? (go back to the Koran? ) What we’re going to find here is that Moslems make claims that are devoid of logic - the only basis you’d have for this would be to fall back on the Koran and offer circular-reasoning.

If you want to say that the Gospel message was not distorted, then you’re in trouble too. For we can look to the Bible and see
They are one
I John 5:7
“There are those that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one”

And we can look to evidence AFTER the Bible
Ignatius’ Epistle to the Magnesians
“CHAPTER 7
7:1 Therefore as the Lord did nothing without the Father, [being united with Him],”
earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-lightfoot.html

The unity of them is continually repeated…
He opens his Epistle to the Philadelphians
“Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, to the church of God the Father and of Jesus Christ, which is in Philadelphia of Asia…”
earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-philadelphians-lightfoot.html
Epistle to the Magnesians

Again in his opening address to his Epistle the Romans
“Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her that hath found mercy in the bountifulness of the Father Most High and of Jesus Christ His only Son; to the church that is beloved and enlightened through the will of Him who willed all things that are, by faith and love towards Jesus Christ our God; even unto her that hath the presidency in the country of the region of the Romans, being worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of felicitation, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy in purity, and having the presidency of love, walking in the law of Christ and bearing the Father’s name; which church also I salute in the name
of Jesus Christ the Son of the Father; unto them that in flesh and spirit are united unto His every commandment, being filled with the grace of God without wavering, and filtered clear from every foreign stain; abundant greeting in Jesus Christ our God in blamelessness.”
earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-magnesians-lightfoot.html

Epistle to the Ephesians
CHAPTER 5
5:1 For if I in a short time had such converse with your bishop, which was not after the manner of men but in the Spirit, how much more do I congratulate you who are closely joined with him as the Church is with Jesus Christ and as Jesus Christ is with the Father, that all things may be harmonious in unity.
earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-ephesians-lightfoot.html

This is consistant. Jesus and God united. Evidence from the Gospels - recounting Jesus before Paul, and the Epistles of Ignatius, after Paul

 

[inJESUS]

The Qur’an does however say that the followers of Jesus (as) adopted practises and teachings that God did not ordain for them, so that’s the primarily inspiration of some Muslims seeking for such things in the writings of Paul.

the Quran does not mention Paul as a follower of Jesus. The tafasir do.

Explaining a verse , Ibn Kathir says:

means, ‘We supported and strengthened them with a third Messenger.’ Ibn Jurayj narrated from Wahb bin Sulayman, from Shu’ayb Al-Jaba’i, "The names of the first two Messengers were Sham’un (Peter) and Yuhanna (John), and the name of the third was Bulus (Paul), and the city was Antioch…

At least Ibn Kathir did not share your view.

وأخرج ابن أبي حاتم عن شعيب الجبائي قال‏:‏ اسم الرسولين اللذين قالا ‏{‏إذ أرسلنا إليهم اثنين‏}‏ شمعون‏.‏ ويوحنا‏.‏ واسم ‏(‏الثالث‏)‏ بولص‏.

Narrated Ibn Abi Hatim by the authority of Shuwaib Al Jabâ’ayee who said: The names of the first two messengers were Simon and John. And the name of the third one was Paul.

Al-Suyuti as well did not share your view.

“Among the apostles and those disciples around them, whom Jesus sent out, there were Peter and his companion Paul.” (Thalabii, Qisas al-Anbiyaa)

Thalabii as well did not share your views.

Among the apostles, and the followers who came after them were the Apostle Peter and Paul who was a follower and not an apostle; they went to Rome. Andrew and Matthew were sent to the country… (Tabari, History, Volume IV)

Tabari as well did not share your views.

He goes on to say :

“Abu Ja’far says: They assert that after Tiberius, Palestine and other parts of Syria were ruled by Gaius, son of Tiberius, for four years. He was succeeded by another son, Claudius, for fourteen years, following which Nero ruled for fourteen years. He slew Peter and crucified Paul head down. For four months Botlaius [Vittelius] ruled thereafter. Then Vespasian, father of Titus whom he sent to Jerusalem, ruled for ten years. Three years after his rise to power, forty years after the ascension of Jesus, Vespasian sent Titus to Jerusalem. Titus destroyed it and slew numerous Israelites in his wrath over the fate of Christ …”

Why is it ok for Paul to totally reverse the meanings of such verses to justify his beliefs about Jesus? Surely a stumbling stone that causes men to fall isn’t the same thing as a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation.

 

[Booklover]

He goes on to say :

"Abu Ja’far says: They assert that after Tiberius, Palestine and other parts of Syria were ruled by Gaius, son of Tiberius, for four years. He was succeeded by another son, Claudius, for fourteen years, following which Nero ruled for fourteen years. He slew Peter and crucified Paul head down.

 

[inJESUS]

"

They got their executions mixed up as well, since it was Peter who was crucified head down.

they got many historical events mixed up but well, the message matters more in this discussion …

 

[thedavidwilson]

Use of the Bible alone is enough to make such arguments.

I thought the bible was corrupted? So how can you base any arguement on the bible? I am soooo confused!